Ethics of eating meat.

Joined Feb 2011
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Humans have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to function more effectively and efficiently with meat in their diet. No amount of morality can change biological fact.

Humans have evolved over millions of years to live like cavemen too. But we became more efficient with agriculture because we know methods to make agriculture more efficient, just like we know methods to make a vegetarian diet more efficient. There are Olympic athletes who are vegetarians, so no, being a vegetarian wouldn't sacrifice your efficiency in a meaningful way unless if you're doing it wrong by not substituting the protein from plant products (beans).
 
Joined Jan 2017
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Sydney
Why can I not shake off the impression that given the power , vegetarian would make it compulsory ?
there is something saintly about it , also something deeply fanatical which for one find repellent
 
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Joined Apr 2018
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Paeania
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It's human nature to eat things they like, which may or may not be meat. But that's irrelevant. Humanity is intelligent enough to go against its urges, and recognize which of those urges cause unneeded suffering and which don't. Plus, argument by "nature" is a logical fallacy. It's the nature of some snake bites to poison you, and the medicine you take to combat it is unnatural. It's easier to claim you should not let the snake bite run its course because here the suffering being prevented is your own suffering.

Considering the very existence of vegetarians, the boundary on becoming vegetarians is clearly something that can be crossed by at least some people. Even if other people are mentally incapable of crossing it, the act of trying would at least push them closer to crossing the boundary. For people physically/financially unable to cross the boundary, that's fine.

I disagree with you that "argument from nature" is illegitimate. Sure, you can consider it a logical fallacy if you want - as many do. I think your frame of reference is limited, and such a dismissal is invalid and meaningless. It's the same when people say "oh, that's the slippery slope logical fallacy", as if that would somehow invalidate the argument in the real world. In practice, moral principles must by definition draw upon something less fluid than abstract reason, otherwise they are arbitrary. Examples of less arbitrary bases for moral principles: biology, religion, the sociological circumstances of human beings in large groups, geography, the laws of physics. Etc. Etc. Etc. If you don't draw on such higher principles and accept their existance and strive to live in accordance with them, your morality is just as good as anybody else's, and in the real world there is no argument for what you say, besides "I think so". This is fine, if a majority agrees with you, you will probably have your way.

So, if morality comes from something higher than just what the individual thinks is rational and desirable in the present (survival perhaps? Or a sense of reverence towards the world and our place in it?) it also is logical to adopt a somewhat cautious approach to changing human nature (unless you think you have the absolute truth, a dangerous and hubristic supposition). It in fact makes sense to respect our nature, even if we must change. How is this done? Well, good question - there are many answers. My beef with Yohanion and veganism/ vegetarianism isn't so much in what is said as in the reasons for why it's said to be good and the general whiff of totalitarian fanaticism that my spidersense picks up: it's "irratonal", it "diminishes suffering", "etc. etc. All of these are fine arguments, but they are not a complete tally of the entire field of human morality. If you want to form a completely vegetarian society, alright. But it's not going to be my society. And your society is not going to be morally superior - just morally different. People are certainly allowed to be vegetarians and I respect those who follow the principle of limiting suffering to its fanatically pacifistic logical conclusion, provided they leave me alone. A lot of vegetarians and vegans don't seem to go that far though, and especially seem to have a problem with this last part.

Once again, I think there are other consideratons, and I think staying true to our "more primitive nature" is one such consideration, as I think it helps to save us from the worst forms of nihilism and perverted behaviour. Respecting hierarchies between different life-forms is another such consideration. Respecting the consequences of potential unknowns (as many have pointed out, we are evolutionarily deveoloped to function optimally while eating meat) is another one. You can respect "nature" while being a vegetarian too, on the individual level. I'm just not sure it can be done on the social level, at least not in my society - and I think it's irresponsible as well as frivolous to try.
 
Joined Feb 2012
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Nowhere
You keep using these abstract categories "sentience", "voluntary". Look, my dog is more valuable to me than some people. Morality and ethics are often a serious of concentric and hierarchical relationships the way I see it. Maybe there are rules, but even if they would always be the same they might have to be applied differently in different circumstances. I think these are difficult questions and it seems you are blinding yourself to many aspect of what makes or does not make something right or wrong.

The abolishment of slavery was not really that gradual. But it's all irrelevant: the point is that we still have laws against it, and that we did not evolve to stop treating people as our inferiors by making them slaves, or something similar. It is also not a correct analogy. Slavery is not binary in social reality, only in the way we talk about it as a concept, or idea. There is chattel slavery, ...-slavery, wage-slavery (arguably). A similar comparison with eating meat/ not eating meat would be if we went from a society of slavery to a communist paradise. We didn't, instead we still have hierarchical societies where the most extreme forms of dependence (those we happen to legally classify as "slavery") etc are forbidden by law.

What does free will have to do with my argument? Whether an act is voluntary or not can be relevant for morality yes, but I think other things are also relevant. I am acted upon against my will all the time. Just yesterday there were a bunch of hoodlums playing loud hip-hop music on the beach near my house. When I walk around in certain parts of Stockholm I am forced to see incredibly ugly buildings. I did not choose any of this, is it immoral? Perhaps we should ban all these things because I didn't choose them? If I enter a contract to voluntarily allow someone to destroy my grave after I die, or to fight in a gladiatorial game, is that moral? If I have ... with my sister, and she wants to - is it moral? Voluntarism is an insufficient basis for morality. Sometimes voluntarism has nothing at all to do with morality.

No, my last question is not unrelated. You think it is unrelated because you believe that physical suffering and voluntarism are the only two criteria for what makes something moral or immoral (at least that I've seen you put forward). The last question is in fact very important, because its aims to set the boundaries for what morality is. If you can't answer that question, you have no convincing moral claims at all the way I see it.

What makes one principle better than another? The essence of morality is saying something is better than something else, somehow. I say that the tastiness, sense of meaning and whole set of cultural values that an individual and society can get from eating meat is legitimate, but I admit that there are moral downsides to it - as there are to practically everything. I just think the alternative you present of a vegetarian "utopia" would be morally worse, overall.

Why does physical pain mean that there is moral equivalence between animals and humans? Why is your assumption that such equivalence exists superior to mine that it does not?

I beg your pardon but may not have time for keeping this discussion.

Just some points:

-Your interlocutor is not the subject being debated.
- The forms of slavery you mention I believe are all crimes in Portugal punishable by law.
 
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Joined Apr 2018
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Paeania
I beg your pardon but may not have time for keeping this discussion.

Just some points:

-Your interlocutor is not the subject being debated.
- The forms of slavery you mention I believe are all crimes in Portugal punishable by law.

I'm sorry, but you don't understand my arguments.
 
Joined Feb 2012
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Nowhere
Why can I not shake off the impression that given the power , vegetarian would make it compulsory ?
there is something saintly about it , also something deeply fanatical which for one find repellent
Bear in mind that the vegetarian society is an hypothesis. It would still require time, natural changing of habits and tradition, maybe also better understanding of nutrition, so it is not something just around the corner.
 
Joined May 2016
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Portugal
Vegetarianism cann

Bear in mind that the vegetarian society is an hypothesis. It would still require time, natural changing of habits and tradion, maybe also better understanding of nutrition, so it is not something just around the corner.

Albeit I can understand that the idea can be appealing to some, such I can understand the appealing idea of the communism, of the libertarianism, and of Christian values, that seems to me always a dreamed utopia, in the realm of fiction.

In a cartoonist way it reminds me those skinny ..... in the miss universe that when asked what they want, they all answer: peace in the universe. Well, there are things that we really don’t disagree.

Yet, the radicalization that we see in (some) vegetarian/vegan sectors (in Portugal we have the PAN and the terrorist associated with them), concerns me, and concerns me about the future of democracy. The question often is not mutual respect, but imposing doctrines.
 
Joined Feb 2012
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Albeit I can understand that the idea can be appealing to some, such I can understand the appealing idea of the communism, of the libertarianism, and of Christian values, that seems to me always a dreamed utopia, in the realm of fiction.

In a cartoonist way it reminds me those skinny ..... in the miss universe that when asked what they want, they all answer: peace in the universe. Well, there are things that we really don’t disagree.

Yet, the radicalization that we see in (some) vegetarian/vegan sectors (in Portugal we have the PAN and the terrorist associated with them), concerns me, and concerns me about the future of democracy. The question often is not mutual respect, but imposing doctrines.
Don't know much about the members of PAN, but is hard to imagine vegetarians like the ones I've known, who are mostly non violent, involved in violent terrorist actions.
 
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Joined Jun 2014
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the whole moral issue depends on meat eating being dependent on killing the animal in question. does the moral issue apply to a scavenger? if eating meat is intrinsically "unethical" it rather ignores the fact that nature isn't that clear cut. cows (yes COWS) have been documented to eat meat This Poor Chicken Got Eaten by a Cow. WHALES actually are carnivores. So are all dolphins. Krill may not seem particularly "alive" but they are NOT plants. Krill | National Geographic All insectivores are carnivores by definition. And without carnivores, the ecosystem doesn't work particularly well.
 
Joined May 2016
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Portugal
the whole moral issue depends on meat eating being dependent on killing the animal in question. does the moral issue apply to a scavenger? if eating meat is intrinsically "unethical" it rather ignores the fact that nature isn't that clear cut. cows (yes COWS) have been documented to eat meat This Poor Chicken Got Eaten by a Cow. WHALES actually are carnivores. So are all dolphins. Krill may not seem particularly "alive" but they are NOT plants. Krill | National Geographic All insectivores are carnivores by definition. And without carnivores, the ecosystem doesn't work particularly well.

Some years ago, when at Wednesdays we passed movies to the kids at school, I elected a documentary (I think that was from National Geographic) that was about the life of a feline (don’t recall exactly which feline).

There was a scene where the feline, weak, after long days without eating, finally was able to hunt a gazelle, or a similar animal.

It was curious the reactions of the kids. Some were very sad when they saw the beautiful gazelle begin eaten. Others rejoiced because the feline would be able to survive.

Some asked my opinion, and I really didn’t had an answer for those kids. For me, it was sad to see the gazelle dying? Yes, it was. It would be sad to see the feline dying? Yes, it would. There are no simple answers. But let us not blame the plants, that we hardly understand, for all.
 
Joined May 2016
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That group is well known, the point is whether they are vegans or vegetarians? Many activists are not.

That I can't say. Never lunched with them.


What I do know, is that politically, the PAN represents and tries to represent the interests of the Vegetarians and Vegans to gather their vote. And this is relevant since it is becoming a political issue.
 
Joined Feb 2012
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Nowhere
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That I can't say. Never lunched with them.


What I do know, is that politically, the PAN represents and tries to represent the interests of the Vegetarians and Vegans to gather their vote. And this is relevant since it is becoming a political issue.
They didn't look vegans judging by the images shown at the time because vegans tend to have low body mass index.
It is doubtful that the majority of animal rights activists are vegans or that the majority of the voters of PAN are. Even though is possible it is not easy for people to become vegans. Or better saying many people don't find it easy.
 
Joined Jun 2014
6,668 Posts | 67+
California
Some years ago, when at Wednesdays we passed movies to the kids at school, I elected a documentary (I think that was from National Geographic) that was about the life of a feline (don’t recall exactly which feline).

There was a scene where the feline, weak, after long days without eating, finally was able to hunt a gazelle, or a similar animal.

It was curious the reactions of the kids. Some were very sad when they saw the beautiful gazelle begin eaten. Others rejoiced because the feline would be able to survive.

Some asked my opinion, and I really didn’t had an answer for those kids. For me, it was sad to see the gazelle dying? Yes, it was. It would be sad to see the feline dying? Yes, it would. There are no simple answers. But let us not blame the plants, that we hardly understand, for all.
I don't blame plants for anything. However, anyone who spends the least amount of time studying agriculture would be very aware that in order to grow enough food to provide for humans to be vegan, it is necessary to cultivate large swaths of land. All such clearing inevitably has it's environmental effect. Animals that live there may not be able to live in a cultivated field. WE may not want them to live in that cultivated field. insecticides abound. Deer fencing. rabbit fencing -- we don't want other animals to eat the food we need. My view is that it is impossible, given our biology and the biology of nature for any animal to exist that avoids adversely impacting some other animal or plant. even PLANTS do it. Taller trees stifle the growth of smaller trees. A lot of California native plants actually require fire and this has been known for some time. Fire and Nutrient Cycling in Temperate Ecosystems but equally obviously, some plants and animals die in fires. That doesn't make the fire good or bad. In terms of the response of people to seeing death -- certainly. But it is an indication of our lack of understanding and acceptance that Nature is neither good nor bad, and cats are no more bad than gazelles are good. The raising of animals for food is simply a technological change from when all humans had to hunt for food. It is no more ethical -- or un ethical than a lion or a wolf or a cheetah doing so, and no more ethical or unethical than chimpanzees eating termites. There's no better ethics in elephants toppling trees for food or in herds of deer eating the bark of trees and destroying them. When elephants enlarge water holes.Elephants dig for water - Africa Geographic they don't particularly concern themselves if zebra will or won't benefit from that -- any more than they concern themselves with leaving enough water FOR the zebras. When Elephants transform an area from savanna to grassland some other animals (and plants) benefit and others suffer. I don't find humans that eat meat are any less ethical than vegans. I don't find that vegans are any less ethical than those who eat meat. The issue of if these choices are ecologically sound or biologically sound is an entirely different issue as are the methods employed for obtaining one's food.
 
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Joined Feb 2011
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I disagree with you that "argument from nature" is illegitimate. Sure, you can consider it a logical fallacy if you want - as many do. I think your frame of reference is limited, and such a dismissal is invalid and meaningless. It's the same when people say "oh, that's the slippery slope logical fallacy", as if that would somehow invalidate the argument in the real world. In practice, moral principles must by definition draw upon something less fluid than abstract reason, otherwise they are arbitrary. Examples of less arbitrary bases for moral principles: biology, religion, the sociological circumstances of human beings in large groups, geography, the laws of physics. Etc. Etc. Etc. If you don't draw on such higher principles and accept their existance and strive to live in accordance with them, your morality is just as good as anybody else's, and in the real world there is no argument for what you say, besides "I think so". This is fine, if a majority agrees with you, you will probably have your way.

I gave you an example why "argument from nature" is illegitimate: A poisonous snake bite is natural but that doesn't mean it's OK.
You say my frame of reference is limited. OK, care to be specific on as to why?

So, if morality comes from something higher than just what the individual thinks is rational and desirable in the present (survival perhaps? Or a sense of reverence towards the world and our place in it?) it also is logical to adopt a somewhat cautious approach to changing human nature (unless you think you have the absolute truth, a dangerous and hubristic supposition). It in fact makes sense to respect our nature, even if we must change. How is this done? Well, good question - there are many answers. My beef with Yohanion and veganism/ vegetarianism isn't so much in what is said as in the reasons for why it's said to be good and the general whiff of totalitarian fanaticism that my spidersense picks up: it's "irratonal", it "diminishes suffering", "etc. etc. All of these are fine arguments, but they are not a complete tally of the entire field of human morality. If you want to form a completely vegetarian society, alright. But it's not going to be my society. And your society is not going to be morally superior - just morally different. People are certainly allowed to be vegetarians and I respect those who follow the principle of limiting suffering to its fanatically pacifistic logical conclusion, provided they leave me alone. A lot of vegetarians and vegans don't seem to go that far though, and especially seem to have a problem with this last part.

Once again, I think there are other consideratons, and I think staying true to our "more primitive nature" is one such consideration, as I think it helps to save us from the worst forms of nihilism and perverted behaviour. Respecting hierarchies between different life-forms is another such consideration. Respecting the consequences of potential unknowns (as many have pointed out, we are evolutionarily deveoloped to function optimally while eating meat) is another one. You can respect "nature" while being a vegetarian too, on the individual level. I'm just not sure it can be done on the social level, at least not in my society - and I think it's irresponsible as well as frivolous to try.

If morality comes from something higher than just what the individual thinks is rational and desirable, it doesn't mean you the individual is correct either. Maybe there isn't an absolute truth, but that means all the things you espout here aren't absolute truths either.
Staying true to our "more primitive nature" can mean living like a caveman. You won't stay true to that "more primitive nature" because it hurts you. Likewise I don't think we should kill sentient animals unless if it can't be helped because it hurts THEM, not just you. I can respect you and kill you, but from your perspective I would imagine you simply don't want to be killed.
 
Joined Feb 2011
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Agreed.

And for people ethically unable to cross it?

Ethics is very vague. If you kill a deer because their population is growing out of control, and you believe ethically since the deer meat would go to waste if you don't eat it, then I don't see what's wrong with that.
If eating sentient beings is a part of your religion, that's harder for me to say. I imagine if human sacrifice is concerned, most people would forbid it no matter how much it infringes upon religious freedom. Animals are simply seen as having less right to life. I'm not sure how much I agree with that. I'd save a loyal dog over a mass murderer any day. So it really depends on the details here.
 
Joined May 2016
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Portugal
They didn't look vegans judging by the images shown at the time because vegans tend to have low body mass index.

In the photo they look body builders, at least that was my first thought.

It is doubtful that the majority of animal rights activists are vegans or that the majority of the voters of PAN are.

I don’t know, I imagine that the reverse is true. I just mentioned them because today they are the visible political face of the ones that entitled themselves as defenders of the animals, vegans and vegetarians. That means that the theme already gained a political perspective and the proposals of the party are often an attempt against the animal human democracy.

I don't blame plants for anything.

Let me just note that I wasn’t accusing you of that. For the rest of the post I fully agree.
 
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