Ethics of eating meat.

Joined Jun 2017
4,052 Posts | 2,870+
maine
It's the petty, church-.... like moralism and self-righteous attitude that often seems to come with veganism and vegetarianism that I find intolerable.
No one likes to be preached at--but just read some of the posts here and you'll understand why vegetarians and vegans are so defensive. And if every time you were asked to dinner, you were served a dish of lettuce--you'd become pretty surly too. :)
 
Joined Apr 2018
3,115 Posts | 1,300+
Paeania
Animals have no capacity for moral reasoning, humans have.
Humans have a special relationship with each other which requires certain duties, and with duties comes responsibility and rights.
Since animals are not sentient, neither they have duties or any sort of complex shared interest with humans, they do not deserve the same rights as humans do, but overall some animals, specially domesticated, share some interests with us and are largely dependent on us. Therefore they should have some rights, although not the same as the rights deserved for humans.
Yeah I agree to a degree.

EDIT: I am not sure ethical obligations are that related to our capacity for reasoning though, I think ethics are in some sense largely intuitive... and ethics... it's largely an aesthetic as well as an existential question to me, not primarily an "ethical" one... however if it was an ethical one, I would reason almost as you do, I think...
Wild animals on the other hand deserve the utmost protection and non-intervention or intrusion of their habitat as much as possible.
No, I don't agree really - I think! We should become more wilder ourselves, in my utopia every family has at least an uncle that hunts regularly and brings game home to all his relatives.

EDIT: Well yes, I do agree that wild animals like Lions, Tortoises or Whales or w/e shouldn't be disturbed, I think we had different definitions of wild animals and I instinctively thought of deer hahaha...
 
Joined Apr 2018
3,115 Posts | 1,300+
Paeania
Last edited:
No one likes to be preached at--but just read some of the posts here and you'll understand why vegetarians and vegans are so defensive. And if every time you were asked to dinner, you were served a dish of lettuce--you'd become pretty surly too. :)
Well...

It's not really an easily soluble problem. Food is primal, and one of the most intimate parts of human culture. I think people's attitude to food is somewhere on the spectrum between ... (it's pleasure, divine, fantastic) or going to the toilet (meh, it's a necessity). If they have the first attitude you've insulted them implicitly by defecating on their values, life-choices culture etc to such a degree that you maybe shouldn't have been invited to dinner in in the first place... if it's the second attitude you're an annoying prig, or seem a bit spoiled maybe, like the kid who wouldn't eat fish in school and so one thinks maybe that person should just eat what's offered, as the animal is dead anyway, you didn't buy it to contribute to demand, and if you don't it's probably just going to be put in the freezer for later consumption...

On the other hand, there is a someone I used to love who was EXTREMELY vegan, if you care enough about the person you cook them the kind of meal they'd like. Even if they're annoying about it.
 
Joined Jun 2017
4,052 Posts | 2,870+
maine
Well...

It's not really an easily soluble problem. Food is primal, and one of the most intimate parts of human culture. I think people's attitude to food is somewhere on the spectrum between ... (it's pleasure, divine, fantastic) or going to the toilet (meh, it's a necessity). If they have the first attitude you've insulted them implicitly by defecating on their values, life-choices culture etc to such a degree that you maybe shouldn't have been invited to dinner in in the first place... if it's the second attitude you're an annoying prig, or seem a bit spoiled maybe, like the kid who wouldn't eat fish in school and so one thinks maybe that person should just eat what's offered, as the animal is dead anyway, you didn't buy it to contribute to demand, and if you don't it's probably just going to be put in the freezer for later consumption...

On the other hand, there is a someone I used to love who was EXTREMELY vegan, if you care enough about the person you cook them the kind of meal they'd like. Even if they're annoying about it.
Well, that puts me in my place,
 
Joined Apr 2018
3,115 Posts | 1,300+
Paeania
Last edited:
Well, that puts me in my place,
Hey, I admitted room for caring about other people unconditionally!!!

EDIT: kind of unconditionally

2nd EDIT: We all have our irrational religious impulses, friends tolerate them, and good friends should even enjoy your eccentricities and cook you good vegan food on the side, it’s not that difficult… ;)

So I guess, my condolences about the lettuce… 🥬 maybe at least an artichoke next time?
 
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
No, I don't agree really - I think! We should become more wilder ourselves, in my utopia every family has at least an uncle that hunts regularly and brings game home to all his relatives.
That would be catastrophic to the deer population and ecosystem.
That would make sense at a lower scale with the purpose of deer population control, and had to be highly regulated.
 
Joined Dec 2021
8,823 Posts | 4,298+
Australia
Hey, I admitted room for caring about other people unconditionally!!!

EDIT: kind of unconditionally
Really. Can't say I've ever noticed it, and most certainly not from my dysfunctional parents.

As for food, I'm a carnivore and don't apologise for a second. These days I eat mainly chicken because red meat is relatively expensive. Eat far less bacon and other preserved meats these days due to diabetes.

I do my best to be accepting of vegetarian and vegan friends, and have been known to serve only vegan finger food at a party (once) I've also been fed both vegetarian and vegan food as a main course. It was fine, but I don't want to do it again. Last time was in 1991.

Having said that, future generations may not have much of a choice, as the production of red meat may become unsustainable. Seems to me the so-called developed nations may end up eating insects, as they do in say Mexico and parts of Asia. There's a high reputation precedent in the old testament, where they ate locusts I have the impression those creatures may be eaten as part of a kosher diet, but I might be wrong.

Leviticus 11.22 "Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind' (KJV)
 
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Joined Sep 2012
10,340 Posts | 4,400+
Bulgaria
Serial killers and cons can be the sweetest..
.. well, if you put enough sugar in the stew probably. The Ancient Greek tragedy about the revenge of Medea pops in my mind, she took vengeance on her ex by murdering her own sons to Jason, cooked them, and then served them to him. The conclusion of this story, aside from dont be around your ex after the divorce, is be very cautious about what you eat slash what other ppl serve ya. The vegetarians also have vices btw, for example they are unable to devour the heart & the liver of a serial killer or a nazi to make a point, as condemnation of certain ideology in the latter case or deeds of this individual in the first one.
 
Joined Jul 2014
2,556 Posts | 558+
world
Vegans are a annoying bunch 🙄 and their definition of living things actally don't include small worms and microbes. I have seen their propaganda first hand in Nepal where they co-opted buddhist monasteries along with it. That is why most of the Tibetan monasteries in nepal/india are veg only now 🙄 and not a few in Tibet. The monks would starve to death imitating Buddhist monks of India/China before admitting that they need meat diet especially in high Himalayas and plateaus. There is no native vegetables ... even the word for vegetable is a loanword from Chinese .

But I agree with their ideology on some points. Why eat meat if there is an valid alternative ? Growing meatstock is quite harmful to ecology and alternative foods like tofu and artificial meat is quite delicious if cooked right.

I have eaten artificial meat in Australia and it tasted not bad though cost of it gave me a mini hear attack.

Vegans have generally good intentions but the way they go about preaching is quite harmful to tbeir image.
 
Joined Sep 2012
10,340 Posts | 4,400+
Bulgaria
My grandfather told me that there are two types of people that you should never annoy: cops and anyone who serves you food.
Clever man, I read all this stuff as a kid, took the book from the local library back then in the old times, the dumb commies didnt have much of parental control, if only Jason was a vegetarian and Oedipus was an eunuch.
 
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Joined Apr 2018
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Paeania
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That would be catastrophic to the deer population and ecosystem.
That would make sense at a lower scale with the purpose of deer population control, and had to be highly regulated.
Nah, catastrophic is a bit strong I think — but okay, maybe ”second cousin” and not uncle then. :p As for the eco-system, they’re not that crucial. At least here ALL deer can be hunted ANYWHERE in the country from like oktober to january this year. So yeah, regulation of some kind is probably necessary but I really don’t think it needs to be ”heavy”…

It also probably depends on the country. In Sweden we have like 300 000 hunters, not counting the Sami monopoly on reindeer herding… take somewhere like Russia or Canada, and the situation is even more so. So human population density, geography and how much forest you have etc. are the defining factors. But yeah, obviously they shouldn’t be hunted to extinction, but I don’t think it’s good that they eat the tulips of practically every garden…

Fortunately there’s no need to just hunt deer, and they look so cute so I agree… reindeer, moose, rabbits… wild boar… there’s a lot of tasty things in the forest. If you slaughter a whole moose you have like 1-250 kgs of meet, depending, that can be feed a lot of people for a lot of time…
 
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Joined Apr 2018
490 Posts | 325+
Canada
True we are all animals.

In hunter gatherer times we could gather some wild plants for sustenance but we still needed to hunt animals for food and clothing/shelter materials.With the rise of agriculture more food could be grown as well as more animals kept for the reasons above.

Is it immoral or unethical to kill these animals for basic needs : no.Is it immoral or unethical to kill a rhino or elephant only for it's ivory then i would say yes.

Amongst the animals there is an hierarchy of predator and prey the prey being consumed for sustenance by a predator who may in turn be prey for another predator.

The most notable distinction is that most animal predators kill prey for what they immediately need whereas humans can slaughter animals and themselves on a grand scale for motives that have nothing to do with basic survival.
 
Joined Jun 2018
814 Posts | 215+
Philadelphia, PA
My personal stance on this is that it is morally wrong to slaughter an animal for meat, but two things. First, obviously, in cases where it is necessary for survival. Second, eating the meat of a slaughtered animal is not morally wrong because to not do so would mean that they went through that in vain and someone else will just eat it anyway.
 
Joined Feb 2012
5,955 Posts | 681+
Nowhere
Why do you ignore the real part of the argument, while taking the fluff as being real?
If your "argument" is an irony the reply is #461, if it is to be taken literally, it is #459 and if there is any other interpretation, maybe you care to explain.

There should be legislation to protect insects? Yes, sure, if it is necessary for the environment and survival absolutely. Bees dying off are a problem, for ex. But should they have "rights"? I am not sure this is the same thing...
About the legal framework, maybe you should discuss with someone more knowledgeable of the subject, I do think there should be legislation to protect them from us when necessary and not only out off the benefits they might pose for us, but out of respect and acknowledgment that they are too sentient beings; and maybe, regarding cats and dogs, that legislation could ban the possession of such animals or restrict it to small specimens and the number each person might have, both thinking on their well being, ours, and environmental protection.
 
Joined Oct 2011
40,550 Posts | 7,631+
Italy, Lago Maggiore
The arguments about defending living beings are specious.
On a daily base we all kill a lot of animals, even without noting it: mites. We kill mites while we are sleeping and we don't care.
Now, persons who are allergic use a particular mattress and so they don't kill mites while they are sleeping, but a lot of us, vegetarians and vegans included, kill mites while they are sleeping. They simply don't know this.

Personally I don't mind: an acarus will never influence my life. Come on!
 
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Joined Sep 2012
10,340 Posts | 4,400+
Bulgaria
... to be vegetarian is way of life, the vegetarians I know including myself dont care about this 'moral dilemma', it just the way it is, one can have a healthy life without it and because of decades of not eating flesh, we dont need it, of course if I starve or someone threatens me with gun eat or die, I am gonna digest it somehow, no doubt, also we like to tease the omnivores and their bloodthirsty habits, if they work hard enough, they could become vampires, after all Dracula & co are simply cannibals with good table manners (taken from Ravenous 1999 movie).
 
Joined Feb 2017
1,811 Posts | 1,715+
Minneapolis
It's a tough question: Are humans morally superior to other animals? My instincts say yes, but the arguments siting the exclusivity of "sentience" or "rational thinking" seem thin to me, especially in light of what we've been learning about animal behavior in the last couple of decades. (See Frans de Waal's Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are, or John Gray's wonderful meditation on human-animal relations, Feline Philosophy: Cats and the Meaning of Life.)

More visceral is the footage of a blue whale in the opening sequence to David Attenborough's documentary, Blue Planet: Seas of Life. The photography team found one and used an ultralight aircraft to drop a diver in front of it (boats can't keep up because blue whales cruise too fast). As the largest animal that ever existed moves toward and past the diver, Attenborough narrates some facts -- heart as large as an elephant, blood vessels a person can swim through, and so on. The moment is sublime. And I'm thinking, "So I'm a superior being? Hmm, huh, who the heck am I kidding?"

Despite not thinking myself morally superior to animals, I still eat meat and I've done a fair amount of hunting, including killing deer. We're killers. As @AlpinLuke alludes, we kill without knowing it. Farming, of course, probably kills more animals than just about anything else due to habitat loss and pest control, so few vegetarians' hands would be blood free.

I always loved this passage from Aldo Leopold's, Sand County Almanac:

There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.
 

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