God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible -- Almost

Joined May 2011
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Stories change over time. Not really surprising nor nessisary to try and prove if one specific story came directly before some other specific story. Names change :) It is interesting from a historical perspective, yes as an idea, but I don't suppose there is enough full understanding of ancient times to prove anything and hence, no point in really trying. The only goal would be to upset current religious followers who would not like the way such a claim is presented. And I would maintain that trying to draw connections with the goal of upsetting people is not a noble deed.
 
Joined Mar 2011
3,403 Posts | 0+
just sitting here
You are spot on! But as some Hebrew became Canaanized, they replace Baal with Yaweh.
So then we are back to was yahweh just one of the gods, and his realm was canaan, and if you wanted to live there you had to worship yahweh and have no god above him,so he was a territorial god, not THE god of creation, but one of many gods who split the globe up into territories ,and ruled their own realm ? So do the Abrahamic religions have the same monotheistic god, possibly none of them worship the creation god.
 
Joined Jul 2009
12,444 Posts | 21+
Anatolia
There werent trinity in Jews. Existence of Gods wife would far more terribly confliction with Judaism.

Isnt It odd that they would include such things into their scripture. It is something like Catholic denie hollyness of Jesus, denieing trinity. It would actually kill Judaism, puting God into such standards.
 

vid

Joined Jun 2009
1,610 Posts | 2+
Slovakia
Richard: We find evidence polytheism all over, completely everywhere until Zoroastrianism (maybe 1000 BCE?). No trace of monotheism until then. The most obvious explanation is that monotheism evolved from polytheism.

As for flood, it is simply local rehash of old flood myth, whose much older (polytheistic) version we have extant. Same scenario as with Garden of Eden myth.
 
Joined Jan 2009
8,299 Posts | 3+
Tennessee
Richard: We find evidence polytheism all over, completely everywhere until Zoroastrianism (maybe 1000 BCE?). No trace of monotheism until then. The most obvious explanation is that monotheism evolved from polytheism.

As for flood, it is simply local rehash of old flood myth, whose much older (polytheistic) version we have extant. Same scenario as with Garden of Eden myth.

I wouldnt say that we find no trace of monotheism morphing into polytheism. Here is one trace, which is itself 2000 years old...

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things"....Romans 1:22-23

And there is also some other traces, though the trail is dim from the passage of so much time. Not henotheism, but primitive monotheism. Here is a dim mark on the trail, which those interested can pick up and follow if they choose...

Urmonotheismus in Encyclopedia

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urmonotheism"]Urmonotheismus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Am I correct to think that you may have an interest in pursuing this trail a bit further? If so, then I shall join you and we shall follow it together. If not then I will wander away to something else.

In the desert of the American Southwest, there are strange, dim trails that appear for a ways, then fade out. Sometimes the trail pops back up again, these trails of "the ancient ones", as they are sometimes called.

Such a trail have we here, in tracing the origins of monotheism. Dim, ancient, and faded...yet still there just enough to stimulate curiosity. :)
 
Joined Jul 2010
6,851 Posts | 10+
Not sure what it is
So then we are back to was yahweh just one of the gods, and his realm was canaan, and if you wanted to live there you had to worship yahweh and have no god above him,so he was a territorial god, not THE god of creation, but one of many gods who split the globe up into territories ,and ruled their own realm ? So do the Abrahamic religions have the same monotheistic god, possibly none of them worship the creation god.

No, no, no. In the orthodox mainstream Jewish belief there's only 1 God. The heretical minority were heavily chastised in the Bible.
 
Joined Jul 2010
6,851 Posts | 10+
Not sure what it is
Richard: We find evidence polytheism all over, completely everywhere until Zoroastrianism (maybe 1000 BCE?). No trace of monotheism until then. The most obvious explanation is that monotheism evolved from polytheism.

1000 BCE was a very long time ago. And you are wrong. Akenayten's religion existed around 1400~1300 BCE. But you are most wrong by assuming monotheism necessarily evolved from polytheism. Do you have any proof that divine revelation does not exist?


As for flood, it is simply local rehash of old flood myth, whose much older (polytheistic) version we have extant. Same scenario as with Garden of Eden myth.

Flood myth is not local. It is pretty much global. Chinese also has quite a bit of massive world flood myths. And there are many others.
 
Joined Mar 2011
3,403 Posts | 0+
just sitting here
No, no, no. In the orthodox mainstream Jewish belief there's only 1 God. The heretical minority were heavily chastised in the Bible.
Well come on then wise me up, i come on here to learn, i thought that from reading the bible the jews took a covenant with yahweh for him to be their only god , later christianity split off , and we also worship 1 god ( I do consider myself christian even though i have doubts that jesus was the son of god literally ,so christans who beleive he was devine may say i am not a christian then ?) i consider the god i worship is the creator god , but as he is only ever spoken of in church as god ,am i expected to think he is the same 1 as yahweh , and allah ?
i expect this all sounds very naive to all of you , but i just hope you are not all as confused as i am, and someone can explain !
 

vid

Joined Jun 2009
1,610 Posts | 2+
Slovakia
1000 BCE was a very long time ago. And you are wrong. Akenayten's religion existed around 1400~1300 BCE.
Can we safely call that monotheism? I've never looked into this, but from skimming over his wiki page I'm at doubts.

But you are most wrong by assuming monotheism necessarily evolved from polytheism. Do you have any proof that divine revelation does not exist?
You are asking for impossible (see [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence]Evidence of absence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]). What we know for sure is that if some monotheistic god divinely revealed himself to anyone before ~1000 BCE, they didn't accept him, or their religion left no records from which their monotheism is discernible.

Mandate of Heaven said:
As for flood, it is simply local rehash of old flood myth, whose much older (polytheistic) version we have extant. Same scenario as with Garden of Eden myth.
Flood myth is not local. It is pretty much global. Chinese also has quite a bit of massive world flood myths. And there are many others.
I didn't say flood myth is local.

Richard Stanbery said:
vid said:
We find evidence polytheism all over, completely everywhere until Zoroastrianism (maybe 1000 BCE?). No trace of monotheism until then. The most obvious explanation is that monotheism evolved from polytheism.
I wouldnt say that we find no trace of monotheism morphing into polytheism.
I didn't say we don't find traces of monotheism morphing into polytheism. I said we don't find traces of monotheism prior to certain point in history, until then we only find polytheism.
 
Joined Jul 2010
6,851 Posts | 10+
Not sure what it is
Can we safely call that monotheism? I've never looked into this, but from skimming over his wiki page I'm at doubts.[/quote]

Let me quote his wike page:

In Year 5 of his reign, Amenhotep IV(later Akhenaten) took decisive steps to establish the Aten as the exclusive, monotheistic god of Egypt. I think we can safely call establishing the exclusive, monotheistic god, monotheism.


You are asking for impossible (see Evidence of absence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). What we know for sure is that if some monotheistic god divinely revealed himself to anyone before ~1000 BCE, they didn't accept him, or their religion left no records from which their monotheism is discernible.

If you don't have the evidence, don't make the claim. Even if asking for the evidence is not possible. That is being objective and rational.

I didn't say we don't find traces of monotheism morphing into polytheism. I said we don't find traces of monotheism prior to certain point in history, until then we only find polytheism.

If you read Karen Armstrong's books(ie. The Great Transformation, The History of God, etc.), early people were clearly monotheistic of a Sky God. Yes, it was true even in China. It was that global.
 
Joined Jul 2010
6,851 Posts | 10+
Not sure what it is
Well come on then wise me up, i come on here to learn, i thought that from reading the bible the jews took a covenant with yahweh for him to be their only god , later christianity split off , and we also worship 1 god ( I do consider myself christian even though i have doubts that jesus was the son of god literally ,so christans who beleive he was devine may say i am not a christian then ?) i consider the god i worship is the creator god , but as he is only ever spoken of in church as god ,am i expected to think he is the same 1 as yahweh , and allah ?
i expect this all sounds very naive to all of you , but i just hope you are not all as confused as i am, and someone can explain !

There are tons of evidence that Jesus is God in the Hebrew Bible. It's just that Jews choose not to see them. If you consider your God to be the Creator God then you must recognize Jesus to be God.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

All things were made through Jesus.
 
Joined Jan 2009
8,299 Posts | 3+
Tennessee
Last edited:
Vid, I have considered your point that we only find polytheism in the earliest religions. But I do think that it would be rather wrong for us to make this assumption. After all, the number one comes before the number two. One would have to be aware of one god before they could be aware of the second god.

We should look before the Egyptian monotheism for evidence in this subject.

As to what was the oldest primitive religion...here is a few links to show us some things.

afrol News - World's oldest religion discovered in Botswana

HINDUISM, THE WORLD'S OLDEST RELIGION

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_views_on_monotheism"]Hindu views on monotheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Or, one could look a little closer to Hinduism and the influence that it possibly had over the middle east. "Om", the sound the universe makes, could be said as an expression of that which has no beginning and no end.

If Sanskrit and Hinduism are tied to the earliest known traces of religion on earth, and the oldest of the Vedic scripts contain passages of monotheism, then we must conclude that this is certainly more than just a trace of monotheism before 1000 BC.

In fact, the date 1000 BC is ridiculously late in the pondering of this question. I suspect that we would have to go back at least as far as the beginning of agriculture to determine whether monotheism was the original religion of mesopotamia. But the begining of Sanskrit writing does hint at monotheism in the earliest of the Vedas. At least hints at it, doesnt it?

And so, we can only conclude that the Gilgamesh stories of Mesopotamia would have been seen as merely recent inventions by those who knew of the Vedas (and other original religions upon which the vedas may have been based), and by a great many of the people of Ur. They knew that Marduk, Gilgamesh, etc, were much later religious inventions.

We know the Vedas today, and we know that the Vedas (oldest ones) are much older than the Gilgamesh stories. And so, this is why I suspect the Bible has portrayed this timeline of events correctly to us, and that the original religions were indeed monotheistic, but there was a devolution towards polytheism that caught on world wide and permeated all other religions.

Polytheism was the PC (politically correct) ideology of that early day, while evolution is the PC (politically correct) ideology of today, for example. If we look to this in light of religious leanings, etc.

Much like we have evolution theory of today as a devolution, back before Abraham's day, it was polytheism that was the popular devolution of that day. One could look at it like that.

I bring that up to make a point (not to start a flame war), nor do I want to talk about evolution in this thread. I just want to point out that today, if one refuses to accept evolution then they will be an outcast and a rebel from official society. And this is the proper concept to place Abraham into in order to understand Abraham. He was an ideological rebel of his day.

And so, if we look at Sanskrit and the Vedas, we see that...
A...There was a strong monotheistic tone in the oldest of the vedas.
B...There would have to have been some influence of this on Mesopotamian culture of Abrahams day.
C...The vedas themselves would have had to have been based on some earlier oral tradition.

And so, with these thoughts in mind, we can address the OP in understanding my point that God's wife was not edited out of the Bible, as this concept was never part of it to start with. And, the earliest religions were monotheistic, and so this concept would have never been part of that either. The concept was edited into religious questions with the rise of polytheism, but that wasnt the earliest state of religion. It was simply a devolution process at work.

But, back to the OP....in order to determine of God's wife was indeed edited out of the Bible, lets determine if that was ever part of it to start with.

In the oldest Vedic texts, was there a wife associated with "Om", which is the concept that has no begining and no end?

And so, we come to the realization that polytheism is an extreme devolution. It goes from the higher concept of "no begining and no end", to a lower concept of flawed, semi-powerful deities that take on the lower and lesser polytheistic characteristics. And it is an extreme shift of concept. And it does indeed match exactly the explanation that the Bible gives us for this.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things"....Romans 1:22-23

And so, since we know that the oldest of the Vedas have monotheistic tones, and also that they are oral traditions that are probably much older than 1000 years old, and predate the brief Egyptian monotheism experiment, then we can only conclude that the Biblical explanations of this are all correct. The original religion was monotheistic, but a devolution took place that led into polytheism.

Abraham rebelled against this movement, and we go from there with the story of Abraham, monotheism, and Judaism. Abraham was searching for the original, one true God.
 

vid

Joined Jun 2009
1,610 Posts | 2+
Slovakia
Vid, I have considered your point that we only find polytheism in the earliest religions. But I do think that it would be rather wrong for us to make this assumption. After all, the number one comes before the number two. One would have to be aware of one god before they could be aware of the second god.
But keep in mind more ancient polytheistic gods were not like "our" abstract god. They were more material, they were embodiments of things like sea, thunder, love, etc. People have tendency to personalize everything (eg. arguing with your computer), and for primitive people with no understanding of science, finding some consciousness behind thing like weather is quite understandable. It is natural they "found" multiple such gods in their surroundings. Also note that early monotheism tend to ascribe multiple of such "earthly" attributes to their god (eg. Yahweh coming down in cloud with sound of thunder), which makes little sense for omni-everything god, but makes a lot of sense for god merged from various polytheistic gods (like from El's pantheon, the Elohim).

As for eastern religion (not just them, but especially them) one has to be make careful distinction between how ancient they claim to be, and how ancient history considers them. AFAIK there are significant differences there.
 
Joined Aug 2009
21,072 Posts | 10+
Minnesnowta
Im just saying that there are some assumptions we should shy away from until we know more about it, like what religious traditions existed in Mesopotamia before (long before) the Gilgamesh stuff and polytheism.

Is there a reason why you believe that the archeological record is lacking in this regard?

We do know what predated polytheism. It's called animism.
 
Joined Aug 2009
21,072 Posts | 10+
Minnesnowta
Vid, I have considered your point that we only find polytheism in the earliest religions. But I do think that it would be rather wrong for us to make this assumption. After all, the number one comes before the number two. One would have to be aware of one god before they could be aware of the second god.

I would suggest an in depth study of the history of religion Richard. We have a lot of evidence that predates the written record.

To answer your question, before we worshipped gods, we worshipped our dead relatives. I bolded relatives to highlight the fact that the word is in plural form. Our ancestors "evolved" into gods.
 
Joined Mar 2010
5,417 Posts | 8+
USA
This sounds like the kind of pagan idol worship condemned by the prophets. This alone undermines the assertion being made here.
 
Joined Aug 2009
21,072 Posts | 10+
Minnesnowta
This sounds like the kind of assertion that is made with certainty, as if backed by facts, yet not a single fact exists that can verify the assertion.
 
Joined Jan 2009
8,299 Posts | 3+
Tennessee
Last edited:
I would suggest an in depth study of the history of religion Richard. We have a lot of evidence that predates the written record.

To answer your question, before we worshipped gods, we worshipped our dead relatives. I bolded relatives to highlight the fact that the word is in plural form. Our ancestors "evolved" into gods.

Im sure we have all heard the story of the Garden of Eden, and how Satan took on the shape of a serpent and tricked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit. And also that there were afterwards the Nephelim, the "fallen ones" who would have, I suppose, allied themselves with the serpent (Satan) as enemies of God. And during this time, humanity grew ever more wicked.

I suppose a snake worshiping culture would be expected to come out of all of that. Seems logical enough.

Some would suppose that this was all just mythology that was extracted and developed from the parent Gilgamesh myth of Mesopotamian origins.

Key word being Mesopotamian origins.

Now, with that being said, let us go on down to Southern Africa.

Canadian finds oldest religious artifact

And so, we wonder, how is it that we find what has been called the worlds oldest known religious artifact...and in a context (pre-flood culture) that would nicely fit into the Biblical explanation of what happened to humanity after the fall of man, and leading up to the flood?

How is it that this artifact of such antiquity is found in Southern Africa, and fits nicely into the Biblical account, though it far pre-dates Mesopotamia and the Gilgamesh stories by such a long time?

Yet it still fits? What chance are the odds that this artifact would so closely fall into line with the Biblical "myth" of Mesopotamian origins, and from a far later time?

I would say that it would confirm the Biblical account. How do you explain this?
 
Joined Jan 2010
2,974 Posts | 1+
Incline Village near Lake Tahoe
I thought that the "Holy Spirit" is the femininity projection (not wife) of God. One God, three entities of God guiding man/women kind to eternity.
 
Joined Apr 2011
281 Posts | 1+
But wasn't it the holy ghost, according to the NT, that impregnated Mary? Or do you believe the holy ghost is androgenous? It's like when you tell a lie. You have to invent so many others to prop up the first one!
 

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