How Islamic was the Golden Age?

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One of the most notable arguments of Muslim apologists today was that Islam ushered the Golden Age and was the main catalyst behind it. Obviously Islamic civilization had a Golden Age where it excelled in mathematics, poetry, philosophy etc. It was arguably more advanced than the Christian world at the time. But how much of it was due to the religion of Islam itself? Apparently some notable Golden Age figures had some less than orthodox views when it came to religion. Al-Ma'arri apparently wrote "do not suppose the statements of the prophets to be true; they are all fabrications", Abu Isa al-Warraq was a critic of Islam and the Quran, Abu Nuwas' poems are censored in modern Muslim world, a Christian was placed in charge of the famous House of Wisdom in Baghdad, there were many other notable Christians during the Golden Age (Yusuf al-Khuri, Janus Damascenus, Jibril ibn Bakhtisha), al-Razi was also hardly an orthodox Muslim and was criticized by al-Biruni because of it, Omar Khayyam's religious convictions were also questioned and there is a lot of dispute regarding whether or not how religious he was etc. It seems that many important figures of the Golden Age were not quite orthodox Muslims but held a number of heterodox views. Now there were those like al-Biruni or Ibn Sina or Ibn Khaldun that espoused a clearly Islamic worldview. Even then al-Ghazali criticized them in his Tahāfut al-Falāsifa.
Now obviously this is a question that cannot boil down to simple yes or no and given the shifting nature of religious interpretation might not have a clear answer but I am interested in what other views are.
 
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If I'm not mistaken, al-Ghazali was a religious zealot.

But I suppose economical and scientific prosperity don't quite line up with religious orthodoxy. I get the impression that the consumption of wine for example was a bit more widespread than usually admitted, then or today, particularly in the Andalus, and the fundamentalist and austere Berber dynasties such as the Almoravids and Almohads reviled the Andalusians as morally degenerate (who in turn reviled them as uncivilized fanatics).

Plenty of nuance to go around.
 
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Al-Ghazali was. I pointed that he criticized other notable figures of the era due to their unconventional beliefs. And yes it seems that at the peak of Abbasid Golden Age the mu'tazila rationalist interpretation of Islam reigned and that interpretation was at odds with orthodox Sunnism. Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the founder of one of the four schools of Sunni Islam was persecuted by the caliphal authorities due to his adherence to Sunnism and not mu'tazila.
 
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"It is better for a man to fill the inside of his body with pus than to fill it with poetry."
Guess who
 
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"It is better for a man to fill the inside of his body with pus than to fill it with poetry."
Guess who
Bukhari 6155 for anyone interested. Of course it's an authentic narration.
 
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I'm just having a discussion with a coworker, and he is trying to convince me that the recent scientific Australian study confirms Bukhari 3320.

I thought I'd get a heart attack from laughing today, but I'm also kind of worried he is dead serious, not to mention the scorpion hadith
 
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Yeah claims by Muslim apologists can get pretty crazy. I mean the Shias are kind of right when they say Bukhari and Muslim make Muhammad look crazy.
 
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I personally never came across anyone saying the Islamic golden age came about as a result of an inherent value present in Islam and absent in other religions or something of the sort. Islamic scripture does place a good deal of importance on knowledge and education, but whether this directly influenced or motivated scholars or their patrons, we can't really say.

What we can objectively say, though, I guess, is that the stability and geographical unity that the Abbasid caliphate offered (direct result of the success of Islamic conquests a few centuries before it), as well as the personal interest of caliphs in patronage and support of scholars, allowed for intellectual mobility and cultural exchange in a way that would've been... let's say, more difficultly cultivated in other conditions.

As for the personal beliefs of Islamic scholars at the time, there's really no conclusive, overarching answer or assessment possible. Did they identify as Muslims? Were they considered Muslims by their contemporaries? What defines a Muslim? Do the non-orthodox religious views of a few scholars detach them from Islam or Islamic civilization? How do we define Islamic civilization? Et cetera, et cetera. 💃

This seems like an exercise in semantics more than anything. 😄
 
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One of the most notable arguments of Muslim apologists today was that Islam ushered the Golden Age and was the main catalyst behind it. Obviously Islamic civilization had a Golden Age where it excelled in mathematics, poetry, philosophy etc. It was arguably more advanced than the Christian world at the time. But how much of it was due to the religion of Islam itself? Apparently some notable Golden Age figures had some less than orthodox views when it came to religion. Al-Ma'arri apparently wrote "do not suppose the statements of the prophets to be true; they are all fabrications", Abu Isa al-Warraq was a critic of Islam and the Quran, Abu Nuwas' poems are censored in modern Muslim world, a Christian was placed in charge of the famous House of Wisdom in Baghdad, there were many other notable Christians during the Golden Age (Yusuf al-Khuri, Janus Damascenus, Jibril ibn Bakhtisha), al-Razi was also hardly an orthodox Muslim and was criticized by al-Biruni because of it, Omar Khayyam's religious convictions were also questioned and there is a lot of dispute regarding whether or not how religious he was etc. It seems that many important figures of the Golden Age were not quite orthodox Muslims but held a number of heterodox views. Now there were those like al-Biruni or Ibn Sina or Ibn Khaldun that espoused a clearly Islamic worldview. Even then al-Ghazali criticized them in his Tahāfut al-Falāsifa.
Now obviously this is a question that cannot boil down to simple yes or no and given the shifting nature of religious interpretation might not have a clear answer but I am interested in what other views are.
Not a very analytical answer, but I remember some Arabic primary source I read about a year ago (not in Arabic, I’m not insane) while doing some research for a completely different topic had a fun anecdote on this topic.

Apparently some Arab guy in... I think Baghdad... noted how many among the literati and administration were Persian. He had a comment along the lines of (quoting from memory here, not verbatim): They didn’t need us for 1000 years. Then we conquered them, but they still probably won’t need us for the next 1000.”
 
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I personally never came across anyone saying the Islamic golden age came about as a result of an inherent value present in Islam and absent in other religions or something of the sort. Islamic scripture does place a good deal of importance on knowledge and education, but whether this directly influenced or motivated scholars or their patrons, we can't really say.
I have. It is one of the main talking points of modern Muslim apologetic theory called Bucailleism.
 
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What do you mean "The Golden Age"? I realize you probably mean 8th to 14th century, but that was just one of many Golden Ages over Sapiens history. Uruk was one, Harrapan/Indus Valley Civilization was another, Rome would certainly be one, and the Anglo-American Empire could be considered another. Even with in Islam i would say Mughal Golden Age was unique from the Umayyad, one.

To me, a Golden age is a major flowering of empire building culture, technology, art. I think they last from 50 to 150 years and usually start from a single point and burst out in all directions.

Thanks for reading!

Plissken
 
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One of the most notable arguments of Muslim apologists today was that Islam ushered the Golden Age and was the main catalyst behind it. Obviously Islamic civilization had a Golden Age where it excelled in mathematics, poetry, philosophy etc. It was arguably more advanced than the Christian world at the time. But how much of it was due to the religion of Islam itself? Apparently some notable Golden Age figures had some less than orthodox views when it came to religion. Al-Ma'arri apparently wrote "do not suppose the statements of the prophets to be true; they are all fabrications", Abu Isa al-Warraq was a critic of Islam and the Quran, Abu Nuwas' poems are censored in modern Muslim world, a Christian was placed in charge of the famous House of Wisdom in Baghdad, there were many other notable Christians during the Golden Age (Yusuf al-Khuri, Janus Damascenus, Jibril ibn Bakhtisha), al-Razi was also hardly an orthodox Muslim and was criticized by al-Biruni because of it, Omar Khayyam's religious convictions were also questioned and there is a lot of dispute regarding whether or not how religious he was etc. It seems that many important figures of the Golden Age were not quite orthodox Muslims but held a number of heterodox views. Now there were those like al-Biruni or Ibn Sina or Ibn Khaldun that espoused a clearly Islamic worldview. Even then al-Ghazali criticized them in his Tahāfut al-Falāsifa.
Now obviously this is a question that cannot boil down to simple yes or no and given the shifting nature of religious interpretation might not have a clear answer but I am interested in what other views are.

Who are those Muslim apologists?

Besides, the very term "Islamic Golden Age" was coined, ironically, by Western authors apologetic of Western Imperialism and totally on board towards crude Orientalist ideas that defined a certain period in the Middle East (roughly from the 8th century to the 14th century) as the "Golden Age of Islam" simply by observing the relics in mosques around the Levant, Iraq, and Syria regions (Josías Porter 1868, p.49).

That term has since applied to define a specific period where the "Islamicate world". or the "Islamic civilization" (but not the religion per se), flourished in terms of its culture, art, scientific achievement, state-building, economy, and military achievements.
 
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Zakir Naik foremost of them all.
 
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This and Camel urine also against .....?

https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-doctors-warn-against-cow-dung-.....-cure-2021-05-11/
 
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For some reason animal urine is the super cure in religions. Some Hindu texts hail cow urine, the hadiths do the same with camel urine.
 

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