Islamic veneration of the black stone

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

I am curious about Muslim (and anybody else's) perspectives on the significance of the black stone in the Kaaba. The stone that Muslims bow down to when they pray to god. Is it true that Muslims believe that god's throne sits directly over the black stone?

What is known about the pre-Islamic religion that first venerated this stone? According to the Quran, it was a pagan holy site before Islam claimed it as a holy site, and was said to have 360 idols around it. Though Muslims will claim it was built by Abraham, about 40 years before the Temple in Jerusalem.

What is the true history of this site? I've heard that the practice of circling the stone was originally a pagan ritual. Does anyone have more information on this?

Thanks in advance.

M.S. Islam · Jun 24, 2013

Muslims do not bow down to the black stone while praying to God. Muslims do not bow down to the Kaaba either, its just a direction. FYI, Muslims originally prayed to the direction of al-Aqsa in Jerusalem.

Sorry to disappoint you, Rasta.

Brisieis · Jun 24, 2013

I also read similar to you Rasta. From what I know it was used for Arabian deities before Mohammed, though I can't be certain of this, I think there was a large number of deities associated with it...?

I also know the stone has something to do with Abraham and that it is possibly remnant of meteor.

I will be curious to what the Muslims here have to say about it.

Vintersorg · Jun 24, 2013

M.S. Islam said:
Muslims do not bow down to the black stone while praying to God. Muslims do not bow down to the Kaaba either, its just a direction. FYI, Muslims originally prayed to the direction of al-Aqsa in Jerusalem.

Sorry to disappoint you, Rasta.

What is the use and symbolism of the stone then?

Brisieis · Jun 24, 2013

M.S. Islam said:
Muslims do not bow down to the black stone while praying to God. Muslims do not bow down to the Kaaba either, its just a direction. FYI, Muslims originally prayed to the direction of al-Aqsa in Jerusalem.

Sorry to disappoint you, Rasta.

They don't bow down to the Kaaba, but don't Muslims pray in the direction of Mecca?

I understand there is a difference between bowing to a structure and in the same direction as one. Now I am curious, when you see Muslims praying around the Kaaba, do they encircle it or still face only one direction? Because if they encircle it, how is the Kaaba not significant in this?

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

M.S. Islam said:
Muslims do not bow down to the black stone while praying to God. Muslims do not bow down to the Kaaba either, its just a direction. FYI, Muslims originally prayed to the direction of al-Aqsa in Jerusalem.

Sorry to disappoint you, Rasta.

You can call it direction instead of prayer, I don't care about semantics. The direction of prayer is the black stone yes? When did it change from the temple mount?

M.S. Islam · Jun 24, 2013

Vintersorg said:
What is the use and symbolism of the stone then?

It is believed to be a meteor (from heaven) sent for Adam (pbuh) to point out the exact site where to build the Kaaba.

The stone has no use, nor there is any symbolism associated with it. Only that the Prophet (s.a.w) kissed it, therefore Muslims performing hajj kiss it, even though that does not constitute as part of hajj rituals.

M.S. Islam · Jun 24, 2013

Rasta said:
You can call it direction instead of prayer, I don't care about semantics. The direction of prayer is the black stone yes?

No. The direction of prayer is the Kaaba.

When did it change from the temple mount?

Sometime after the Prophet (s.a.w) emigrated to Medina; 12-13 years since the beginning of his prophethood.

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

Brisieis said:
I also read similar to you Rasta. From what I know it was used for Arabian deities before Mohammed, though I can't be certain of this, I think there was a large number of deities associated with it...?

I also know the stone has something to do with Abraham and that it is possibly remnant of meteor.

I will be curious to what the Muslims here have to say about it.

Yes, a meteor is likely, as I believe it was said that the stone fell from heaven (the sky naturally).

I think circling a fire seven times is a Hindu marriage custom. I wonder if the practice and/or pre-Islamic Arabian religion has ancient connections to Hinduism.

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

MS Islam said:
No. The direction of prayer is the Kaaba.

Ok. The direction of prayer is the Kaaba and not the black stone, the black stone just happens to be inside the Kaaba. Why was the Kaaba constructed there?

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

M.S. Islam said:
It is believed to be a meteor (from heaven) sent for Adam (pbuh) to point out the exact site where to build the Kaaba.

The stone has no use, nor there is any symbolism associated with it. Only that the Prophet (s.a.w) kissed it, therefore Muslims performing hajj kiss it, even though that does not constitute as part of hajj rituals.

Oh, the Kaaba was built by Adam and not Abraham then according to Muslims?

What is known about the pre-Islamic religious rituals concerning the stone?

M.S. Islam · Jun 24, 2013

Rasta said:
Ok. The direction of prayer is the Kaaba and not the black stone, the black stone just happens to be inside the Kaaba. Why was the Kaaba constructed there?

It's outside the Kaaba.

Why was the Kaaba constructed where it is? I wouldn't know.

M.S. Islam · Jun 24, 2013

Rasta said:
Oh, the Kaaba was built by Adam and not Abraham then according to Muslims?

Originally built by Adam (pbuh), rebuilt by Abraham (pbuh).

What is known about the pre-Islamic religious rituals concerning the stone?

I don't know if the stone had any significance in pre-Islamic times.

The pilgrimage - hajj, however was instituted since Abraham (pbuh).

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

M.S. Islam said:
It's outside the Kaaba.

Why was the Kaaba constructed where it is? I wouldn't know.

You mean on the outside, but integrated into the structure? Wasn't it a pagan holy site previously? Perhaps the significance pre-dates Islam?

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

MS Islam said:
I don't know if the stone had any significance in pre-Islamic times.

The pilgrimage - hajj, however was instituted since Abraham (pbuh).

Nothing is known of it's history then? I realize that Muslims believe that Muslims were around before Muslims were really around, but doesn't the Quran say anything about the pagan religions or traditions there?

M.S. Islam · Jun 24, 2013

Rasta said:
You mean on the outside, but integrated into the structure?

The black stone does not matter at all.

Wasn't it a pagan holy site previously? Perhaps the significance pre-dates Islam?

The Kaaba was the first manmade structure on earth. Even the hajj was started during Abraham (pbuh). So, obviously before coming of Islam the Kaaba was worshipped by pagans in the interim periods.

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

MS Islam said:
The black stone does not matter at all.

It's encased in the holiest shrine of Islam, and doesn't matter at all? My girlfriend told me that god's throne is directly over the black stone, and that's why the Kaaba was built there.

Is this incorrect?

The Kaaba was the first manmade structure on earth. Even the hajj was started during Abraham (pbuh). So, obviously before coming of Islam the Kaaba was worshipped by pagans in the interim periods.

Can you expand more on the "interim periods", what periods do you mean?

M.S. Islam · Jun 24, 2013

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:

'Umar came near the black stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

[Sahih Bukhari, Volume #2, Book #26, Hadith #667]

Rasta · Jun 24, 2013

M.S. Islam said:
[Sahih Bukhari, Volume #2, Book #26, Hadith #667]

So Muslims venerate the stone but have no reason to venerate the stone other than because they saw Mohammed do it?

M.S. Islam · Jun 24, 2013

Rasta said:
It's encased in the holiest shrine of Islam, and doesn't matter at all? My girlfriend told me that god's throne is directly over the black stone, and that's why the Kaaba was built there.

Is this incorrect?

I am afraid, that is grossly incorrect. Check the hadith I posted, there's numerous more to the same effect.

Can you expand more on the "interim periods", what periods do you mean?

I will get back to that later. Gotta go now.

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