Italian cuisine before tomato

Semolina pasta has been used Italy/Europe since medieval times:

The Food Timeline--history notes: muffins to yogurt

There are a lot of articles about Italian cuisine before tomatoes: https://qandablog.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/what-did-italians-eat-before-tomatoes-were-imported/

"As it turns out, they ate pretty much what the rest of Mediterranean eats. Olives, pasta (introduced to Europe before 1000AD), different types of polenta (not made with corn, that came from the New World also), beans, onions, anchovies & fish near the shore, and (rarely) pork & wild game inland."

I heard once one Italian high nobleman arrived late in the night to an inn and asked an owner of the inn to give some food to eat. As it was late, the owner had only remnants of food left after a busy day, he said he had nothing and a nobleman was enraged and threatened to kill the owner if he doesn't get something to eat in half an hour. The owner of the inn put some of the remnants of food in the dough, and baked it and served it to the table of the nobleman, trembling with fear. Surprisingly, a nobleman liked the dish, said he never tried anything tastier and thanked the owner of the inn.

How true is this story about pizza?

History Chick said:

Semolina pasta has been used Italy/Europe since medieval times:

The Food Timeline--history notes: muffins to yogurt

There are a lot of articles about Italian cuisine before tomatoes: https://qandablog.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/what-did-italians-eat-before-tomatoes-were-imported/

"As it turns out, they ate pretty much what the rest of Mediterranean eats. Olives, pasta (introduced to Europe before 1000AD), different types of polenta (not made with corn, that came from the New World also), beans, onions, anchovies & fish near the shore, and (rarely) pork & wild game inland."

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How do you make polenta without corn? Seriously, what do you use?

@AlpinLuke: since pasta seems to be around for a long time, did Italians do any gravies based on cream to add to pasta or ravioli or similar?

AlpinLuke said:

Your mention of "ravioli" makes me think that Romans [who didn't know later ravioli, of course] cooked something very similar: the "patinam apicianam sic facies" [or cake of Apicio]. In medieval times there was the "tortello" [today "tortellino", a little version] which was similar to later raviolo.

Regarding gravies and creams, we have to differentiate popular cuisine from aristocratic cuisine. In the first case, it was the broth to accompany that kind of pasta [rarely meat broth, more commonly vegetable broth].

In the second case, the sauces were well present on medieval tables. In Italy there was the "Carmelina" sauce which was astonishing [thinking to the historical period]. It was prepared using:

almonds,
raisin,
soft inside of bread,
apple vinegar [or "agresto", but I cannot translate it],
cinnamon,
cloves.

What about that? Sure it was tasty.

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This sounds good.

Torrtellini, ravioli, you must understand I'm not good at distinguishing them or many sorts of pasta, although most of it known and eaten here as well. We usually call the long round stuff spaghetti, the long flat stuff noodles and everything small macaroni. And by your standards we probably long overcook them ...

I am interested in sauces made from cream (made of milk), because in Slovenia it is quite usual to make broad noodles, fuži (Istrian pasta) or žlikrofi (very similar to tortellini) with cream sauce. Since it's all similar to Italian, I was wondering if you guys make such things too.

This is what žlikrofi look like


This are fuži


and broad noodles with cream sauce


Nowadays the cream sauce almost always contains pieces of chicken or turkey, onions, mushrooms and all that. In the past, like you said, people would more than gladly eat it even without meat.

In some parts of the south olive oil was used to flavor. Also eggs, cheese, lamb and pork were quite popular in the interior.

How far back do you want to go? Wikipedia has a good article on Italian cuisine during the Roman period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_cuisine#Foods_and_ingredients

A few surviving ancient Roman recipes, and a modern take on them:

NOVA - Official Website | Ancient Roman Recipes

More ancient Roman recipes from Apicius and modern takes on them:

http://www.tribunesandtriumphs.org/roman-life/ancient-roman-recipes.htm

A blog about recreating ancient Roman cuisine:

Pass the Garum

Scaeva said:

How far back do you want to go? Wikipedia has a good article on Italian cuisine during the Roman period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_cuisine#Foods_and_ingredients

A few surviving ancient Roman recipes, and a modern take on them:

NOVA - Official Website | Ancient Roman Recipes

More ancient Roman recipes from Appicus and modern takes on them:

Ancient Roman Recipes

A blog about recreating ancient Roman cuisine:

Pass the Garum

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Nice links Scaeva, Thanks.

Shtajerc said:

How do you make polenta without corn? Seriously, what do you use?

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I was surprised by that too but I guess some other type of grain.

Technically, the word "corn" was used in Britain to refer to other grains before maize was introduced. In fact, in the UK even today what Americans call "corn" (maize), the British more often call "sweet corn" - I presume because when maize was introduced to Europe, it was called sweet corn to distinguish it from other grains they called corn. Although they no longer call other grains "corn", the term "sweet corn" seems to have stuck in the UK.

I'm guessing the word polenta may have been used in the same way - until it became synonymous with cornmeal/sweet corn/maize, it may have been used to refer to other grains.

Wiki says about the etymology:

"Latin polenta covered any hulled and crushed grain, especially barley-meal, and is derived from Latin pollen 'fine flour', which shares a root with pulvis 'dust'.[4]"

And goes on to say:

"As it is known today, polenta derives from earlier forms of grain mush (known as puls or pulmentum in Latin or more commonly as gruel or porridge), commonly eaten since Roman times. Before the introduction of corn (maize) from America in the 16th century,[5] polenta was made with such starchy ingredients as farro, chestnut flour, millet, spelt, and chickpeas.[6]"

So the meaning of the word has changed over time.

Rodger said:

In some parts of the south olive oil was used to flavor. Also eggs, cheese, lamb and pork were quite popular in the interior.

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I love pasta with just some olive oil and parmesan cheese.

When did the Italics start extensively using that hardened fermented milk product?