Jews and Great Civilizations

Shaheen · Aug 8, 2011

Anna James said:
What's more, Mohammed himself said somewhere that both Jews and Christians have their book, and only the Arabs are being heathen. So, he used the the Jewish matrix to create Islam, I supposed by what he had heard about it, since if I remember right he was illiterate. He was a religious reformer, like Abraham, or Akhetaten in Egypt, like Martin Luther, or Joseph Smith; and all religious reformers use a pattern plus their own imagination, to make up another religion.

Essentially the Islamic belief is that Islam is no new religion. Christianity and Judaism were both true religions of God that were with time changed by its followers. Muslims believe that with Islam, God for the last time has sent down the true religion.

Anna James · Aug 8, 2011

bamxa91 said:
Essentially the Islamic belief is that Islam is no new religion. Christianity and Judaism were both true religions of God that were with time changed by its followers. Muslims believe that with Islam, God for the last time has sent down the true religion.

Yes, I can take that. But since I'm not religious, I see Mohammed as a ordinary man, a religious reformer, not as anything else. Islam is a logical continuation/development of Judaism, just like Christianity is. Judaism is a logical continuation of the Sumerian mythology, with some Egyptian elements, as used and elaborated by Abraham, he being another religious reformer. Religions develop just as cultures do - borrowing form one another, plus some of their own, and form a different, yet similar unity - there is no mystique to that.

Satuf · Aug 8, 2011

Anna James said:
The Jwws didn't claim the ancient Egyptian cultural heritage as their own, big difference.

Funny they actually do. There are Jews out there who do believe that the Great Pyramids of Giza belong to Israel claiming that ancient Egyptians used Hebrew slaves. I've met one of those Jews in America...

Not to mention how they have tons of Mesopotamian and Egyptian stories in their Torah and claim them as their own stories.

How are they NOT claiming ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian cultural heritage as their own now?

Shasta · Aug 8, 2011

Mohammed the Persian said:
I still don't see how Jews are seen as an ethnicity these days...

I'll try to explain this the way I explained it to my mom, because she had the same question.

An ethnic group is a group that shares similar identities, languages, and histories. The Arabs are an ethnic group because they share the lingua franca of Arabic and similar ancestry.

Latinos/Hispanics are an ethnic group because they share the common language of Spanish. (Brazilians and Surinamese are NOT Latino despite being in South America.) Of course, people that we would classify as Latino/Hispanic would take issue with this designation, but this happens frequently in the US. In the US, it is more of an identity of an out-group than anything else, imo...

The Jews are also an ethnic group. They share a common identity of the diaspora, which defines Jewish existence. Although a Jew may speak Ladino, Arabic, Yiddish, or Hebrew, they are still cognizant of a common historic experience in being expelled from Palestine/Judea when the Romans razed Jerusalem and common ancestry of Semites.

Although there are significant genetic differences between Jewish groups that have nothing to do with ethnicity. Some Ashkenazim carry a gene for Tay-Sachs Disease that Mizrahi and Sephardi just don't have. This probably has to do with their isolation within Europe and marrying within the same group for social reasons.

Ethnicity and Race: Overview

Hope that helps

sylla1 · Aug 8, 2011

Irrespectively of the exact working definition used for the term “Jew” on an individual basis (e.g. Herr Karl Marx was an atheist from a Jewish family, while Mr Sammy Davis Jr switched to the Jewish faith) it is clear that the largest historical cultural contribution of the Jewish people so far on both individual and collective levels has been for the benefit of our modern Great civilization (how would you like to call it? "Western?"), and for any reason it continues ostensibly growing exponentially each year; just check out the list of Nobel prizes and analogous scientific, artistic or philosophic hallmarks.

Anna James · Aug 8, 2011

Satuf said:
1. Funny they actually do. There are Jews out there who do believe that the Great Pyramids of Giza belong to Israel claiming that ancient Egyptians used Hebrew slaves. I've met one of those Jews in America...
2. Not to mention how they have tons of Mesopotamian and Egyptian stories in their Torah and claim them as their own stories.
3. How are they NOT claiming ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian cultural heritage as their own now?

1. Then I would disagree with them. But I had never seen such claims made by historians, Jewish or not. I posted the link to the article in which Jamil Ragep mentioned Maimonides in a context of Arabic science, not specifying he was a Jew. In all the noise Saliba makes abou the superioity of the Arabic medieval science there is not a single mention of the Jewish scholars who played a very siginificant part in it. And they are historians, not some ordinary Joes, people trust their historical judgment, and they shouldn't afford such things.

2. So? This is just an evidence of cultural borrowing. Culture borrow form each other all the time, but borrowing when it's rebuilt to fit your own identity is your own. Like - the Arabs built the Arabic science on the base of the Greek science, but the Arabic science is not Greek science, it's Arabic one, because they built on it.
3. Claiming cultural heritage would be to say that Imhotep was a Jew; or to mention him in a study of Jewish successes in architecture, not mentioning that he was an Egyptian.

jehosafats · Aug 8, 2011

abvgd said:
Actually, the Wikipedia entry does settle the issue quite nicely

It doesn't. Now stick to the topic.

Anna James · Aug 8, 2011

Shasta said:
I'll try to explain this the way I explained it to my mom, because she had the same question.

Are you saying that there are people who honestly cannot see the Jews as an ethnicity? I didn't even think that, I thought Mohammed was being sarcastic

.

abvgd · Aug 8, 2011

jehosafats said:
It doesn't. Now stick to the topic.

Yes it does... But I'm confident others can read and draw their own conclusions.

jehosafats said:
Now stick to the topic.

Yes, how about that?

jehosafats · Aug 8, 2011

abvgd said:
Yes it does... But I'm confident others can read and draw their own conclusions.

Yes, how about that?

What about it doesn't do you not understand? Consider the wiki-entry relies almost solely upon a single source which takes certain liberties with personal correspondence. Anybody can edit a wiki-entry. For all I know they're your words.

I posted several sources explaining why your theory is implausible. One of those sources the entry doesn't cite is Wind, Water, Work: Ancient and Medieval Milling Technology (2010), purportedly "the most comprehensive empirical study to date of the social and technical aspects of milling during the ancient and medieval periods." The author happens to disagree with you. Hydraulic Systems and Technologies of Islamic Spain (2000) by Glick and Kirchner wasn't cited either, and also happens to contradict your conclusions. We can go on and on, but I'd rather not derail the thread arguing over paper.

Anna James · Aug 9, 2011

abvgd said:
Yes it does... But I'm confident others can read and draw their own conclusions.

I'm actually planning to do that

, when I have time. Thanks for the info you provided.
I found this study http://libro.uca.edu/ics/ics7.htm which is quite balanced as a whole and have a concise statement on the paper-making.

larkin · Aug 9, 2011

The Jews that immigrated into Europe as caravan traders in the Early Middle ages made a positive contribution to the breaking the hold that the feudal system had on the vassal states of Europe. Because they were not serfs tied to the land and they were excluded from medieval society they were defato, "Freeman" They brought trade, goods and crafts skills to Europe and made a contribution to the city states that only an outsider could. Also, because they were excluded, they could do professions denied to natives. Banking and lending may seem like a dubious profession but it freed up gold for investment so it had a positive effect.

This kind of contribution is not exclusive to Jews. All over the world, groups like the Chinese and Indians came as outsiders, traders and help to shape and improve societies. This is not to say that there wasn't friction but overall it was positive, cross-pollination

1991sudarshan · Aug 9, 2011

Hey guys, this thread is about the contribution of the Jews to the great civilization and please do not talk about the ethnic origins,etc.

historyisfun! · Aug 10, 2011

Anna James said:
Btw, can you give a link to your Delaware thread? I'm deep into US history, both pre-Columbian and post-such, with the Colonial period as my favorite; so I would like to read your thread. I can promise you that I will appreciate it, even if it's not very popular one - some less popular threads have far less pointless arguments that the those that are controversial and bunch of people have agendas to prove.

Sure!

Here they are:

http://www.historum.com/american-history/28757-why-delaware-so-small.html

http://www.historum.com/general-history/22414-should-delaware-considered-greatest-state.html

http://www.historum.com/american-history/20487-what-do-you-all-think-about-delaware.html

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Jews and Great Civilizations

Shaheen

Anna James

Satuf

Shasta

sylla1

Anna James

jehosafats

Anna James

abvgd

jehosafats

Anna James

larkin

1991sudarshan

historyisfun!

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