"Lowland" targe shield, were there any?

Oregonian89 · Nov 21, 2019

Ive never seen pictures of any lowland shields or even read anything about them anywhere. Most sources call the targe the "Highland targe" even. Am I missing something here or did the lowland clans not use the targe for battle the same way their Highland counterparts did?

PADDYBOY · Nov 21, 2019

I'm not sure how the schiltron was introduced to Scotland but it seems to have been a lowland method. it consisted of a shield wall and a lot of long pointed spears.
The border reivers were mainly cavalry and didn't bother to much with shields

Abraham95 · Nov 21, 2019

PADDYBOY said:
I'm not sure how the schiltron was introduced to Scotland but it seems to have been a lowland method. it consisted of a shield wall and a lot of long pointed spears.
The border reivers were mainly cavalry and didn't bother to much with shields

The reivers had small bucklers, as I recall.

PADDYBOY · Nov 21, 2019

the Rievers had a bit of everything. They were a mish-mash of whatever they could beg steal or borrow. Their main weapon was their bog trotters (ponies).Everything else from longbows to crossbows, lances and swords were booty from battles won. Very few Rievers could pick and choose their weapons, such was their poverty. But you're right. Their captains would have been equipped with bucklers.

Oregonian89 · Nov 21, 2019

PADDYBOY said:
I'm not sure how the schiltron was introduced to Scotland but it seems to have been a lowland method. it consisted of a shield wall and a lot of long pointed spears.
The border reivers were mainly cavalry and didn't bother to much with shields

Any idea about what time they phased out the targe in the lowlands?

The History of Armour 1100-1700: Walker, Paul F.: 9781847974525: Amazon.com: Books

The History of Armour 1100-1700 [Walker, Paul F.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The History of Armour 1100-1700

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In "The History of Armour 1100-1700"
the author claims the targe came to Scotland sometime in the 15th century, I think. Its been awhile since I read it though.

Are the shields your referring to here the small ones that strap to the forearm? I know there were other types of shields early on. I am referring to the target style shield.

Also, I apologize for not being more clear but I was asking about the 17th-18th century specifically. I have heard that there were special orders of targes made for the government forces but they were crude shields meant for combat not status or fashion unlike the Highlanders targes. Locating this info has been problematic though.

PADDYBOY · Nov 21, 2019

I'm not sure when targe like shields were phased out, Oregonian. I know that Tacitus when writing about the battle o Mons Graupus, refers to the Picts using large two handed broad swords and a small targe like shield strapped to their arms. There are also standing stones with images of Picts in shiltron style formations. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful mate.

Oregonian89 · Nov 21, 2019

PADDYBOY said:
I'm not sure when targe like shields were phased out, Oregonian. I know that Tacitus when writing about the battle o Mons Graupus, refers to the Picts using large two handed broad swords and a small targe like shield strapped to their arms. There are also standing stones with images of Picts in shiltron style formations. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful mate.

Hey, its all good. Thank you for the information, you were plenty helpful and I still learned a thing or two.

I might go see what kind of books are out there on ancient Scottish weaopnry.

Matthew Amt · Nov 21, 2019

Scotland isn't my specialty, but I strongly suspect that Highland targes derived from targes and targets that were in use in England and elsewhere in the 16th century. Many parts of Europe used sword-and-shield men in various ways. Presumably Scotland just hung on to the fashion after it was outdated elsewhere, not an unknown thing in Scotland. So while there were probably "Lowland targes" in the 16th century, I doubt you'd see an equivalent in the 18th. I'd be a little leery of terms like "phased out", since that implies a deliberate action when we could simply be discussing shifts in fashion.

Oh, and tribal people at Mons Graupius were not Picts but Caledonians, and they did not have 2-handed swords. I only know of one medieval Pictish stone showing a battle scene, and one of the warriors is using a spear 2-handed, but it doesn't tell us much about formations, etc.

Matthew

Oregonian89 · Nov 21, 2019

Matthew Amt said:
Scotland isn't my specialty, but I strongly suspect that Highland targes derived from targes and targets that were in use in England and elsewhere in the 16th century. Many parts of Europe used sword-and-shield men in various ways. Presumably Scotland just hung on to the fashion after it was outdated elsewhere, not an unknown thing in Scotland. So while there were probably "Lowland targes" in the 16th century, I doubt you'd see an equivalent in the 18th. I'd be a little leery of terms like "phased out", since that implies a deliberate action when we could simply be discussing shifts in fashion.

Oh, and tribal people at Mons Graupius were not Picts but Caledonians, and they did not have 2-handed swords. I only know of one medieval Pictish stone showing a battle scene, and one of the warriors is using a spear 2-handed, but it doesn't tell us much about formations, etc.

Matthew

Well they shifted to using guns and bayonets mostly , not sure if "phased out" is appropriate or not in that context but I dont think it was a fashion trend as much as an evolution of arms. I mean it always comes down to an arms race especially for the armies with resources.

I suck with terminology though, perhaps you are right.

They still used swords but nowhere near as much as the Highlanders. Anyhow, the targe is descended from the Italian (or Spanish, I forget) Targa, so is the English target shield. Thanks for the info , especially regarding earlier history in Scotland. I havnt dipped into pre-16th century stuff too much.

AlpinLuke · Nov 21, 2019

I've been not a few times in Scotland. In the Highlands and in the noble Aberdeenshire [where there are the territories of the Queen]. But I was there for the Megalithic sites.

Anyway I had the impression that the Roman presence in the Lowlands has a bit distorted the perspective of those regions [Romans temporary settled even in Aberdeenshire ... and more North ...]. I wouldn't see a clear separation among Highlands and Lowlands. Actually also geographically it's not that easy to put a border [I ignore if you are familiar with Scotland].

Dan Howard · Nov 21, 2019

The targe is the large version. The smaller shield carried Scots is properly called "target", which literally means "little targe". Froissart describes one knight being carried off the field on a targe so they had to be fairly substantial shields.

Oregonian89 · Nov 21, 2019

AlpinLuke said:
I've been not a few times in Scotland. In the Highlands and in the noble Aberdeenshire [where there are the territories of the Queen]. But I was there for the Megalithic sites.

Anyway I had the impression that the Roman presence in the Lowlands has a bit distorted the perspective of those regions [Romans temporary settled even in Aberdeenshire ... and more North ...]. I wouldn't see a clear separation among Highlands and Lowlands. Actually also geographically it's not that easy to put a border [I ignore if you are familiar with Scotland].

Good point (s). I think the differences were pretty obvious in the 17th-18th century though , they also could have been exaggerated by those pushing for conflict.

Do you happen to know of any books that specifically cover the Roman influence in the lowlands? I am very interested in learning more on that.

PADDYBOY · Nov 21, 2019

Matthew Amt said:
Scotland isn't my specialty, but I strongly suspect that Highland targes derived from targes and targets that were in use in England and elsewhere in the 16th century. Many parts of Europe used sword-and-shield men in various ways. Presumably Scotland just hung on to the fashion after it was outdated elsewhere, not an unknown thing in Scotland. So while there were probably "Lowland targes" in the 16th century, I doubt you'd see an equivalent in the 18th. I'd be a little leery of terms like "phased out", since that implies a deliberate action when we could simply be discussing shifts in fashion.

Oh, and tribal people at Mons Graupius were not Picts but Caledonians, and they did not have 2-handed swords. I only know of one medieval Pictish stone showing a battle scene, and one of the warriors is using a spear 2-handed, but it doesn't tell us much about formations, etc.

Matthew

Picti and Caledonians are the same people. Caledonians is what they call themselves and the Romans initially referred to all Northern tribes as Caledonians. The Romans later called them the Picti possibly because they still painted themselves. Something the Romano Britons had ceased to do.

Oregonian89 · Nov 21, 2019

Dan Howard said:
The targe is the large version. The smaller shield carried Scots is properly called "target", which literally means "little targe". Froissart describes one knight being carried off the field on a targe so they had to be fairly substantial shields.

That is interesting, ive heard they were different but I always assumed it was just a translational thing. The English shield came from the targa though, correct? Which is similar in size to the scottish shield...the terminology seems all over the place, tbh. Lol

PADDYBOY · Nov 21, 2019

I,m guessing the Highland targe would have been outlawed after Culloden and the Reiver buckler would have been outlawed when James VI became King of England.

hborrgg · Nov 21, 2019

Oregonian89 said:
That is interesting, ive heard they were different but I always assumed it was just a translational thing. The English shield came from the targa though, correct? Which is similar in size to the scottish shield...the terminology seems all over the place, tbh. Lol

the problem is that a lot of people in england and scotland back then didn't actually speak french. They weren't super great at consistent spelling either.

At Pinkie cleugh in 1547 the scottish pikemen were described as carrying some type of buckler or target on their left which would have been primarily lowlanders. The anglo-scot boarders/boarder rievers during the 16th century seem to have often carried shields, however i think they became less common as they replaced their mail with cuirasses and replaced their spears with pistols/arquebuses.

John Derrickes illustrations show the boarders fighting in ireland with shields slung over their backs or, interestingly, slung over their chests in combat instead of worn on their arm.

The Image of Irelande, with a Discoverie of Woodkarne - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oregonian89 · Nov 21, 2019

The Shield: Its Use and Development

A resource for historic arms and armor collectors with photo galleries, reviews, reference materials, discussion forums, a bookstore and a comparison tool.

myarmoury.com

So I was way wrong. The Scottish targe supposedly came to Scotland around the 12th century.

Matthew Amt · Nov 21, 2019

Oregonian89 said:
The Shield: Its Use and Development

A resource for historic arms and armor collectors with photo galleries, reviews, reference materials, discussion forums, a bookstore and a comparison tool.

myarmoury.com

So I was way wrong. The Scottish targe supposedly came to Scotland around the 12th century.

Well, that article doesn't show much evidence. Sure, there were round shields in use in Scotland as far back as the Bronze Age, and various round shields show up here and there all through the middle ages. But I don't think any of them would look like what we would call a "Scottish targe" until the Renaissance.

Matthew

Oregonian89 · Nov 22, 2019

Matthew Amt said:
Well, that article doesn't show much evidence. Sure, there were round shields in use in Scotland as far back as the Bronze Age, and various round shields show up here and there all through the middle ages. But I don't think any of them would look like what we would call a "Scottish targe" until the Renaissance.

Matthew

Fair enough and good point. The article listed a guy whos name ive heard several times in historical discussions so I assumed it was legit.

Ive always heard the targe described as a light weight wooden shield with a center grip that straps to your arm. The shield is bigger than a buckler but smaller than a full sized medieval shield but it should be big enough to cover your forearm . It usually has metal studs (forget exactly what they are called) to help in deflecting blows.

Theres also a myth that targes were used to deflect musket balls but I am skeptical of this claim.

I ran across this thread here Effectiveness of shields against muskets?

Pretty informative read.

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"Lowland" targe shield, were there any?

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