Modern warfare with black powder weapons

Fabius Maximus · May 3, 2022

So I freely admit to starting this thread mostly because I think the smoke-filled battlefields of the early modern period looked really cool and atmospheric, but...

Let's say that, for whatever hand-wave-y reason, black powder isn't replaced by more modern alternatives, and remains the go-to explosive and propellant for military weapons. Let's also say that, as far as possible, the rest of technology develops much as it did in real life. How would this affect the development of warfare? How effective would weapons be, and what effect would this have on military tactics? What would modern battlefields look like (other than really smokey, obvs

).

Chlodio · May 3, 2022

Snipers would be unable to keep their positions concealed.

Commanders might want to pay more attention to the wind direction to help blow the smoke away, preferably into the enemy's eyes.

Artillery shells could deliver both blast/ fragmentation and smoke screens in the same shell. No need for separate HE and smoke rounds.

It might be easier to discipline soldiers to fire short bursts rather than long bursts on full auto since the latter would blind the shooter and give an obvious advantage to the enemy. When firing with smokeless powder if feels good to shoot off a lot of rounds. After the first time that a machine gunner blinds himself so that he can no longer see what the enemy is doing and perhaps he can no longer see his own buddies, he feels very alone and confused. The next time he will preserve his own visibility of the battlefield by firing fewer rounds.

If battlefields become smoke shrouded, soldiers might pay closer attention to sound. Tactics might drive the development of quieter weapons that can sneak up on an enemy on a smokey battlefield and silently deliver lethal force. Conversely, area weapons like grenades and shrapnel shells might gain greater importance since the soldiers will not be able to see their targets and can only approximate the enemy's location.

Radioshooter · May 6, 2022

Is it possible to have gas operated "black powder" machine guns and assault rifles due the fouling?

Fabius Maximus · May 7, 2022

Chlodio said:
Snipers would be unable to keep their positions concealed.

I remember reading an account from an observer in the Boer War, stating that soldiers were much more likely to go to ground than in previous conflicts, due to the morale effects of being shot at and not being able to see where the shooter was. So perhaps suppressive fire would be less effective, both because it would be harder to stop the enemy manoeuvring, and because you wouldn't be able to keep up as high a rate of fire due to visibility issues.

Chlodio said:
It might be easier to discipline soldiers to fire short bursts rather than long bursts on full auto since the latter would blind the shooter and give an obvious advantage to the enemy. When firing with smokeless powder if feels good to shoot off a lot of rounds. After the first time that a machine gunner blinds himself so that he can no longer see what the enemy is doing and perhaps he can no longer see his own buddies, he feels very alone and confused. The next time he will preserve his own visibility of the battlefield by firing fewer rounds.

According to this video, British soldiers in the 1870s fired in volleys at long and medium range partly so that NCOs could slow down the firing enough to maintain visibility, so volley fire might stick around longer in this universe.

Chlodio said:
Artillery shells could deliver both blast/ fragmentation and smoke screens in the same shell. No need for separate HE and smoke rounds.

True, though black powder would mean less effective shells. This would have interesting effects on siege warfare (favouring the defender, since it would be harder to destroy fortifications) and naval warfare (since ships would be less vulnerable to enemy guns).

Radioshooter said:
Is it possible to have gas operated "black powder" machine guns and assault rifles due the fouling?

Machine guns would probably be of the Gatling gun variety, with multiple barrels to reduce the effects of fouling. Assault rifles probably wouldn't be viable, since a multiple-barrelled weapon would be too bulky, and a single-barrelled too prone to fouling.

Larrey · May 7, 2022

Radioshooter said:
Is it possible to have gas operated "black powder" machine guns and assault rifles due the fouling?

Well, sort of maybe, with regular breaks in the firing to get down to some serious cleaning?

But generally I would think "No", since everything from rate of fire, weight of fire, range etc. would be considerable lower than the modern stuff we know. Fire would still kill, but not to the levels we experienced with modern warfare. The Crimean War, War of Italian Unification, German Unification, Franco-Prussian, ACW is the starting point, and if the smokeless powder never arrives, and the modern bolt-action rifle as we know it with the Lebel, or the 75 mm rapid fire field gun, we can maybe extrapolate from that.

Fabius Maximus · May 9, 2022

Larrey said:
But generally I would think "No", since everything from rate of fire, weight of fire, range etc. would be considerable lower than the modern stuff we know. Fire would still kill, but not to the levels we experienced with modern warfare. The Crimean War, War of Italian Unification, German Unification, Franco-Prussian, ACW is the starting point, and if the smokeless powder never arrives, and the modern bolt-action rifle as we know it with the Lebel, or the 75 mm rapid fire field gun, we can maybe extrapolate from that.

I think the ACW and earlier conflicts probably aren't very reliable guides, since the armies in those periods were mostly using muzzle-loading rifles with a much slower rate of fire than breechloaders. Instead we should take wars like the Franco-Prussian or the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-8 as our starting points, since those were fought after the adoption of breech-loaders.

Do you think tanks or armoured cars would be used in this universe? If so, would black powder weapons be capable of penetrating their armour, or would armies have to find some other way of countering them?

WeisseRose · May 9, 2022

You may have seen widespread use of volley guns like the mitrailleuse rather than rapid fire weapons. No point in firing fast if you blind yourself. Firing would also give away your position immediately so you would want to be able to fire and relocate quickly. Offensive warfare would have been easier in the pre-mechanized era, since machine guns and fast firing rifles would not have been very effective defensively. I do think artillery would have taken on an even more important role, given the limitations of small arms.

Air power would likely have become the decisive theater very quickly. Control of the air would allow an army to immediately spot enemy fire and either direct fire from the ground or attack from the air. So we would probably have seen massive investment into airpower and decisive outcomes from the use of airpower very early on.

Moving forward, I think you would have seen far more innovation and investment in alternative forms of projectile propulsion. Rockets, air guns, and rail guns, for example.

Karri · May 9, 2022

Artillery would still be the big killer.

Michele A · May 10, 2022

WeisseRose said:
Moving forward, I think you would have seen far more innovation and investment in alternative forms of projectile propulsion. Rockets, air guns, and rail guns, for example.

Rockets are good, but not smokeless. I agree as to air rifles, you'd see the Girandoni stick around for light infantry and snipers, and being developed further, as higher-precision machining makes its air reservoir more reliable.

Michele A · May 11, 2022

Fabius Maximus said:
Do you think tanks or armoured cars would be used in this universe? If so, would black powder weapons be capable of penetrating their armour, or would armies have to find some other way of countering them?

Maybe all the more so.

WeisseRose · May 11, 2022

Michele A said:
Rockets are good, but not smokeless. I agree as to air rifles, you'd see the Girandoni stick around for light infantry and snipers, and being developed further, as higher-precision machining makes its air reservoir more reliable.

I'm thinking more of later solid-fuel (not black-powder) rockets. Not smokeless but would have major advantages over conventional black powder artillery. MLRS systems would potentially have become the sole long range artillery of all armies by WW2

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Modern warfare with black powder weapons

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