Roger Godberd

Hello Ian

The Godberd lineage is quite complex but probably just enough info to make sense.


I strongly suspect given the name Geoffrey Godberd and others in this record issuing from Shepshed that this is the 1264 Nottingham garrison Roger Godberd's brother Galfridus-Geoffrey Godberd.

The 1208 Roger Godberd appears in several records, Pipe Roll records included relating to Whitwick and to Swannington. The Chancellor's Roll, Or, Duplicate of the Great Pipe Roll of the Third Year of King John here probably the same man, page 314, in the Chancellor's Roll of 1202. The Great Roll of the Pipe for the First-seventeenth Year of the Reign of King John, Michaelmas 119-1216 (pipe Roll 45-61) this one also.


Then there is this man, Robert Godebert. I suspect that he may be this man

Curia Regis Rolls

1219
(Derebi') Nomina militum qui traciabantur equos, Gilebertus de
Pudinton' Rogerus de Horne Johannes de la Garston' Paganus de
Wlksted'. Plegii qui ceperunt in manum ad habiendum coram domino rege
Willelmum filium Gaufridi de Tycheseie, scilicet Simon de Bosco
Aldwinus filius Godwini Fulco filius Ricardi Robertus Godeberd'
Wlfwinus Colewin' et Willelmus de Bosco'



I found two records of a Geoffrey Godberd, one from 1246 involving Garendon Abbey, this one and one from 1242 which for the hellers like I just cannot re-find at the moment?


Geoffrey Godberd here is making payment for an annuity so is suggests he may be fairly old at this date in 1246/47.


1264 Roger Godberd's brother is called Geoffrey Godberd so I suspect that this 1246 Geoffrey Godberd is at least the father of the 1264 Roger Godberd, it could be his grandfather, 1246 Geoffrey Godberd perhaps the son of Robert Godberd of c1219 who was likely the son of the Roger Godberd of 1202 and 1208.

This one is interesting, whether this one is related to the Swannington Roger and he had some interest in lands in Westerham in Kent?

Probably not as there is a late Roger Godberd here in 1367 connected to the Shropshire family of Godberds who you can pick up in records.

The Shrewsbury/Salop Godberds can be seen clearly in records on the NA site, along here with the 1273 Roger Godberd being kept in prison at Chester record.

R Lynley said:

Feoffment 1) Roger Godeberd 2) James de Cormond. Meadow (position described) in Westerham, Kent. Consideration: ½d pa, and ½ mark down | The National Archives

The official archive of the UK government. Our vision is to lead and transform information management, guarantee the survival of today's information for tomorrow and bring history to life for everyone.

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk

This one is interesting, whether this one is related to the Swannington Roger and he had some interest in lands in Westerham in Kent?

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I think probably best to assume that this is a Roger Godberd independent from the Leicestershire Godberds, even Whitwick is in Leicestershire so the Godberds seem to have had lands and interests in Swannington, Shepshed and Whitwick, all around Charnwood Forest.

R Lynley said:

First (-120th) report of the deputy keeper of the public records

www.google.co.uk

This is another Godberd record that I came across in my notes and have found on Google Books now, Roger son of Roger Godberd arraigning against Margaret de Ferrers, countess of Derby over lands at Shepshed.

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This one is abit of a mystery?

TNA JUST I/1222, m. 15 (1275). Transcribed and translated by Lesley Boatwright.

Delivery of the Gaol of Hereford, made by command of the Lord King, of Roger Godberd, before W. de Helynn (with Roger de Burghill associated with him) on St Stephen's Day, in the fourth year of the reign of King [Edward I]

Hereford. The same Roger, accused as a public criminal of many burglaries, homicides, arsons, and robberies committed by him in the counties of Leics, Notts, and Wilts, and especially accused that he, together with other evildoers, wickedly robbed the Abbey of Stanley in the said county of Wiltshire of a great sum of money, horses, and other things found there, and also of the death of a certain monk killed there about the feast of St Michael in the 54th year of the reign of the lord king Henry, father of the present lord king [29 Sept 1270] , comes and denies all burglaries, homicides, arsons, robberies and all larceny etc., except at the time of the disturbance recently happening in the kingdom between the lord king Henry and Simon, former earl of Leicester, and his accomplices. And whereof he says that the same lord king Henry received him into his peace and pardoned him for whatever he had done against his peace etc. up till the ninth day of December in the 51st year of his reign [1266], on condition that from then on he would conduct himself faithfully towards the king and his heirs, etc., and he puts forward letters of patent of the same king Henry which bear witness to the same. And he says that he has always thereafter conducted himself well and faithfully towards the said king and his heirs and everybody else, and that he is not guilty of any of the foregoing, and for godd and ill he puts himself on the country of the aforesaid counties. And so the sheriffs of the aforesaid counties were instucted to cause, each from his own county, 12 men to come beforeJ. de Cobbeham, (justice appointed to deliver Newgate Gaol) at London ( marginated: London) three weeks after Easter to decide the matter. [There now follow, in the shortened form, the standard formulae-12 jurors by whom the matter will be considered, who are not related to the parties, because the defendant has asked for a jury trial.] And the sheriff of Hereford was instructed to cause the said Roger to come there on the said date.


Godberd was delivered from Hereford gaol on St Stephens Day 4 Edward 1, 26th December 1275. The trial went to Newgate three weeks after Easter 1276, Easter Sunday was April 12th 1276, three weeks after is May 2nd 1276. I wonder what happened then, if Godberd was retained in prison for a period or released? He could still have been in prison in 6 Edward 1, 1277/78. What would have been the procedure if he had, would the lands have passed to his son Roger Godberd, hence possibly why we get Roger son of Roger Godberd in this 6 Edward 1 record?

R Lynley said:

Hello Ian

1287 Roger Godberd, Reginald de Grey and others are accused of poaching venison in Sherwood Forest in 1264 (extract from the Sherwood Forest Book, ed. H. E. Boulton, Thoroton Society xxiii (1964) p. 129, translated by Tina Hampson.

Item, Warin de Bassingburne who has died, Reginald de Grey and their men took one stag with their greyhounds in the field of Bullewell and one other stag is Beskwode on Monday next before the feast of St. Lawrence in the same year, and took the venison as far as Bassingburne. Item, the aforesaid Reginald and his men took one stag and one deer in the wood of Bullewell on Saturday next after the feast of ST. Bartholomew in the aforesaid year and brought the venison to the aforesaid castle [Nottingham], and two deer in the wood of Novo Loco on the eve of St Giles in the aforesaid year and brought the venison to the aforesaid castle. Having been asked who were in the company of the aforesaid Reginald and Warin, They say that William le Wasteneys, who has died, Stephen his brother, Robert le Lou, knight, Ralph le Boteller, knight, William de Mungumry, father, William de Maysam, Richard de Gaham, parson of Schirlond, Wyotus de Sandiacre, Roger Gootbert, Geoffrey, his brother [and fourteen others]. Which aforesaid Richard and Stephen and the others have not come and not previously, etc. but it is witnessed that the same Stephen remains in the county of Lincoln. Therefore it is presented to the sheriff, etc. as above. And Robert le Lou has lands in the county of Northamptonshire. Therefore it is presented to the sheriff, etc. And Roger Gootberd and Geoffrey his brother have lands in the county of Leicestershire. Therefore it is presented to the sheriff, etc.



I think that Roger Godberd the outlaw, the one at least in the garrison of Nottingham castle in 1264 was still alive in 1287 when the presentment, item was dealt with at the Forest Eyre. Warin de Bassingbourne and William le Wasteneys are stated has having died but Roger Godberd and his brother are not stated to have done so.

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Hello Ian, not convinced by that one myself, Godberd was important enough I think to have been stated that he was dead in 1287 if he had been, this record even says 'And Roger Gootberd and Geoffrey his brother have lands in the county of Leicestershire. Therefore it is presented to the sheriff, etc', definitely giving the very strong impression that Roger and Geoffrey are both still alive. Interestingly, they have lands in Leicestershire, Godberd must have regained his lands at some point. I wonder if Roger jnr did have control of at least some of the lands when his father was in prison and he may still have been in 1277/78.

R Lynley said:

First (-120th) report of the deputy keeper of the public records

www.google.co.uk

This is another Godberd record that I came across in my notes and have found on Google Books now, Roger son of Roger Godberd arraigning against Margaret de Ferrers, countess of Derby over lands at Shepshed.

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I was leaving this until last in case there was another answer but I have seen more than enough records to have seen this, Simon le Conestable for example referred to as Simon son of William le Conestable when his father was still alive.


This is one I have just pulled up, deed dated 1239 and Simon's father was dead by 1218 but still styling himself or being styled like this.

I think that the logical answer to this is that Roger son of Roger Godberd in 1277/78 was Roger Godberd outlaw but being referred to or styling himself in this way, his father was also called Roger and he was styling himself or being styled Roger son of Roger Godberd. It likely points to another Roger Godberd, the Roger from the 1258 Diva filia Rogeri Godberd being outlaw Roger's father.

1250 Roger Godberd complains, unavailingly, that his mother and step-father have wasted his lands. G. F. Farnham, Leiscestershire Medieval Village Notes, 6 vols. (Leicester 1928-33), iv, p. 190.

Curia Regis Roll 141. Trinity, 34 Henry III, 1250, m. 13, Leyc. Anketil de Swaninton and Margaret, his wife, were attached to answer Roger Godebert in a plea of having made waste of 60 oaks, damage 100s. Anketil and Margaret come and deny waste and put themselves on the country. Roger did likewise. The inquisition say that they made no waste; therefore Anketil and Margaret are quit. Roger is not amerced because he is underage.

1258 Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henerica tertio rege, II, 1247-1272, 42 Henry III.

Leicestershire. Diva daughter of Roger de Godeberd' gives half a mark for an assize of novel disseisin to be taken before Gilbert de Preston. And the sheriff of Leicester[shire] is instructed to take…) (Lesley Boatwright Translation)

These two entries seem quite contradictory, Roger Godberd in 1250 under age and having an adult daughter in 1258 but I suspect that the 1250 Roger Godberd may be the young outlaw Roger Godberd, not 21 and the 1258 entry is his sister Diva being referred to and his deceased father Roger Godberd. William de Ferrers 5th Earl of Derby was earl for only 7 years, 1247 to 1254 so it may have been similar with Roger Godberd's father, a short tenure as lord of the lands in Swannington if he even outlived his father, dead pre 1250 and his mother remarried by 1250.

IJ Ross said:

Possibly - although in the case of Simon de Montfort there were very good reasons why he would be stressing his ancestry at this point, as he was making a claim to the honour of Leicester that derived from his deceased father.

But 'Roger son of Roger' could be our man, even if accurately teasing apart the generations might be more than the current evidence allows. The only real question for our purposes is when the outlaw Roger died, and whether he survived his jail term and trial in 1276-77. At present it seems likely he did, but at least possible that he did not!

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Hello Ian, no, maybe not the best example, I do have a good one in my notes somewhere with Simon son of William le Conestable in the Coram Rege rolls entries in 1265 to 1266 and his father William being dead by 1262 from records. Seen others as well, would have to dig deep to fish them out again.

That 1287 Forest Eyre, the way it is termed it looks like Roger and Geoffrey Godberd were still alive has said.

If the 1250 Roger is Roger Godberd and underage then he may have been born 1230 to 1235, that would make him 30 to 35 in 1265, 35 to 40 in 1270 and 55 to 60 n 1290 which looks just about right for his life, dying around the age of 60 and being 35 to 40 when he was leading the outlaw band in Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Leicestershire in 1270-71.

TNA JUST I/1222, m. 15 (1275). Transcribed and translated by Lesley Boatwright.

Delivery of the Gaol of Hereford, made by command of the Lord King, of Roger Godberd, before W. de Helynn (with Roger de Burghill associated with him) on St Stephen's Day, in the fourth year of the reign of King [Edward I]

Hereford. The same Roger, accused as a public criminal of many burglaries, homicides, arsons, and robberies committed by him in the counties of Leics, Notts, and Wilts, and especially accused that he, together with other evildoers, wickedly robbed the Abbey of Stanley in the said county of Wiltshire of a great sum of money, horses, and other things found there, and also of the death of a certain monk killed there about the feast of St Michael in the 54th year of the reign of the lord king Henry, father of the present lord king [29 Sept 1270] , comes and denies all burglaries, homicides, arsons, robberies and all larceny etc., except at the time of the disturbance recently happening in the kingdom between the lord king Henry and Simon, former earl of Leicester, and his accomplices. And whereof he says that the same lord king Henry received him into his peace and pardoned him for whatever he had done against his peace etc. up till the ninth day of December in the 51st year of his reign [1266], on condition that from then on he would conduct himself faithfully towards the king and his heirs, etc., and he puts forward letters of patent of the same king Henry which bear witness to the same. And he says that he has always thereafter conducted himself well and faithfully towards the said king and his heirs and everybody else, and that he is not guilty of any of the foregoing, and for godd and ill he puts himself on the country of the aforesaid counties. And so the sheriffs of the aforesaid counties were instucted to cause, each from his own county, 12 men to come beforeJ. de Cobbeham, (justice appointed to deliver Newgate Gaol) at London ( marginated: London) three weeks after Easter to decide the matter. [There now follow, in the shortened form, the standard formulae-12 jurors by whom the matter will be considered, who are not related to the parties, because the defendant has asked for a jury trial.] And the sheriff of Hereford was instructed to cause the said Roger to come there on the said date.


The Annales de Dunstaplia mention some of the robbers at the Stanley Abbey robbery in Michaelmas 1270 but Godberd isn't one of those mentioned? I suspect that her may have either not been present at that robbery or if he was he wangled his way out of it, probably with the backing of some big hitters like Gilbert de Clare who was one of the mainpernors of Richard Foliot when he was accused of sheltering Godberd and Devyas.

Hello Ian, hope that you are well, I don't know if you still patrol these threads but I wondered if I could ask you a question?

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081048&view=1up&seq=703 p557

Fourth entry down, Membrane 27

On your work on Godberd I wondered if you had come across any more obscure records relating to Henry de Hastings? I am trying to determine when he was released from prison, the exact or near date? He was still in prison on the 18th February 1266.


Robert of Gloucester says that he was with Robert de Ferrers at Chesterfield on May 15th 1266, it is likely that he mustered with Ferrers at Duffeld Frith prior to this described by Thomas Wykes.

Hello Ian, thanks for your reply. Books and other sources say that it was Henry de Hastings leading the garrison of Kenilworth who was responsible for the hand being cut off of Henry III's messenger to them at Kenilworth.


The mutilation of the king's messenger had already happened and Henry III was issuing a royal letter in response on March 15th 1266? If Henry de Hastings had been the garrison leader responsible then he must have been released from prison and already joined Kenilworth garrison sometime prior to March 15th 1266? The royal letter makes no mention of the garrison leader.

IJ Ross said:

Hi Robert - good to revisit this old thread!

Yes, Henry de Hastings seems to have spent a while in prison after his capture at Evesham; he was initially taken by Lord Edward to Beeston Castle together with Humphrey de Bohun and Guy de Hastings (Chester Annals of St Werburgh's), then some time later was apparently transferred to the keeping of Thomas de Clare - perhaps as a sort of gift from Edward to de Clare. The Calendar of Inqisitions Misc entry 613, dated some time after 21 Sept 1265, says that "Sir Henry de Hastinges was with Sir Simon de Monteforti and was taken at Evesham, and is now in the prison of Sir Thomas de Clare..."

He was, as you point out, still a prisoner in February of 1266, but must have escaped or been released very soon afterwards and travelled to join Robert de Ferrers, probably at Duffield. I haven't found any other references to de Hastings between the Feb 18 one and his appearance with de Ferrers. As with so many of these figures, it's a shame we don't more about his movements during this period, or of his death so soon after the close of hostilities.

Incidentally, you (and other sreading this thread) might eb interested in my blod post about Godberd, if you have not seen it already: ROGER GODBERD

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Excellent blog Ian about Godberd, very.