Serbia

Perix · Feb 14, 2010

falcon said:
Surprisingly enough nothing bad is being heard about Serbians in Greece.

They didn't live the culture distructive stalinism, as we, all the other communists countries, lived, less or more.

Efendi · Feb 14, 2010

falcon said:
Surprisingly enough nothing bad is being heard about Serbians in Greece.

It means they are more adaptive there.

Perix · Feb 14, 2010

falcon said:
Yes, they speak Serbian and I don't think their culture is much different.

Anyway, I don't know much about their past, but it was their choice to split from Serbia, probably for economichal reasons.

falcon · Feb 14, 2010

Perix said:
Anyway, I don't know much about their past, but it was their choice to split from Serbia, probably for economichal reasons.

The big powers also had a hand in this affair for their motives.
It was stupid, but the black propaganda eventually prevailed, and the people were manipulated.

Perix · Feb 14, 2010

falcon said:
The big powers also had a hand in this affair for their motives.
It was stupid, but the black propaganda eventually prevailed, and the people were manipulated.

But I know it was a kingdom, Montenegro, in the past-why this kingdom was different from Serbia?

falcon · Feb 14, 2010

To be fair though towards Albanians, it should be said that the great majority of them do not engage in illegal activities. A lot of them are good family people, their children have been born in Greece and a lot of them are honored students and they speak Greek better than Greeks. I have heard Greek parents talking to their children and refering to the Albanian students as an example to be imitated by them. I had Albanians working in my houses in Greece and they did excellent hard work.

But as always is the case, there are rotten apples everywhere.

I also saw a couple of Bulgarians working in Greece, one of them a waiter in a good restaurant by the Aegean sea, the other was working in a car rental place; they both spoke very good Greek, but I could tell they were foreigners from their accent, and I asked them where they were from? they both seemed very nice people.

Efendi · Feb 14, 2010

falcon said:
To be fair though towards Albanians, it should be said that the great majority of them do not engage in illegal activities. A lot of them are good family people, their children have been born in Greece and a lot of them are honored students and they speak Greek better than Greeks. I have heard Greek parents talking to their children and refering to the Albanian students as an example to be imitated by them. I had Albanians working in my houses in Greece and they did excellent hard work.

But as always is the case, there are rotten apples everywhere.

I also saw a couple of Bulgarians working in Greece, one of them a waiter in a good restaurant by the Aegean sea, the other was working in a car rental place; they both spoke very good Greek, but I could tell they were foreigners from their accent, and I asked them where they were from? they both seem very nice people.

I heard from a greek friend that once a time there have been some accident in Albania, resulting escape of many Albanian prisoner to Greece. He said that was why there were so much amount of problematic Albanians in Greece.

Albanians image is generally not good in Greece as far as I know.

Btw, How are things Falcon, I hope everything fine.
It has been long, you probably ended your holiday in Greece.

falcon · Feb 14, 2010

Efendi said:
I heard from a greek friend that once a time there have been some accident in Albania, resulting escape of many Albanian prisoner to Greece. He said that was why there were so much amount of problematic Albanians in Greece.

Albanians image is generally not good in Greece as far as I know.

Btw, How are things Falcon, I hope everything fine.
It has been long, you probably ended your holiday in Greece.

Yes it's true what you are saying, when the Albanians started coming to Greece, the crime rate jumped 100%. Before that people used to sleep with their windows open. They were involved in stealing, roberies, prostitution, extortion, protection rackets (in mafia style), murders, and in general any criminal activity you can think of.

Yes I did come back about a month ago, everything is just fine, back to work again.

avon · Feb 14, 2010

falcon said:
Yes it's true what you are saying, when the Albanians started coming to Greece, the crime rate jumped 100%.

Do you have sources for that?

falcon · Feb 14, 2010

avon said:
Do you have sources for that?

I know what all the newspapers were writting, and what was the common knowledge of the people about this subject.
I don't have the statistics from the police reports about their criminality, but I suppose one could find them if he was really interested about it and wanted to spend the time for it. You would find out that this was the case without any doubt.
I personally don't have the time to do it, you can take my word for it or not. I only state things that are well known to the great majority of the people, without being prejudicial about it or in any way anti-Albanian.
I can also tell you what an Albanian official from their embassy told me when I asked him "What happen to all those criminals?", his answer was "Most of them are in jail now". At least he was honest admitting the fact and that should tell you something.

avon · Feb 14, 2010

falcon said:
I know what all the newspapers were writting, and what was the common knowledge of the people about this subject.
I don't have the statistics from the police reports about their criminality, but I suppose one could find them if he was really interested about it and wanted to spend the time for it. You would find out that this was the case without any doubt.

Well, perhaps. But you stated a statistic: a 100% increase in crime. So, it might have been a 100% jump ... but it could have been more or less?

falcon said:
I personally don't have the time to do it, you can take my word for it or not. I only state things that are well known to the great majority of the people, without being prejudicial about it or in any way anti-Albanian.
I can also tell you what an Albanian official from their embassy told me when I asked him "What happen to all those criminals?", his answer was "Most of them are in jail now". At least he was honest admitting the fact and that should tell you something.

With respect, falcon, taking your word, or not, doesn't really reinforce your argument. Nor does appealing to 'common knowledge'.

Efendi · Feb 14, 2010

avon said:
Well, perhaps. But you stated a statistic: a 100% increase in crime. So, it might have been a 100% jump ... but it could have been more or less?

With respect, falcon, taking your word, or not, doesn't really reinforce your argument. Nor does appealing to 'common knowledge'.

Avon

I haven't used something like that in english in the forum, but I some time use similar exagreations like "100% increase" too.

I think It is more empowering the meaning rather than showing statistic.

Falcon correct me if I am wrong.

falcon · Feb 14, 2010

avon said:
Well, perhaps. But you stated a statistic: a 100% increase in crime. So, it might have been a 100% jump ... but it could have been more or less?.

I said 100% to give you an understanding of how crime skyrocketed during the initial period when the Albanians were coming into the country.
It could have been even more like 200% or 300% for that matter.

avon said:
With respect, falcon, taking your word, or not, doesn't really reinforce your argument. Nor does appealing to 'common knowledge'.

As I said, I don't have the actual statistics, neither I'm going to start looking for them.
You really don't have to believe it, but I have no reason to lie for any imagined reason.
However the common knowledge was there, and people knew about it, which was something that other Albanians were also admitting to it and were feeling eshamed about it.
I'm only actually stating facts here, that were of course common knowledge.

falcon · Feb 14, 2010

Efendi said:
Avon

I haven't used something like that in english in the forum, but I some time use similar exagreations like "100% increase" too.

I think It is more empowering the meaning rather than showing statistic.

Falcon correct me if I am wrong.

No, you are absolutely RIGHT Efendi!

Irnik · Feb 14, 2010

Perix said:
Yes, I've observed that paragraphe disappeared. "The true is serbians megalomanic ambitions allways been above their capacities", or something like this, remember?

No, it didn't disappear. Be my guest and tell be where exactly I am wrong:

Irnik said:
The gap between Serbian megali aspirations and Serbian small abilities has always been so huge (from the middle ages to date). They believed in themselves too much, forgetting that Yugoslavia would never been so big, had it not been the will of the great powers. The Serbs lost both world wars, and yet they gained so much control in the area. The economic locomotive of Yugoslavia was not Serbia, but Sloveniia, Croatia and Voivodina. It's high time that the Serbs stop fighting for what is not theirs but to focus on preserving and developing what belongs to them.

Perix said:
No, this is untrue, this is just gratuite. This is not the place to amplify the discution, but you know I have resons enough to not like your peculiar oppinions, based in general on bulgarian nationalist feelings toward your neighbours.

I dont' know the meaning of this word - gratuite.

At least you admit you are personally biased when opposing me, not that you disagree with what I write. You didn't answer the question below:

Irnik said:
If you think what I said about Serbaian history is wrong, counteract with your oppinion about Serbian history, not with your oppinion about me. Do you see the difference?

falcon said:
No I don't mean that at all, in fact there hardly any Turks entering the country and trying to stay in Greece.
Those people are mainly from Afganistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Bangladesh and other Arab countries who have entered through Turkey.
Of course you have also from African countries, and certainly a lot from Albania and other Balkan countries as well as from countries of the former Soviet Union, Russia, Ukraine, Moldavia, Georgia etc., but those entered through other routs or means.
A lot of them are trying to enter other Western European countries but that's very hard too, so they are stuck in Greece.

Still, it is a huge number, having in mind the total populaiton of Greece is about 10 milion.

falcon said:
Surprisingly enough nothing bad is being heard about Serbians in Greece.

I am not surprised. Greeks and Serbs have not fought against each other for 700 years. In the latest conflicts in 20th century, their had common interests against Bulgaria. Now, they don't even have a common frontier for at least minor border disputes.

Perix said:
Sturm, I have nothing against bulgarians-your acusations are forced. Especially Irnik irritated my, several times, with more or less evident suggestions against romanians and romania. The fact that I observed the same bad feelings on him, against serbians and fyromians, confirmed me, I was right judging him. I try to ignore your bad suggestions, either, but you seems to be, somehow, badly influenced by this Irnik - not once you've said you agree with him, and you admire him. On the other hand, you seems you can be, sometime, different from Irnik, but looks like you have not enough power to loose his nationalistic influence

Sturm is a big guy. Don't offend him like that.

avon · Feb 14, 2010

falcon said:
I said 100% to give you an understanding of how crime skyrocketed during the initial period when the Albanians were coming into the country.
It could have been even more like 200% or 300% for that matter.

As I said, I don't have the actual statistics, neither I'm going to start looking for them.
You really don't have to believe it, but I have no reason to lie for any imagined reason.
However the common knowledge was there, and people knew about it, which was something that other Albanians were also admitting to it and were feeling eshamed about it.
I'm only actually stating facts here, that were of course common knowledge.

The issue of the rise in crime rates is not altogether important. What is important, and has been throughout the whole of this thread, is the number of unsubstantiated 'facts' and claims that have been thrown about from all directions. If you wish to show that crime rates rose, the proper custom would be to provide the figures that demonstrate this; if you wish to show that a significant number of people moved from one area to another, likewise, the proper custom would be to provide the figures that demonstrate this; if Milošević said something, provide the source; if such-and-such figure was a fascist, provide something of substance to demonstrate that conclusion; if you appeal to common knowledge, that still requires substantiation. In short, all assertions ought to be demonstrable. Where a thread deals with a potentially controversial topic, such a custom of practice is all the more important. A dearth of substance leads to vehement argument the likes of which we have seen in almost every other thread dealing with Balkan issues.

To show what I mean, I would point out this:

Researchers agree that the percentage of crime for which the Albanians are responsible, compared to the rest of the immigrant population in Greece, was only 4.5%, and was thus directly proportional to their numbers and, therefore, not exceptionally high. It is true that the desperate economic situation, unemployment and the life in ghettos inside the Greek cities, are factors that breed crime and segregation among the immigrant population.

There are two myths in relation to this question that need to be dispelled. Firstly, that Albanians are not only culprits, but also victims of criminal activity, because their presence itself has created numerous opportunities for illegal activities (such as prostitution and "protection," trafficking of illegal immigrants, illegal trade or falsification of visas, passports). Secondly, these activities have been conducted by both Albanians and Greeks, and often by the Greek authorities themselves. Nevertheless, immigrants are usually the ones identified as culpable by the police.

Additionally, the hysteria directed against Albanian immigrants has been created and continually revived by the Greek media. Quite often Greek television channels and newspapers have assumed that burglars and thieves were Albanians, without actually having any proof, since the individuals concerned had not been arrested. There have even been cases when Greek citizens have injured or killed Albanians on the spot for stealing and have escaped the legal consequences, feeling justified in taking the law into their own hands and encouraging others to imitate them. Moreover, Albanians have reportedly been beaten up because of their nationality and even Greeks have been attacked for looking like Albanians. Nevertheless, no major racist activist organisations exist in Greece, such as those, which exist in Germany and France. Finally, criminal stereotypes against the Albanians have been used by certain Greek politicians for party or personal political interests, and the Greek police force has often supported the theory that the rise in crime is due to illegal migration, to cover its lack of preventive policy.

Source: http://www.ce-review.org/99/21/vidali21.html

I would point out also all emphasis in the above quote has been added by me.

Clearly then, stating something as common knowledge has it’s flaws. Likewise, stating something without being interested enough to look up, is equally misleading. If we all make an attempt to be more precise in our arguments, maybe it will be possible to have a debate that does not descend into acrimony.

falcon · Feb 14, 2010

Irnik said:
Still, it is a huge number, having in mind the total populaiton of Greece is about 10 milion.

The total population of Greece inside Greece is about 11 million, but there are some millions outside also (US, Canada, Australia, Western Europe etc.).
But you are right the 2 million extra foreigners inside the country is very big number around 20%; considering that the US which is primarily a country accepting continously immigrants has only 13% foreign born population.
That's why there is a big controversy inside Greece about the proposed legislation that this government is trying to enact.
On the one hand the government does not trust the people to put it for a vote in a referendum because they know they'll lose it.
On the other hand the government wants to give political rights to something around 1/2 million because with the upcoming city elections in November and due to economic difficulties the Greek people will turn against them, and therefore they want to make up for the loss with the foreign element who are bound to vote for them since they get political recognition.

Irnik said:
I am not surprised. Greeks and Serbs have not fought against each other for 700 years. In the latest conflicts in 20th century, their had common interests against Bulgaria. Now, they don't even have a common frontier for at least minor border disputes.

No they didn't have really any common interests against Bulgaria, rather it was the misstrust they both felt about the intentions of Bulgaria that brought them together in the 2nd Balkan war. In fact they had some differences with regards to Monasterion (Bitola) but there were other more pressing issues and they didn't pursue it further.

Irnik · Feb 14, 2010

See here the SECRET protocol signed in 1913 between Greece and Serbia, aimed to unite both countries against Bulgaria, in case the later tries to attack them. Indeed, the protocol is formulated as deffensive, but it was signed days after both Greece and Serbia refused to retract their armies from areas inhabited mostly by Bulgarian population, i.e. Western Macedonia and Western Thrace.

As I have said before, I don't justify the the start of the Second Balkan war, but it is clear, Greece and Serbia provoked it and realizing they were not right, prepared to fight jointly.

falcon · Feb 14, 2010

Avon

Why do you think that Ms. Vitali who wrote this article is to be considered an expert on the subject? We don't know her own prejydicial judgement. Especially the figure 4.5% that she is quoting cannot be right. Do you know in what period she is refering to? do you know if she is using propaganda and a small time frame period in order to make her arguement more believable? I have seen people using methods of this sort in order to pass their agenda and make a point for the purpose of disinformation.
If the crime for which the Albanians were responsible was only 4.5% as she says..... who was responsible for the other95.5%?
I can assure you it wasn't the Africans, they were very noticeable for being very peacefull people; it wasn't either the Moslems from the Middle East , somehow their culture teaches them to be away from criminality. Now there were also some from the Eastern European countries who also engaged in criminal activities, but they were not heard nearly as much as the Albanians did.

Articles > Ioannis Michaletos > Greece battles Balkan organized crime
<H2 class=article-title>Greece battles Balkan organized crime </H2>Ioannis Michaletos21 Feb 2008
NOTE: The data presented are from recent Greek Police Press Announcements and relevant media comments on the subject of "Organized Crime".

A phenomenon that expanded during the 90’s and early 00’s is the Balkan organized one, composed by groups of people, mainly ethnic related, that commit wide-range narcotics trafficking, slave trade and all kinds of illegal actions that require systematic action and organized method of operations.
According to recent Greek police reports, there is a pervasion of Balkan groups in Greece, mainly originating from Albania, and they are considered extremely dangerous and a peril for the stability of the society. In Athens the Albanians specialize in drugs trade and organized burglaries, with some groups that have been arrested; accounting as much as 250 burglaries in a space less than a year. Moreover Turkish groups tend to associate themselves with illegal immigrants trafficking from the East (Pakistan, Middle East), Romanians with illegal prostitution and Bulgarians with forgeries and scams.

A trend to watch is the use of technology and new techniques amongst the members of these groups such as, the use of the internet as a virtual communication world, satellite phones, and offshore companies to launder capital, counter surveillance and so on. Further more and more Balkan groups use Greek territory as a regional base and invest their illegal funds in front companies such as bars, clubs, strip shows and the real estate.
The Albanian groups according to Greek police sources are the primal threat in the sector of organized crime combat in Greece. The proliferation of weaponry originating from Albania is a major source of concern. There are several reasons that explain the above.
There are regions in Albania such as the Kukes town where virtually thousands of weapons are sold freely on a monthly basis without any restraints. Also the existence of organized crime groups within Greece over the previous years has increased considerably the demand for handguns and submachine guns, a need usually filled by Albanian groups importing these weapons from the North.
In 2001 it was recorded that the majority (Up to 90%) of the heroin sold in Greece was managed by Turkish and Albanian groups. The percentage can be estimated at 97% nowadays, whilst the bulk originates from Afghanistan and it is transferred to Greece via Turkey or Bulgaria. A major issue is the low price of heroin in Greece which is less than 25 Euros per gram; the lowest in Europe. The reason for this is the 500% increase on opium production in Afghanistan since 2001, coupled with the increased concentration of Albanian groups in that field. It would not be risky to estimate that the specialization of Albanian groups in such a trade may have political implications as well. It is interesting to note that over the past 15 years there has been a 1,800% increase on overdose deaths in Greece mostly of young people aged 18-35 years old.
Another sector on which Albanians excel in illegal activity is the burglaries. During the first 9 months of 2007, 17 organized groups were disbanded, 15 of those were of Albanian formation and the rest 2 were composed by Greeks, Albanians and Georgians. In general 25-30% of heavy crime related activity is concentrated in the Albanian community residing in Greece, even though it constitutes less than 2.5% of the total population, excluding Albanians of Greek or Vlach origin.
Cannabis is another drug that is being imported in large amounts from Albania. It is considered of low quality and of very low price in comparison with the local production or that of the Middle East. Presently some 70% of the local cannabis trade is of Albanian origin.
Bulgarian groups tend to concentrate on electronic crime through the use of fake credit cards, document forgery, consumer goods (Mainly DVD’s) and banknote counterfeits. Another expanding trade is the illegal adoption one, whereby Bulgarian groups sell newly born to Greek couples.
Turkish groups dominate illegal immigration routes and regularly import Asians to Greece. Up to 500 immigrants trespass illegally Greek borders each week, and that is only in the Eastern Aegean front of the country. In 2004 it was noted that over one million illegal immigrants are “In transit” from Turkey towards the Western European countries. A third of them it was assumed they would be able to exit the country and head towards the European metropolis mostly, thus expanding the yearly capital profit output of organized crime groups dealing with this illegal industry.
In 2007, at least 100 Turkish citizens were arrested accused of participating in this activity, that it is also associated with document forgery in complicity with Pakistani and Iraqi groups in Greece. Especially in the Athens region, there has been a particular expansion of the reach of the above groups that also run protection rackets within their communities.
The combat of illegal immigration is a top priority for the Greek security forces that have managed to repatriate over 2, 2 million illegal immigrants over the past 15 years, along with 150,000 arrests for narcotic related offences, truly impressive figures for a nation of just 11 million citizens in the outermost end of Continental Europe. Since the collapse of the Iron Curtain in 1989-91 organized crime became an everyday reality in Greece with armed robberies increasing as much as 500%, along with a flood of narcotics coming from the Northern and Eastern borders of the country. Moreover trafficking became a lucrative illegal trade and a recent police operation codenamed “Vitrin” that resulted in 75 arrests, proved the existence of a well-formatted Balkan group that earned as much as 30,000 Euros per day from the exploitation of the modern day white slavery.
The current article aims to point towards the understanding of underreported news from the Balkans and from Greece in particular. It has to be noted that the country still lags behind the figures relating to organized crime activity than the Western or Northern Europe and this is due mostly to the intense activity by the Greek security forces. In the future more reports could shade more light in the ongoing battle against organized crime that has its own ethnic and political ramifications apart from the unquestionable police interest. Already the Greek authorities are planning ahead in case Kosovo becomes an independent, because it is widely assumed that this will result in the increase of organized crime related activities in the Balkan

Irnik · Feb 14, 2010

Perix, look at the following maps and make your own conclusions about the "modest" Serbian "dreams":

Greatest expansion of Serbia, ever - 1350 (for 2 decades, only)

Ethnic maps of the Balkans in 1861 and territory populated by Serbs (dark green on the West)

Serbian aspirations in 1862

Serbian aspirations in 1914

Serbian aspirations in the 1990s. Do I see Romanian territories, either?

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