Silesia in Polish culture and history in years ca. 1300 - ca. 1900

Domen · May 13, 2014

People who established Panna Maria (Texas) in 1854, identified as Poles. And they were all from Upper Silesia (led by L. Moczygemba):

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Moczygemba"]Leopold Moczygemba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

=======================================

From this thread:

http://historum.com/american-history/11698-american-ancestry-10.html

JoeGlidden said:
I find it interesting that Polish Immigrants are not listed in the first chart. With Poland having been divided into three sectors, most immigrants listed themselves as German-Poles, Austrian-Poles or Russian-Poles instead of Polish-Germans, etc. etc. The numbers presented, especially for Germans in the 1880s-90s, I can guarantee, are largely Polish immigrants. My Polish ancestors immigrated in the 1880s, all from Prussia and listed themselves as German-Poles in government records. It makes it hard to differentiate how many of those people truly are German, Austrian or Russian. The inclusion of Poles might explain why numbers seem to double or triple in the later decades.

Wacław Kruszka, "Historya Polska w Ameryce", Vol. I, Milwaukee 1905, page 65 - estimated the number of Poles in the USA in 1900 as:

http://liturgicalcenter.org/media//pdfy/Polonia/Polonia/POL_1.pdf

- 650,000 "German" Poles
- 580,000 "Russian" Poles
- 200,000 "Austrian" Poles
- 20,000 "Unknown" Poles
- 450,000 - 550,000 Poles born in the US

In total he estimated 1,9 - 2,0 million Poles, 810 Polish settlements, 517 Polish churches.

Total U.S. population in 1900 was 76 million, of whom 12 million Roman Catholics.

BTW - I'm surprised by low proportion of Poles from Austria (Galicia) among the total. I thought it was more.

Perhaps emigration from Austrian Galicia (and Austrian Silesia) greatly intensified only after year 1900.

======================================

Kruszka collected data for his 1905 book from various local authorities in the U.S. - for example:

CITY OF BUFFALO
Mayor’s Office
Erastus C. Knight, Mayor1.
Frank W. Hinkley, Secretary.
June 8. 1903
I, Erastus C. Knight, Mayor of the City of Buffalo, County of Erie, State of New York, United States of
America, do hereby certify that, to the best of my knowledge, information and belief, there are now
resident in the said City and the immediate suburbs about seventy thousand (70.000) persons of Polish
natiyity or origin.
Witness my hand and the seal of the sald City of Buffalo this 8-th day of June, 1903.
Erastus C. Knight, Mayor. [L. S.]

Kruszka cites this letter in his book on page 60 (see the link I posted above).

slazak · May 17, 2014

I respect the thoughts of Doman but as a Silesian I disagree. Why? Different culture and a different story.

Domen · May 17, 2014

Are you Alex WS from historia.org.pl ???

Each region of Germany has a different culture and history. Yet they are all Germans (maybe except for Bavarians and Rheinlanders

).

In Poland there is also a great diversity of cultures and histories between various regions.

IMO dfferent regional culture and different regional history is not making Silesians less Polish than any other regional group in Poland.

Silesians have a wrong stereotype that only they are "different", while all other regions of Poland are exactly the same.

This is not true, each region has its own specific regional cultural elements and regional historical events.

But of course I respect your different opinion.

slazak · May 17, 2014

Yes, it's me. I keep my promises. You should take care of Silesians, Silesian language etc. There is not the way to say - everything is allright. It doesn't.

Domen · May 17, 2014

Well on historia.org.pl you wrote that you feel as both Polish and Silesian, and this is perfectly fine to me.

But at the same time you wrote that you support Silesian Autonomy, if I remember correctly ???

People are afraid of autonomous regions because we can see what can happen in such regions (check for example Crimea and Putin).

But I agree that the Polish government should support regional cultures and try to preserve Silesian dialect and traditions.

My region - Greater Poland (or Provinz Posen

) - also used to have its own dialect, but now we all basically speak "Hoch Polnisch".

Silesia is among the last regions where regional dialects are still in use.

But Silesians think that only their dialect is different. This is not true - in the past, every region (or even every village!) had its own dialect.

Silesia preserved its local dialect for a longer time because it was politically isolated from the rest of Poland for a longer time.

And in 19th century Silesia schools were organized by German authorities, not Polish - like in autonomous Galicia or in Congress Kingdom.

Most lessons were in German language - only at home they were speaking in Silesian dialect. My grandfather (born in 1904 in Provinz Posen) almost could not write in Polish - he could write perfectly in German. Because his education took place in German-organized schools.

What Silesians and Greater Poles have in common, is being part of the German Empire for a long time.

In Greater Poland before WW1 children had all lessons in German, only religion was in Polish. This is why such events like this took place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrze%C5%9Bnia#Wrze.C5.9Bnia_school_strike_of_1901

slazak · May 17, 2014

I would like to believe that Poland will take care of Silesians - finance f.ex. Dreams? Identity and language. I care about that.

slazak · May 17, 2014

Domen said:
Well on historia.org.pl you wrote that you feel as both Silesian and Polish, and this is perfectly fine to me.

But at the same time you wrote that you support Silesian autonomy, if I remember correctly ???

People are afraid of autonomous regions because we can see what can happen in such regions (see for example Crimea and Putin).

But I agree that the Polish government should support regional cultures and try to preserve Silesian dialect and traditions.

My region - Greater Poland (or Posen Provinz ) - also used to have its own dialect, but now we all basically speak "Hoch Polnisch".

Silesia is among the last regions where regional dialects are still in use.

But Silesians think that only their dialect is different. This is not true - in the past, every region (or even every village!) had its own dialect.

Silesia preserved its local dialect for a longer time because it was politically isolated from the rest of Poland for a longer time.

And in Silesia schools were organized by German (Prussian) authorities, not Polish.

Most lessons were in German language - only at home they were speaking in Silesian dialect. My grandfather (born in 1901 in Provinz Posen) almost could not write in Polish - he could write perfectly in German. Because his education took place in German schools.

I never wrote that I'm the supporter of autonomy.
Silesian dialect was punished. That's true.

All the people in Poland are thinking that Silesians are similar to the Wehrmacht etc. They had no way out...

Domen · May 17, 2014

I hope so too. As I wrote, I support cultural diversity. But we don't need to separate politically in order to achieve this.

I never wrote that I'm the supporter of autonomy.

Oh, OK - in such case sorry for my mistake.

========================================

BTW - just to inform users from other countries, who probably don't know about this:

Polish part of Silesia was autonomous (at least formally) during the Inter-War Period:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Voivodeship_(1920–39)

So Silesian Autonomy is not a totally new concept.

holoow · May 17, 2014

Domen said:
People are afraid of autonomous regions because we can see what can happen in such regions (check for example Crimea and Putin).

I will correct it.

"Polish people are afraid of autonomous regions in Poland and not very afraid of such regions in neighbor countries".

Domen · May 17, 2014

All the people in Poland are thinking that Silesians are similar to the Wehrmacht etc. They had no way out...

I don't think so! But yes, it is sad that many people have such stereotypes...

"Grandfather in the Wehrmacht" is used as a slur to offend people... It is sad.

Also the Wehrmacht is not the same as - for example - the Waffen SS, or even worse - the SS.

French people said "we don't want to die for Danzig" in 1939, but in 1945 French Waffen SS Division defended Danzig...

They had no way out...

Yes, they had no choice, there was conscription to the Wehrmacht. Vast majority of them were not volunteers!

And also people forget that huge number of them deserted and joined the Polish Army in the West.

Polish 1st Armored Division (gen. Maczek) had many Silesians in its ranks - former soldiers of Erwin Rommel from Afrika Korps!

Carolus · May 17, 2014

Domen said:
Each region of Germany has a different culture and history. Yet they are all Germans (maybe except for Bavarians and Rheinlanders ).

I can't speak for Bavarians (and if I did I would have to learn their language

), but I don't think that Rhineland is less German than other regions in Germany. Historically it is even more German than the rest of the country.

Maybe we should open another thread on this.

Is there still a specific Silesian identiy in Silesia? Most of the "original" Silesians fled or were expelled in 1945 or later on. Most of the "new" Silesians are refugees (and their descendants) who were expelled themselves from other Polish regions. So I would expect Silesia to be a kind of melting pot of different regional identities. The old Silesians were spread all over Germany after WW2 (I'm myself a Rheinlander of Silesian descent).

Domen · May 17, 2014

"Polish people are afraid of autonomous regions in Poland and not very afraid of such regions in neighbor countries".

Let me correct again:

"X people are afraid of autonomous regions in X and not very afraid of such regions in Y countries".

This applies to everyone.

Lithuania is also afraid of giving autonomy to areas with Polish majority in the Vilno Region. Or maybe not?

but I don't think that Rhineland is less German than other regions in Germany.

Rhinelanders actually considered Prussians to be "Germanized Slavs, Balts and the like" - not "real Germans".

Anyway - it is the matter of names. The key point is that according to Rhinelanders, Prussians were "savage strangers".

Domen · May 17, 2014

Most of the "original" Silesians fled or were expelled in 1945 or later on.

Not exactly. This is true only for Lower Silesia. In Provinz Oberschlesien most of the population stayed.

Provinz Oberschlesien: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Upper_Silesia"]Province of Upper Silesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

And in that part of Upper Silesia which belonged to Poland already before 1939, almost everyone stayed.

Polish Upper Silesia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Voivodeship_%281920%E2%80%9339%29

Most of the "new" Silesians are refugees (and their descendants) who were expelled themselves from other Polish regions.

In Provinz Oberschlesien the proportion was: 57% natives / 22% Poles from former Polish lands (Soviet Union) / 21% Poles from Poland.

In entire "German" Silesia (Lower and Upper together) proportions were: 28% natives / 40% "Soviet" Poles / 32% Poles from Poland.

And in that part of Upper Silesia which belonged to Poland in 1921 - 1939, almost all inhabitants are the same natives as in 1939.

Domen · May 17, 2014

The old Silesians were spread all over Germany after WW2 (I'm myself a Rheinlander of Silesian descent).

When did your family emigrate from Silesia ???

Carolus · May 17, 2014

Domen said:
Rhinelanders actually considered Prussians to be "Germanized Slavs, Balts and the like" - not "real Germans".

Anyway - it is the matter of names. The key point is that according to Rhinelanders, Prussians were "savage strangers".

The Rhineland as political entity came into existence only in 1818 as the Prussian Rheinprovinz. Before that the Rhineland was part of the French Empire and before that the Rhineland was split up into a lot of different territories. After 1945 the Allied Occoupation Forces in the British and French zone abolished the Rheinprovinz. After that the Rheinprovinz became part of two different federal states in Germany. But I agree the relationship between the Rhineland and Prussia has not always been a love story. OTOH it's same with France.

After Napoleon's defeat the Rhineland changed from an eastern border region to a western region and the capital changed from Paris to Berlin (both located at almost the same distance).

Some parts of the Rhineland (parts of the former duchy of Cleve) were part of Prussia since the 17th century.

The Berliner Tor (Berlin Gate) in the former Prussian fortresse of Wesel (Northern Rhineland):

Domen · May 17, 2014

Historically it is even more German than the rest of the country.

Rhinelanders considered Prussians to be Non-Germans, and barbarians, and savages.

There was a thread about this on this forum already. I just don't remember its name.

Do you know Carolus when did your family come from Silesia to Rheinland? Was it after WW2 or maybe earlier?

Also you wrote to me in a private message some time ago, that your ancestors had a Polish surname.

slazak · May 17, 2014

A large part of the Anders army was Silesians, under the other names. Just like my grandfather. He belived in Korfanty, Anders but never in Pilsudski.

Domen · May 17, 2014

As for origins of modern population of Silesia:

In blue area - nearly entire population was the same in 1950 as in 1938:
In area within red borders - almost 60% of population was the same in 1950 as in 1938:
In green area - nearly entire population was different in 1950 than in 1938:

Carolus · May 17, 2014

Domen said:
When did your family emigrate from Silesia ???

In January 1945 - they were evacuated by the German army when the Soviet troops advanced towards the borders of the Reich. They almost ended up in Dresden which was terribly destroyed in February 1945. My grandfather was called up to the last stand (Volkssturm) and was taken prisoner, but soon afterwards released. My grandmother did not know about his fate and thought he had been probably killed in action. Only in December 1945 they were united again - this time in Saxony (or Thuringia?) in the Soviet occupation zone. Several other members of the family died in the last weeks of the war. In the early 50s they fled to West Germany.

Domen · May 17, 2014

A large part of the Anders army was Silesians, under the other names.

Just like my grandfather. He belived in Korfanty, Anders but never in Pilsudski.

In Greater Poland - just like in Upper Silesia - there was also no love for Pilsudski.

Pilsudski did not help us during the Greater Poland Uprising in 1918 - 1919. He cared more for Vilno than for Poznan.

And there is no surprise about this because Piłsudski was born in the Vilno Region and he lived in Vilno as a child and later.

My paternal grandfather hated Pilsudski because his military service was prolonged due to 1926 May Coup.

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