Slavic presence in Byzantium : period 6th-12th century

Joined May 2011
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Macedonia, Eastern Roman Empire
Do you like Dolmada? Ask your local gourmet where the word and the delicious snack come from – not Greece.

Dolma is a recipe common in the former Ottoman countries. No one knows it's origin.

As for the Pontic dialect I haven't read anywhere that it is of Slavic origin, nor the Pontians themselves.
 
Joined Dec 2011
4,129 Posts | 8+
Scandinavia, Balkans, Anatolia, Hatay
As for the Pontic dialect I haven't read anywhere that it is of Slavic origin, nor the Pontians themselves.

And you never will. Who said that really? It is like saying Danish is a romance language :zany:
 
Joined Nov 2011
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Bacchus Marsh Australia
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Dolma is a recipe common in the former Ottoman countries. No one knows it's origin.
As for the Pontic dialect I haven't read anywhere that it is of Slavic origin, nor the Pontians themselves.

The forced settlement of Slavs in Pontus is mentioned with source materials in Edward Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'. I will dig through it and find the quote and commentary; it is a six-volume work, vols. 5 and 6 will have the material. Hellenization of subject peoples was Byzantine policy. You won't read anywhere that Pontian is of Slavic origin because, logically no Greek dialect can be. The 'Empire of Trebizond' (Pontus) was an isolated anachronism before 1460 when the Turks conquered it. This late conquest has much to do with the region’s retention of modified Greek Language and Customs until the expulsion, and as I’ve mentioned until the present in Australia, at least. The dialect itself is a result of isolation in an increasingly Turkish Muslim Anatolia. As for Dolmades, Turkish Dolma, older distaff family members unabashedly said, "Turkey" and Yia-Yias know everything! [/FONT]
 
Joined Dec 2011
4,129 Posts | 8+
Scandinavia, Balkans, Anatolia, Hatay
Last edited:
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The forced settlement of Slavs in Pontus is mentioned with source materials in Edward Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'. I will dig through it and find the quote and commentary; it is a six-volume work, vols. 5 and 6 will have the material. Hellenization of subject peoples was Byzantine policy. You won't read anywhere that Pontian is of Slavic origin because, logically no Greek dialect can be. The 'Empire of Trebizond' (Pontus) was an isolated anachronism before 1460 when the Turks conquered it. This late conquest has much to do with the region’s retention of modified Greek Language and Customs until the expulsion, and as I’ve mentioned until the present in Australia, at least. The dialect itself is a result of isolation in an increasingly Turkish Muslim Anatolia. As for Dolmades, Turkish Dolma, older distaff family members unabashedly said, "Turkey" and Yia-Yias know everything! [/FONT]

Hello!
Basically don't even bother. Such things are generalizations belonging to a different era of historiography. Forced settlement of Slavs didn't exterminate local population. The Gauls earlier were probably more and they left almost no trace. Pontic - Greeks, Laz and Turks have not much in difference because they are more of local neolithic origin than their ethnic name reveals. Even the Greeks and Anatolians in classical times were more of a neolithic offspring than children of the Indo-European invaders (proto-Greeks, proto-Anatolians).

As for the dolma thing I don't get it. Personally, I don't care but mind that tomato and paprika were not native in Greece nor Anatolia. As for grape leaves they were not present in Central Asia!!! I've been discussing this with my Turkish wife out of curiosity and most of the times we agree that common dishes are obviously innovations that came late and at the same time into both cultures.
 
Joined Dec 2011
4,129 Posts | 8+
Scandinavia, Balkans, Anatolia, Hatay
How would one go about getting one of those? :lol:

Well, it is 100% on you I guess :) If you're from a country having issues with Turkey and vise versa, all you need is open mind, rationalism and remember that we're all children of this earth.
 
Joined May 2011
1,747 Posts | 0+
Macedonia, Eastern Roman Empire
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The forced settlement of Slavs in Pontus is mentioned with source materials in Edward Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'. I will dig through it and find the quote and commentary; it is a six-volume work, vols. 5 and 6 will have the material. Hellenization of subject peoples was Byzantine policy. You won't read anywhere that Pontian is of Slavic origin because, logically no Greek dialect can be. The 'Empire of Trebizond' (Pontus) was an isolated anachronism before 1460 when the Turks conquered it. This late conquest has much to do with the region’s retention of modified Greek Language and Customs until the expulsion, and as I’ve mentioned until the present in Australia, at least. The dialect itself is a result of isolation in an increasingly Turkish Muslim Anatolia. As for Dolmades, Turkish Dolma, older distaff family members unabashedly said, "Turkey" and Yia-Yias know everything! [/FONT]

Because some Slavs settled in Pontus it doesn't mean that Pontians ae of Slavic origin. Slavic people settled in various places, like Sicily, Crete, etc.

Also I can't understand how dolma can be Turkish, since dolma isn't common in central Asia today, where Turks came from. On the contrary it's a recipe common in the Middle East+Balkans.

As for the rest I tottaly agree with Midas.
 
Joined Dec 2011
4,129 Posts | 8+
Scandinavia, Balkans, Anatolia, Hatay
Basically, what is wrong here and not just here but in general the old view of invaders is that they wiped out populations. Yes, small groups of people in thinly populated areas were usually wiped out. However, invaders like e.g Turks had better things to do than raping and massacring people (That is an ignorant view of chauvinists). They had an economy to run and international politics.

DNA doesn't define nations, but nevertheless you can get some useful conclusions from it. The modern sample size in the last 3-4 years in both Hellas and Anatolia is huge. Just have a look how much amount of R1a is available in those areas and there you have a clear image on the effect of these invasions.

Also, when it comes to Pontic people you can tell from their look they're from the Black Sea. It is too freaking obvious if you take a close look. It doesn't matter if you're dealing with a Greek, Kartvelian or Turkish speaker, I bet those people look more like the Kaskas once living there and less to the Greek, Turkish and Kartvelian settlers.
 
Joined May 2011
832 Posts | 2+
Bulgaria
As for the Pontic dialect I haven't read anywhere that it is of Slavic origin, nor the Pontians themselves.

Haven't heard of Slavs there as well. At least not of compact Slavs who left distinct heritage.
There were, however, compact masses of Bulgarians in Southern Asia Minor, just north of Cyprus, where later the Karamanid emirate was.

Also, when it comes to Pontic people you can tell from their look they're from the Black Sea. It is too freaking obvious if you take a close look.
What do you mean?
 
Joined Nov 2011
131 Posts | 0+
Bacchus Marsh Australia
Hello!
Basically don't even bother....As for the dolma thing I don't get it.

Thank You, I'll take your advice.

As for Dolma I wouldn't look for the original in Central Asia either (the desert and climate isn't good for viticulture), a little further south in Fars; where the climate and civilization produced delicacies that the Romans copied. (Add some new ingredients from the Americas after the C16th.) Forgive my Anglo-Saxon teasing to the degree I marvel at the sophistication of your technical English.

Καλά Χριστούγεννα / Весела Коледа / Yeni Yılınız Kutlu Olsun
 
Joined Nov 2011
131 Posts | 0+
Bacchus Marsh Australia
Because some Slavs settled in Pontus it doesn't mean that Pontians ae of Slavic origin. Slavic people settled in various places, like Sicily, Crete, etc.

Also I can't understand how dolma can be Turkish, since dolma isn't common in central Asia today, where Turks came from. On the contrary it's a recipe common in the Middle East+Balkans.

As for the rest I totally agree with Midas.

My point is that there is NO Slavic legacy either amongst the Greek Pontic immigrant communities or in the mountains behind Trabzon where people speak Turkish and are Muslims but have the same musical traditions as the now expelled Greek Christian Pontiaki. The Byzantine policy of Hellenising and Christianising subject populations worked then as had earlier with the Isaurians. In Pontus the Slavic settlement has been absorbed as has happened elsewhere, but not always everywhere, in non-Slavic Europe.

Another example? In Germany Slavic surnames abound but the inheritors of those names would consider ridiculous the idea that they are anything but German. This is distinct from the small populations of Wends in Germany who are Slavs and maintain their own language.

The Turks have an ancient history mostly recorded by their enemies in their movement from East to West. They are the same Tu-Li'u-Chu who were a danger to the Chinese dynasties to the South. They are the modern Uyghurs of China and Turkomen of Central Asia. They became mercenaries to the Caliphs of Baghdad before overthrowing them and erecting their Seljuk Empire, centuries before the tribe of Othman became an empire. They absorbed Islam and the refinements of Iranian, Middle Eastern and Byzantine culture while maintaining their language and some pre-Islamic customs.

Dolma is a verbal noun of the Turkish verb dolmak, 'to be stuffed', and means 'stuffed thing', please let Midas know. What’s my point? There was an Ottoman Empire that affected South-Eastern Europe far more than the modern ethnomaniacs care to admit. Greeks, either Phanariotes or converts to Islam, eminently assisted that empire. We’ve all done it. Any traditionally rich Irish family has at some time converted to the Protestant or the Official English Church of Ireland and reconverted to Catholicism when safe to do so.

Καλά Χριστούγεννα / Весела Коледа / Yeni Yılınız Kutlu Olsun
 
Joined Dec 2011
4,129 Posts | 8+
Scandinavia, Balkans, Anatolia, Hatay
Thank You, I'll take your advice.

As for Dolma I wouldn't look for the original in Central Asia either (the desert and climate isn't good for viticulture), a little further south in Fars; where the climate and civilization produced delicacies that the Romans copied. (Add some new ingredients from the Americas after the C16th.) Forgive my Anglo-Saxon teasing to the degree I marvel at the sophistication of your technical English.

Καλά Χριστούγεννα / Весела Коледа / Yeni Yılınız Kutlu Olsun

Don't worry I didn't perceive you as rude or something. Basically, about dolma I definitely agree. Of course I know what it means but don't forget there are middle eastern delicacies with Turkish names that are not present in Turkey. The reason is as you stated that "the Ottoman Empire affected South-Eastern Europe" + the middle east I would add. In the point of assisting lets not forget that some of the most terrible, corrupted and filthy tax collectors of the Ottoman Empire were Greeks. Greeks were as angry on them as they were on the high gate of the Ottomans. In any case, I think we come some reasonable conclusions.
 

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