Where is the democracy? I watch my interest and this of my country. Yes for you Stalin is hero becouse Soviet Union was of the allies. Yes you don't have to respect my opinion. It is your choice. Why don't you ask Ukrainians who is more bad? Stalin killed 6 millions Ukrainians and also many people who didn't support his politic. Around 25-26 million men died in WW2. Hitler killed 6 million Jews, 7-8 million soldiers and politicians who didn't support him. Soviet army did many terrible things but hey they are winners.
The greatest German leader in history
- Thread starter abighistorynerd
- Start date
The very reason why my vote goes for Kniva. The Goth who successfully plundered four Roman provinces and managed to murder two Roman emperors at Abritus, an Augustus and a Caesar.
Doenitz was the leader of Germany at best for a few days before he had no choice but to accept unconditional surrender. Hitler obviously came close to getting Germany wiped off the map plus commiting the greatest crimes in human history at least up to 1945. I will stick with my choice the first leader of West Germany as East Germany was not a rousing success story.
Leftyhunter
France and Germany gave the Sudetenland to Germany and Hitler latter in 1939 just graped the rest. France and the UK went to war with Germany over Hitler's invasion but obviously by the time the mobilized their forces the Nazis and Soviets had conquered Poland.
Leftyhunter
Democracy is neither here nor there. Do you respect the opinion of somebody who believes the Earth is flat because it's the democratic thing to do?
Stalin is not relevant either.
You chose not to take stock of the issue of deficit spending, that amounts to admitting you don't know what you are talking about. So why should I respect ignorance on a forum dedicated to history?
Joined Jul 2022
43 Posts | 37+
Thailand
Hitler took one of the wealthiest countries in the world and turned it into a pile of rubble, I suppose whether he was good or bad depends entirely on how much you like rubble.
No disagreement here. But even without looking at the end result, the premises also were utterly wrong.
Joined Jul 2022
43 Posts | 37+
Thailand
The greatest crimes in human history. He's definitely in the running, but the more I read about the Japanese, the more I see them on a par with the Germans, also Genghis Khan can't be overlooked and a couple of Chinese civil wars.
Joined Jul 2022
43 Posts | 37+
Thailand
Actually this post has maybe inadvertently created a more interesting question, who do we and who don't we consider German in history. Had by Charlemagne's time the Franks stopped being considered German, or by Penda's time in England. How about the Vikings or the Vandals? And when did people start being German, such as the Prussians? was Austro-Hungary ever German?
I will still stick with Hitler. Yes of course Japan committed many war crimes but they didn't try to wipe an entire people. In China ,Japan had up to an estimated 600k puppet army of collaporationist troops.
Leftyhunter
Austria - Hungary was a multi- ethnic Empire . Vikings are commonly understood to be Scandinavian. England has always been multi ethnic at least since Roman times but there where Germanic tribes that immigrated to England such has the Angles and Saxons.
Germany has we understand it today is a more modern concept and Germany itself did establish itself has a unified political entity untill 1878.
Leftyhunter
Joined Jul 2022
43 Posts | 37+
Thailand
Scandinavia is a place not an ethnicity, it was where the Germans came from, the modern days Scandinavians are just the ones that didn't migrate.
Joined Jul 2022
43 Posts | 37+
Thailand
Hitler didn't try to wipe out just one people, people always forget the Roma and the Sinti. Also he killed more Slavs than any other group, and I doubt they would have been around for long if he had .
Maybe not because the Scandinavians have their own languages and the Finnish language isn't even related to German. The orion's of the Germanic people gets rather complicated there certainly not all tall and blond.
Leftyhunter
Joined Mar 2012
4,690 Posts | 1,352+
Bumpkinburg
The definition of “German” is a bit confusing because of cultural and language differences between countries. In English, Germany typically refers to the modern state and can refer to the Kingdom of Germany/Kingdom of Romans/East Francia established by the treaty of Verdun. German is a subsection of West Germanic which in turn is a subsection of Germanic.
So, in my opinion, the treaty of Verdun and the establishment of East Francia is a good clean beginning of what we can call Germany and German. But I think it’s splitting hairs if earlier Frankish Kings aren’t considered German. So, no argument from me against anyone who wants to pick Charlemagne—but I’d say the same thing if this was “Greatest French Kings” thread. Again, with France, I’d say the Treaty of Verdun is a good starting point.
But I wouldn’t say East Germanic Kings (Goths, Vandals, Gepids and such). Their legacy can be found in Germany, but also in many other European cultures, including nearly every West European culture, from Iceland to Sweden to the Balkans, Ukraine, Italy, France, and Spain… and the cultural footprint is likely stronger in those regions than modern Germany. The Migration era was a very messy (but also fascinating) time period
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Why should being good or bad for Bulgaria and/or for Bulgarians be the most important factor in deciding how good or bad a person was?
Germania was a Roman geographic term. The Kingdom of the West Franks or of Germany was founded more or less in 843 and contained most of the area considered to be present day germany and lots of neighboring lands. As part of the Holy Roman Empire it lasted until 1806.
The German Confederation lasted from 1815 to 1866, so I don't see why people say that Germany was created in 1871. The North German Confederation of 1867 was enlarged in 1871 to include (some) southern German states and renamed the Deutsches Reich or German Realm. It continued under the regimes of the German Empire, the "Wimar Republic", and Nazi Germany. And so the so-called "Third Reich" was actually still the so-called "Second Reich". And I am not certain whether the present Federal Republic of Germny sould be counted as the Second Reich, the Third Reich, or up to the Tenth Reich. I have never cared to count reiches. But the German Empire was not the first German State unless someone has some very specific definitions, presumableychosen for the specific purpsoe of claiming that the German Empire was the first German state.
I thought that I knew a fair amount about German history. What famous historic event happened in 1878 that created Germany?
The German Confederation lasted from 1815 to 1866, so I don't see why people say that Germany was created in 1871. The North German Confederation of 1867 was enlarged in 1871 to include (some) southern German states and renamed the Deutsches Reich or German Realm. It continued under the regimes of the German Empire, the "Wimar Republic", and Nazi Germany. And so the so-called "Third Reich" was actually still the so-called "Second Reich". And I am not certain whether the present Federal Republic of Germny sould be counted as the Second Reich, the Third Reich, or up to the Tenth Reich. I have never cared to count reiches. But the German Empire was not the first German State unless someone has some very specific definitions, presumableychosen for the specific purpsoe of claiming that the German Empire was the first German state.
I thought that I knew a fair amount about German history. What famous historic event happened in 1878 that created Germany?
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
As a national polity of the German people, yes, the Whilhemine German Empire was indeed the first German State.
Ok I was off seven years. Before 1871 there was no Germany . There were German speaking countries but they were not united and they didn't call themselves Germany. So Germany started in 1871.
Leftyhunter
Yes, and, why should having been good for foreign country B count for deciding that a leader was the greatest in his home country A?
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