The Ottoman Empire's warships- was it mostly galleys until the late 17th century?

wigglywaffles · Oct 23, 2022

From what I could tell from history books, most of the Ottoman fleet was made up of galleys until after the Cretan war in the late 17th century. Is that the case? I was curious because I noticed on the naval ships of the Ottoman Empire wiki page someone had asserted (without a source) that the Ottoman Empire had galleons with 50 or 60 cannons before the 1650s! Is that the case or is this more of Wikipedia vandalization that damages history?

I suppose they could be private merchant vassals armed with cannons

List of sailing ships of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here is a link to the page as a reference.

UltraPampers · Oct 24, 2022

It is true that the fleet was made mostly of galleys, but the Ottomans also built some galleons in the 1500-1600´s. They were not "private merchant vassals", but at least some were state-constructed ships. They also had galleassess, some of which probably appear on the list as 50-60 gun ships. The picture on the wiki page is of a galleass built in 1495. Unsourced list is bad and I would not trust it literally, but that's Wiki - and in this case it could be based on real historical sources.

E.g. Ottoman fleet of some 240 galleys, 16 galleasses and three galleons was sent to Tunis in 1574 (Agoston 2022, Ottoman Military & Naval Power after Lepanto).

Some reading:
Guleryuz (2004): Ottoman Sailing Ships from Galleys to Galleons
Bostan (2020) "Why did the Ottomans Temporarily Abandon the Construction of Galleons (1656-1682)": https://cdn.istanbul.edu.tr/file/JTA6CLJ8T5/ECC19248903E4D33B45CAFC6BE3B8A85
Guido Ercole (2011): Vascelli e Fregate della Serenissima: claims that Venetians captured five Ottoman galleons and copied one of them in 1669.

Master´s thesis on the subject with some useful sources:
https://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12624663/index.pdf

The text includes sourced statements that in 1644 Ottomans were building a galleon -type ship (possibly an experiment). Also a table on page 54 tells us that 10 galleys were under construction and 29 in repair in 1652, but also that 3 galleons were under construction and 10 in repair (which means they were built or captured as prizes before that).

johnincornwall · Oct 24, 2022

Galleys would generally be of more use in the Med, where the sailing season is generally calm and they could move fast. However there would be times when a galleon would be more useful.

Spain had the disadvantage of having to fund a strong Atlantic fleet (where galleys weren't too much use) and a strong Mediterranean fleet (where they were) - or not, as the budgets and manning may allow!

REITRE · Oct 24, 2022

Idris Bostan has made collaborations with spanish military history publisher Desperta Ferro. According to one article about the Ottoman Navy in a monographic about the batlle of Lepanto, the ottoman galleon (kalyon) was used as a merchant not as a warship until mid 17th century. It seems that the term was used more as a generic term for round ship than to refer a proper gallion.

He states that the things changed in the mentioned Cretan War: During the Cretan War, in 1645, the Ottomans had to resort to the help of Barbary galleons and the hiring of dutch ships. The attempt to build and crew their own war galleons, seems to have been problematic as the abstract of the work linked by UltraPampers says, and for a time the ottomans stopped galleon shipbuilding.

wigglywaffles · Oct 24, 2022

Yes, but the idea that the Ottomans had multiple war Galleons with 50-60 cannons in the early 17th century seems to be like a bit of stretch does it not? I had read in actual historical books they mostly used galleons as transports when they did before the mid 17th century, and i think putting that many cannons on a transport seems to be a bit unlikely and makes the transport much less effective.

Arminius · Oct 24, 2022

UltraPampers said:
It is true that the fleet was made mostly of galleys, but the Ottomans also built some galleons in the 1500-1600´s. They were not "private merchant vassals", but at least some were state-constructed ships. They also had galleassess, some of which probably appear on the list as 50-60 gun ships. The picture on the wiki page is of a galleass built in 1495. Unsourced list is bad and I would not trust it literally, but that's Wiki - and in this case it could be based on real historical sources.

E.g. Ottoman fleet of some 240 galleys, 16 galleasses and three galleons was sent to Tunis in 1574 (Agoston 2022, Ottoman Military & Naval Power after Lepanto).

Some reading:
Guleryuz (2004): Ottoman Sailing Ships from Galleys to Galleons
Bostan (2020) "Why did the Ottomans Temporarily Abandon the Construction of Galleons (1656-1682)": https://cdn.istanbul.edu.tr/file/JTA6CLJ8T5/ECC19248903E4D33B45CAFC6BE3B8A85
Guido Ercole (2011): Vascelli e Fregate della Serenissima: claims that Venetians captured five Ottoman galleons and copied one of them in 1669.

Master´s thesis on the subject with some useful sources:
https://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12624663/index.pdf

The text includes sourced statements that in 1644 Ottomans were building a galleon -type ship (possibly an experiment). Also a table on page 54 tells us that 10 galleys were under construction and 29 in repair in 1652, but also that 3 galleons were under construction and 10 in repair (which means they were built or captured as prizes before that).

Great sources thanks

REITRE · Oct 24, 2022

The wikipedia link mentions the following galleon: ?, 60? cannon, captured by the Kingdom of Naples in 1618.
I have checked Fernandez Duro´s history about the navy of the great duke of Osuna, viceroy of Naples. It seems that Gregorio Leti in his biography of Osuna, mentions the capture of a 1.000 ton 60 galleon with the Mother Sultan aboard. But he was wrong.
The real history is that three spanish (neapolitan) galleys, disguised as ottomans, under captain Simon Costa made a raid in the Agean sea. There Costa, obtained information that the "galleon of the Mother Sultan" was in route from el Cairo to Constantinople carrying the Bey of el Cairo and his family, an agá of Cyprus and around 12 maidens for the seraglio. Costa waited for the "galleon" off Tenedos and after "saluting the banner of the Sultan" assaulted it taking the defenders by surprise. The big ship, besides transporting around 30 "notables" was laden with jewels, silks and slaves. It´s obvious that it was a transport, it seems that property of the Mother Sultan, not a warship, though Costa believed that the prize could be used as such. As for the armament, he says that he had 10 guns and 8 swivel guns, so a lightly armed transport, nothing surprising.

wigglywaffles · Oct 24, 2022

This feels like a case of that Bulgarian housewife randomly making history stuff up on Wikipedia and massively damaging historical education because people just accept Wiki assertions as truth.

Ichon · Oct 24, 2022

wigglywaffles said:
Yes, but the idea that the Ottomans had multiple war Galleons with 50-60 cannons in the early 17th century seems to be like a bit of stretch does it not? I had read in actual historical books they mostly used galleons as transports when they did before the mid 17th century, and i think putting that many cannons on a transport seems to be a bit unlikely and makes the transport much less effective.

Cannons in that era varied hugely in size- 50-60 cannon of which only a half dozen were large calibre is entirely possible but I agree that it seems very unlikely the Ottomans themselves had more than a handful to a dozen galleons between constructed and captured. They did frequently hire Europeans who often gleefully partook in the chance to inflict some damage on current enemies and gain extra income in cooperation with the Ottomans from it.

Keep · Oct 24, 2022

The Ottomans did indeed have some carracks or galleons in their arsenal, the Portuguese mentioned and described them to some extent in the Red Sea and Indian Ocean in the 16th century.

However, they were neither very numerous, as the Ottomans mainly operated in closed seas with weak winds like the Red Sea and the Mediterranean, nor very sophisticated, having shallow draughts that did not allow them to brave the open seas very effectively, which wasn't a priority for them anyway.

When the Turks besieged the Portuguese fortress of Diu in India in 1538, the chronicler and scrivener Gaspar Correia wrote in chapter 116 of his Lendas da Índia that besides many galleys, the great Ottoman armada incorporated "a further five galleons, of four masts each, with mizzen and counter-mizzen and three top-sails, each with four heavy guns per side, and above twenty falcões that shot stone; dangerous ships to sail, for they had little draught and no keel." Plus six "supply carracks" that carried artillery.

The fact that they had four masts with top sails shows that the Ottomans were putting some effort to keep up with the newer ship designs, but 8 heavy guns and 20 light guns with "dangerously shallow draught and no keel" was definitely not that impressive even by 1538 standards. I agree with @REITRE that they were probably converted merchants.

And since war is never just about the weapons themselves, Correia also observed that the sailors in the service of the Ottomans - probably Arabs drawn from their imperial territories - were "...poorly dextrous in turning the [lateen] sail around, in which they take half an hour".

Mangekyou · Oct 27, 2022

They preferred Galleys as they were more suited for the Med, which was their major naval territory. The Galley family was perfectly suited to coastal raiding which the Ottomans did alot of.

wigglywaffles · Oct 30, 2022

well yeah, thats why i am supscious of the claims their fleets seemed to have so many 50 to 60 galleons

REITRE · Oct 31, 2022

Mangekyou said:
They preferred Galleys as they were more suited for the Med, which was their major naval territory. The Galley family was perfectly suited to coastal raiding which the Ottomans did alot of.

Yes, in the 17th century the galleys were still useful for amphibious and coastal operations, but the times were changing.
Barbary corsairs realized sooner than the ottoman navy, that it was advantageous to "invest" in round ships. In fact they benefitted of "foreign" influence. With the treaty of London (1604), english corsairs were left without a job and a bunch of them opted to migrate in search of employment to North Africa. Also, other european joined the ranks of the barbary corsairs, among them carpenters and shipbuliders. In 1607, the dutch Simon de Danser (aka Simon Reis or Deli Reis) arrived at Algiers and started a dazzling carreer as corsair using round ships. He is credited with being the main influence in the algerine corsairs adopting round ships for their raids. Around 1640 the algerine had near 70 round ships.

In the other side, despite Spain, France and Venice still had galleys, they would also start to rely increasingly in round ships for their operations, so well before the War of Candia the ottomans should had taken note of it. In the battle of Cape Celidonia (1616) a 55 strong ottoman galley fleet attacked a spanish squadron of 5 warships (2 galleons and 3 naos) plus a small ship (a patax). Though the galleys have the advantage of the light winds, they ottoman were defeated.
By 1646, it was obvious that the sailing ship had taken the lead in the Mediterranean. When the spanish and french navies fought at Orbetello, near the coast and with light breeze, the galleys of both sides were tasked with towing the sailing warships.

Mangekyou · Oct 31, 2022

REITRE said:
Yes, in the 17th century the galleys were still useful for amphibious and coastal operations, but the times were changing.
Barbary corsairs realized sooner than the ottoman navy, that it was advantageous to "invest" in round ships. In fact they benefitted of "foreign" influence. With the treaty of London (1604), english corsairs were left without a job and a bunch of them opted to migrate in search of employment to North Africa. Also, other european joined the ranks of the barbary corsairs, among them carpenters and shipbuliders. In 1607, the dutch Simon de Danser (aka Simon Reis or Deli Reis) arrived at Algiers and started a dazzling carreer as corsair using round ships. He is credited with being the main influence in the algerine corsairs adopting round ships for their raids. Around 1640 the algerine had near 70 round ships.

In the other side, despite Spain, France and Venice still had galleys, they would also start to rely increasingly in round ships for their operations, so well before the War of Candia the ottomans should had taken note of it. In the battle of Cape Celidonia (1616) a 55 strong ottoman galley fleet attacked a spanish squadron of 5 warships (2 galleons and 3 naos) plus a small ship (a patax). Though the galleys have the advantage of the light winds, they ottoman were defeated.
By 1646, it was obvious that the sailing ship had taken the lead in the Mediterranean. When the spanish and french navies fought at Orbetello, near the coast and with light breeze, the galleys of both sides were tasked with towing the sailing warships.

The Ottomans preferred oared ships and used sail ships as secondary until probably the mid 17th century, preferring them due to the maneuverability and the fact they couldn't be becalmed like sail ships. It suited their raiding style. They were called Cekdiri.. Even when they moved more to sail to help combat the Venetians more and so they could fight more in oceans, they still maintained a class of ship equal to the Frigate, rather than ship of the line, which they had minimal of. At the battle of Navarino (1827) they only had 3 ships of the line, most of their ships were smaller raider type ships and fireships. Their economy couldn't sustain a navy of the type they eventually had (at one point they had the third biggest navy in quantity).

dubsar · Nov 1, 2022

johnincornwall said:
Galleys would generally be of more use in the Med, where the sailing season is generally calm and they could move fast. However there would be times when a galleon would be more useful.

That is maybe understating things. In the 16th century, sailing ships were not as capable as in 1800. Sailing ships in the Atlantic style could find themselves becalmed with galleys darting out to get past them or attack them with big guns from a blind spot. Those heavy-built, high-decked ships with lots of guns were really hard for galleys to take, but if they could not move it did not matter (and the biggest guns on the prow of a galley were bigger than any one gun on a similar roundship). So galleys were important for Mediterranean warfare into the 17th century, even though sailing ships could carry more guns and take more gunfire.

John F. Guilmartin has written some good academic books on the topic.

Keep · Nov 1, 2022

dubsar said:
That is maybe understating things. In the 16th century, sailing ships were not as capable as in 1800. Sailing ships in the Atlantic style could find themselves becalmed with galleys darting out to get past them or attack them with big guns from a blind spot. Those heavy-built, high-decked ships with lots of guns were really hard for galleys to take, but if they could not move it did not matter (and the biggest guns on the prow of a galley were bigger than any one gun on a similar roundship). So galleys were important for Mediterranean warfare into the 17th century, even though sailing ships could carry more guns and take more gunfire.

John F. Guilmartin has written some good academic books on the topic.

Guilmartin isn't a bad author, however, while it's true that 16th century ships were not as capable as those in the 1800 (obviously) and galleys could move around becalmed fully-rigged ships, it wasn't exactly a rock-paper-scissors sort of situation. At the Battle of the Strait of Hormuz in 1553, 15 Turkish galleys sorrounded and bombarded a becalmed Portuguese galleon but were unable to sink it before the wind picked up again and they had to scatter lest other Portuguese ships gained up on them.

Haakbus · Nov 13, 2022

Do we have much information on the numbers and sizes of the guns?

Mangekyou · Nov 13, 2022

Keep said:
Guilmartin isn't a bad author, however, while it's true that 16th century ships were not as capable as those in the 1800 (obviously) and galleys could move around becalmed fully-rigged ships, it wasn't exactly a rock-paper-scissors sort of situation. At the Battle of the Strait of Hormuz in 1553, 15 Turkish galleys sorrounded and bombarded a becalmed Portuguese galleon but were unable to sink it before the wind picked up again and they had to scatter lest other Portuguese ships gained up on them.

I don't think the idea of the galleys was ever to necessarily sink another ship, unless the class was similar, but to board it and capture it. The Ottoman Galleys did do well against other sail ships as the guns on the naval galleys were usually on the bow or stern of the boat, made it dangerous to sailing ships.

Keep · Nov 13, 2022

Mangekyou said:
I don't think the idea of the galleys was ever to necessarily sink another ship, unless the class was similar, but to board it and capture it. The Ottoman Galleys did do well against other sail ships as the guns on the naval galleys were usually on the bow or stern of the boat, made it dangerous to sailing ships.

Regardless, the fact that galleys were open topped and low made boarding a tall galleon, carrack or war-caravel (whose designs took into consideration such a possibility, which is why they had tall fore and aft castles) an extremely hazardous proposition. At the Battle of Gulf of Oman, a formation of Ottoman galleys was disrupted by a single cannoball that threw one of them adrift, impairing the rest, and left them vulnerable to be grappled by Portuguese war-caravels and boarded.

Mangekyou · Nov 13, 2022

Keep said:
Regardless, the fact that galleys were open topped and low made boarding a tall galleon, carrack or war-caravel (whose designs took into consideration such a possibility, which is why they had tall fore and aft castles) an extremely hazardous proposition. At the Battle of Gulf of Oman, a formation of Ottoman galleys was disrupted by a single cannoball that threw one of them adrift, impairing the rest, and left them vulnerable to be grappled by Portuguese war-caravels and boarded.

That's true but even in that battle the Portuguese had to regroup and go over their tactics again, as the Ottomans outmanoeuvred them. Caravels were underrated ships imho, and were a good match for the Ottomans Galleys.

The Portuguese sailing ships though, didn't always fare so well and we see that in the Red Sea, when the Ottoman Privateer and later Admiral, Safer Reis, defeats the Portuguese at Diu, Bab al-Mandab. Mocha (Portuguese attack) and Kamaran, being able to board and capture a majority of the Portuguese ships, in these battles.

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The Ottoman Empire's warships- was it mostly galleys until the late 17th century?

wigglywaffles

List of sailing ships of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

UltraPampers

johnincornwall

REITRE

wigglywaffles

Arminius

REITRE

wigglywaffles

Ichon

Keep

Mangekyou

wigglywaffles

REITRE

Mangekyou

dubsar

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Haakbus

Mangekyou

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