Were the Lamtuna dynasty of the Almoravids a black dynasty?

Before you open up any racial discussion, please define your racial terms. Because they are not obvious, nor are they universal. Specifically, define Black person.

Gaslightinghatestruth090 said:

You are speaking english so this is the universal definition for you:

Black people is a term that is used for a racial group of people with a dark skin color.

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Interesting definition. Because there's native Africans without light skin and those labeled "white" with darker skin than those.

It's almost like the concept of oversimplified labeling via bias and personal agendas across a couple centuries changing what's included is...pointless and inconsistent

Gaslightinghatestruth090 said:

From Ibn Idhari's description of Abu Bakr's black complexioned son Ibrahim to Ibn Khallikan's reference to cavalry to lamta (sanhaja sub tribe) shields being called Sudan, are the lamtuna, closest to the sudan (ethinic groups) according to Al-Bakri, black?

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The comment by Ibn Idhari about the complexion of Ibrahim - which also notes that "it is not known who his mother was" - could easily be read as implying that the rest of the Almoravid leaders, and the Almoravids in general, were not black in complexion, and that is why it was notable that Ibrahim was black in skin complexion. In other words, the author might be making note of Ibrahim's black skin color standing out specifically because it was noteworthy for being different from the rest or the usual range of skin colors for the leaders from that group. This is not to say that the only circumstances in which an author might make note of someone's skin color is if it were considered different or out of the ordinary, but simply to point out that this is another quite plausible reading of the purpose behind that statement about his skin color.

The way the sources are written actually makes it clear that there is a sharp distinction being made between "the Sudan" (black peoples) and the Almoravids, such that it is quite clear that the Almoravids were not considered a black dynasty or group by their contemporaries or those who lived shortly after their time. You can see some of the sources quoted in these two posts I made in older threads to see this:



In all likelihood the author was alluding to Ibrahim's unknown mother being a black woman, and Ibrahim thereby being black in skin complexion, not to Abu Bakr ibn Umar al-Lamtuni actually being black.

What reference to cavalry are you talking about by Ibn Khallikan? If you are referring to Yusuf ibn Tashfin or perhaps another Almoravid leader obtaining a personal guard of black slave soldiers who were cavaliers/horsemen rather than infantry (if I recall correctly there is such a reference in a source that another poster mentioned to me in a discussion a long time ago, maybe that source was Ibn Khallikan) in addition to obtaining a guard of white slave soldiers as well, that wouldn't specifically point to the dynasty's leaders being black, as using slave soldiers from different backgrounds than that of the ruler as a guard was apparently not that rare in the Islamic world at that time.

On "lamt', that is a word referring to the oryx, an animal which was used to make some very sturdy and reliable shields in the Middle Ages. Those shields were made and used in the bilad al-Sudan and also in the lands of the Saharan Berbers, and there was a significant trade of these types of shields from the bilad al-Sudan to peoples to the north of their area for a while. There was some earlier discussion of the lamt oryx hide shields and the fact that many of these highly regarded shields were made in the bilad al-Sudan in an earlier thread:


You can see an example of a type of lamt shield here:

No, they are Sanhaya or Lamtuna berbers. Some berbers have very dark complexion, leading to them being sometimes called 'black'. Which gets some 21st century readers very excited.

However black concubines/slaves were part of life/trading and the Almoravids did use some black troops from the south. The exact status of these is unclear, either slaves or troops/mercenaries provided by rulers in the 'Sudan'

johnincornwall said:

No, they are Sanhaya or Lamtuna berbers. Some berbers have very dark complexion, leading to them being sometimes called 'black'. Which gets some 21st century readers very excited.

However black concubines/slaves were part of life/trading and the Almoravids did use some black troops from the south. The exact status of these is unclear, either slaves or troops/mercenaries provided by rulers in the 'Sudan'

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As far as I know the children born to concubines were generally considered legitimate offspring of their fathers and it changed a bit the complexion EDIT: and allegedly hair colour of Osmanoglu dynasty for example Hurrem Sultan, the mother of Selim the Blond was originally an white slave from Ruthenia, captured by the Crimean Tatar slave raiders and sold on an Ottoman market. Probably Almoravid rulers produced in similar fashion mixed half Sudan offspring of prominence?

At Each Kilometer said:

As far as I know the children born to concubines were generally considered legitimate offspring of their fathers and it changed a bit the complexion EDIT: and allegedly hair colour of Osmanoglu dynasty for example Hurrem Sultan, the mother of Selim the Blond was originally an white slave from Ruthenia, captured by the Crimean Tatar slave raiders and sold on an Ottoman market. Probably Almoravid rulers produced in similar fashion mixed half Sudan offspring of prominence?

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The mixed offspring thing is found in Almoravid, Almohad and Spanish Omeya context. And it normally attracts comment, by writers. So must be 'notable'

Gaslightinghatestruth090 said:

There are black Berbers like Black zenaga (which means sanhaja) and Black taureg. It seems you conflated the pre-colonial term sudani with the colonial term for black. You are not mahgrebi johnincornwall so it makes no sense as you a westerner to adopt mahgrebi terms when westerners of both america and birttain already have their own.View attachment 83737
Ironically, Ibn Kalikhan makes it clear that when looking at a battle field from a distance, the sanhaja soldiers with lamta shields look like the sudan directly.

This sanhaja man (you can tell by his clothes) of southern maurtiania is black. You are not mahgrebi so you using mahgrebi term of sudani as a stand-in for the western (you are a westerner) term black is really strange.

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There are more reports of white concubines, particularly in the city of audoghust, the original capital of the Lamtuna Confederation. This confederation was brief and was preceded by the Za dynasty of Gao and suceeded by the Ghana empire. Zafun would rule over the sanhaja veiled ones during the almoravid period.

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Strange, you just never mentioned intermarriage. Are you implying marriage with sub saharans could only be through slavery? Why would you make such a charged resonse about an entire people group. People in Mauritania that I know personally are half Zenaga and half Soninke by regular marriage in the slave holding country of Mauritania.

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Don't tell me what I can say. I can read.

If you've come here with the idea of being combative, I suggest you go back wherever you came from, it's not that kind of forum