yes, mainly the took refugium in the northern reigns. If you look at the names of the nobles from that time it becomes very clear, that they melt with the spanish-roman population. See eg. counts of aragon like Galindo, a noble Andregota galindez, count sunifred of Barcelona, fernan Gonzalez of castilia, Rodrigo de Vivar, the Alfonsos..........
Joined Jan 2011
1,127 Posts | 46+
FRANCE
After the fall of the Roman Empire, the Wisigoths appear as the first people to create the idea of a unified nation: rex, gens and patria. This first attempt to create a European nation has been obliterated by the Moorish conquest and the Charlemagne’s conquests. However, it’s the “nation” founded by the Wisigoths which then tried to restore (with the Reconquista) the Spanish Kingdom cornered in Oviedo. Pelagius of Asturias was a descendant of a Visigoth, and Alfonso II reestablished the Visigoth customs that was formerly present in the Toledo Kingdom.
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After migrating and occupying parts of Roman Gaul they established themselves as a kingdom in the Iberian Peninsula in a similar administrative fashion as the Ostrogoths in Italy. However the legal distinction between Goths and Romani was abolished latter as attested by the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_code"]Visigothic Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] . After the invasion of the Moors thay were cornered in the north in the Kingdom of Asturias where Pelagius was able to make a stand. They fought against and along with the Moors for several centuries in what was called the Reconquista (reconquest) but was reallly for most of the time a belligerente coexistence of mutual raids and attacks to each others territories until finally the fragmentation of the Al-Andalus empire after the death of Almansor gave the Christians the upperhand. The kingdom of Asturias eventually gave rise to the Kingdoms of Leon, Castile, Galicia and Portugal. The first eventually became united along with Aragon of Frankish origin, in what is now modern Spain while Portugal remained an independent kingdom. That's in general terms what happened.
The ethnic group is diluted in the populations of these two countries in which proportion I do not know.
Joined Sep 2012
2,738 Posts | 2+
Dalmatia Interior
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USA
Well, the interesting thing about the Visigoths is not that they ever made a cultural impact on the peninnsula(the polities arising out of the north-west and common Spanish last names happen to be amongst the only things left behind), but that the peninnsula made a cultural impression on them.
On the main note, the Visigothic caste was mainly Arabized; upwards of 50% or more of the Nobility, with the remianing 40% erecting polities in the north-west, or fleeing to the Basque lands(in turn erecting Navarre) or Frankish southern Gaul/Burgundy.
The native Roman Aristocrats were also almost entirely Arabized as well, and in a more rapid manner than those Aristocrats across the Mediterranean had been, in Syria.
On the main note, the Visigothic caste was mainly Arabized; upwards of 50% or more of the Nobility, with the remianing 40% erecting polities in the north-west, or fleeing to the Basque lands(in turn erecting Navarre) or Frankish southern Gaul/Burgundy.
The native Roman Aristocrats were also almost entirely Arabized as well, and in a more rapid manner than those Aristocrats across the Mediterranean had been, in Syria.
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Arche Seleukeia
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Montréal
Tough luck for you pop-genealogists. Barbarians who settled in the Empire represented less than 5% of the roman population. Once they replaced the roman estate elite, they crafted themselves nice genealogy to assert their political legitimacy. If you were presented with a roman elite and a visigoth elite, you wouldn't be able to know which is which because most of the barbarians were already roman by the time they made their way into imperial territories.
The rest is a matter of time which changes the surroundings by which visigoths experience the world. That means that visigoths are a political construct, and not a wide-spread ethnicity that transcends time.
The rest is a matter of time which changes the surroundings by which visigoths experience the world. That means that visigoths are a political construct, and not a wide-spread ethnicity that transcends time.
Joined Jan 2011
1,127 Posts | 46+
FRANCE
At least they differed by their religion (arianism) as they only converted in 589, so 2 centuries after their entry in the Roman Empire.
As fashionable as it is nowadays among historians to consider that the barbarians histories are political constructs, it's a fact that they have ruled Spain for nearly 3 centuries, affirmed their identity and replaced the Roman Empire broad vision by a national Spanish vision.
At times amazingly tolerant and flourishing, at others horrifically tyrannical and plagued with civil wars. From the mid-point to right before Granada it wasn't very good, but Granada itself was actually a tolerant regime and was a safe haven for Jews and Christians alike.
Joined Dec 2012
449 Posts | 0+
USA
This observation you made actually has nothing to do with Nationalism- it's much too early in time for that. But what the Visigoths did bring to the table, along with the Lombards, Franks, and Vandals, was a more provincial outlook, in their eyes- and more relegated to a smaller administrative area.
Also, I disagree with your statement regarding the babrbarians; I think that what they were was purely a military-political construct, and functioned technnically as autonomous polities operating within and through the Roman Empire. They brought with them no great cultural change to Hispania. The Visigoths themselves were purely a Military Elite; and one that functioned mostly off of their Estates, with less time spent in the Cities, where they left the local Aristocrats(bishops, e.i the late antique urban elite) rule and operate their ruined taxation/fiscal apparatus.
Joined Apr 2010
16,754 Posts | 20+
Slovakia
He was speaking about ethnicity, not modern political nationalism. And in this I agree with him, Visigoths stand at the beginning of forming of Spanish nation. They were ones who forged separate Spanish identity, separate from Roman one.
Joined Jan 2011
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FRANCE
The word "natio" had certainly not the same meaning at that time. But when I used the words "European nation" it's with the nowadays meaning. In fact I was very convinced 2 years ago when I read the book "From Goths to the Gothic Nation" (a very documented book - 700 pages - written by S. Teillet) by the autor's ideas. The author analyses the main contemporary authors (Cassiodore, Isidore of Seville, Jordanes,...) from the Vth to the VIIIth century, and shows how this nation idea appears step by step in their texts, and how it was the first European country in which it appeared.
Joined Sep 2012
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Dalmatia Interior
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Lets add some flavor to the topic:
Euric(466 - 484) first ruler of Visigothic Spain
Unlike his predecessor Teodoric II, Euric was declared anti - roman. He was not fluent in latin, and mostly used translators for negotiations with imperial envoys. He was also convinced and devoted arian, full of gothic pride and awareness of glory of his ancestors. With politic full of wisdom and carefulness he fought sucesfully Bretones(469), occupied Aquitania Prima and conquered temporarily Arles, Avignon and Valance(474/5).
From legal point of view, Euric was first independent ruler of Visigothic kingdom, because only to him emperor Iulius Nepos(475) confirmed full souvereignity. During his rule, kingdom reached peak of territorial power; from Loara on north to Rhone on the East, provence and almost entire Spain. In any case, by confirmation of Iulius Nepos, Euric legalized his conquests and state.
Sidonius Apolinar is resignated and somehow insulted by these conquests. As a declared Roman he writes:
There are rumors that Goths came to our lands. We, unlucky Alvernians are always on the roads of such invasions. That, what especially motivates our enemies is the fact that we are the bareer with Christs's help, to their ambitions to establish their borders to Ocean. Loara and Rhone...But we do not expect that our resistance, so brave and risky will still be supported by our walls on fire and already demolished, or our rotten palisades or already weak chests of our guards...
Strength of Euric's kingdom could be seen by even most convinced romanophiles. the core of that state, beside extremely developed court and competent ruler was also Aquitaine and Pamplona, areas very rich with fertile land. Even Salvian had to admit this:
Everyone knows that Aquitaine and Pamplona are the hearts of the whole Gallia, that land there is magically fertile and full of pleasure, magics and joys. Everything is full of wineyards, decorated with pastures, cultivated in fertile fields, overshadow by small forests, rich with water and covered by waving crops and wheat, so it seems like owners are not taking their parcelles apart, but all is a picture of Heaven.
The future of Visighotic kingdom will after all not be in this fertile region of Gallia. Klodoveg's Franks and death of Euric's son Allaric II( 484 - 507) in battle of Vouille will force Visigoths to move the center of their kingdom in Spain.
Battle of Vouillee (507)
Klodoveg and his Franks were proclaimed defenders of catholicism Supported maybe even by eastern emperor Anastasius I(491 - 518) Klodoveg assembled his armies and marched into Visighotic lands, and at the north of their kingdom, somehwere around unknown city of Vocladum, gained great victory.
The defeat of Visighots was catastrophic. among corps left on the battlefield: hills of corps according to Venancius Fortunatus, there was also a corp of king, Alaric II. The whole Aquitaine between Loara and Garona was easily subjugated to new masters - Franks. Only Septimania was left to Visighots and earlier conquered Spain, and there, Visighots will establish new state.
After Franks took power in Gallia, Visigoths were forced to move to Spain. In waves, this colonization lasted from 507 - 535, and at the time was very violent. All arian churches on territories of Frankish kingdom were closed, and after 534, according to Zaragoza Chronicles, all Visigoths moved to Spain or area under their control around Narbona. For vast Spain along with Narbonian area, Visigoths were still too small people, who made only 2,5 to 3% of entire population. Their settlements were most densely populated in northwest between Tajo on south and Pamplona on north. From the west, these settlements were established from Catajuda to Salamanca. Rest of the peninsula knew only for their guards and military stations in bigger towns.
On "their" areas, Visighots forcefully took 2/3 of land from hispano - roman nobles, and shared it between themselves as sortes goticae. The land left to original owners was called tertiae Romanorum. These words are still alive today in some toponims like Sort, Consortes, Tercia, Terciar, Godos, Campos Goticos or Burgos.
Although they saved ethnic composition, Visigoths were rapidly assimilated in cultural sense by native, romanized population. They lost all their traditions and customs, and their life in Spain hasn't lasted even for 300 years. Later, they moved to Galizia, where they were inhabited in compact groups and entirely romanized.
Euric(466 - 484) first ruler of Visigothic Spain
Unlike his predecessor Teodoric II, Euric was declared anti - roman. He was not fluent in latin, and mostly used translators for negotiations with imperial envoys. He was also convinced and devoted arian, full of gothic pride and awareness of glory of his ancestors. With politic full of wisdom and carefulness he fought sucesfully Bretones(469), occupied Aquitania Prima and conquered temporarily Arles, Avignon and Valance(474/5).
From legal point of view, Euric was first independent ruler of Visigothic kingdom, because only to him emperor Iulius Nepos(475) confirmed full souvereignity. During his rule, kingdom reached peak of territorial power; from Loara on north to Rhone on the East, provence and almost entire Spain. In any case, by confirmation of Iulius Nepos, Euric legalized his conquests and state.
Sidonius Apolinar is resignated and somehow insulted by these conquests. As a declared Roman he writes:
There are rumors that Goths came to our lands. We, unlucky Alvernians are always on the roads of such invasions. That, what especially motivates our enemies is the fact that we are the bareer with Christs's help, to their ambitions to establish their borders to Ocean. Loara and Rhone...But we do not expect that our resistance, so brave and risky will still be supported by our walls on fire and already demolished, or our rotten palisades or already weak chests of our guards...
Strength of Euric's kingdom could be seen by even most convinced romanophiles. the core of that state, beside extremely developed court and competent ruler was also Aquitaine and Pamplona, areas very rich with fertile land. Even Salvian had to admit this:
Everyone knows that Aquitaine and Pamplona are the hearts of the whole Gallia, that land there is magically fertile and full of pleasure, magics and joys. Everything is full of wineyards, decorated with pastures, cultivated in fertile fields, overshadow by small forests, rich with water and covered by waving crops and wheat, so it seems like owners are not taking their parcelles apart, but all is a picture of Heaven.
The future of Visighotic kingdom will after all not be in this fertile region of Gallia. Klodoveg's Franks and death of Euric's son Allaric II( 484 - 507) in battle of Vouille will force Visigoths to move the center of their kingdom in Spain.
Battle of Vouillee (507)
Klodoveg and his Franks were proclaimed defenders of catholicism Supported maybe even by eastern emperor Anastasius I(491 - 518) Klodoveg assembled his armies and marched into Visighotic lands, and at the north of their kingdom, somehwere around unknown city of Vocladum, gained great victory.
The defeat of Visighots was catastrophic. among corps left on the battlefield: hills of corps according to Venancius Fortunatus, there was also a corp of king, Alaric II. The whole Aquitaine between Loara and Garona was easily subjugated to new masters - Franks. Only Septimania was left to Visighots and earlier conquered Spain, and there, Visighots will establish new state.
After Franks took power in Gallia, Visigoths were forced to move to Spain. In waves, this colonization lasted from 507 - 535, and at the time was very violent. All arian churches on territories of Frankish kingdom were closed, and after 534, according to Zaragoza Chronicles, all Visigoths moved to Spain or area under their control around Narbona. For vast Spain along with Narbonian area, Visigoths were still too small people, who made only 2,5 to 3% of entire population. Their settlements were most densely populated in northwest between Tajo on south and Pamplona on north. From the west, these settlements were established from Catajuda to Salamanca. Rest of the peninsula knew only for their guards and military stations in bigger towns.
On "their" areas, Visighots forcefully took 2/3 of land from hispano - roman nobles, and shared it between themselves as sortes goticae. The land left to original owners was called tertiae Romanorum. These words are still alive today in some toponims like Sort, Consortes, Tercia, Terciar, Godos, Campos Goticos or Burgos.
Although they saved ethnic composition, Visigoths were rapidly assimilated in cultural sense by native, romanized population. They lost all their traditions and customs, and their life in Spain hasn't lasted even for 300 years. Later, they moved to Galizia, where they were inhabited in compact groups and entirely romanized.
Joined Mar 2010
512 Posts | 0+
Montréal
No. I don't think that a proto feudal state had enough time in its hands to come up with what you call a national spanish vision. Though, if you're ready to define what a national spanish vision is, I might just be inclined to believe you.
You could explain what a national vision is (in a 5th-8th century setting), and then explain what makes that national vision ''spanish'', because your last post doesn't carry contemporary information, but teleological comments on how it was the ''first european state''. That doesn't really interests me.
The Visigothic ruling class was to a large extent absorbed into the ruling cclass of the Muslim conquerors.
One of the early rulers of Muslim Spain was three-quarters Visigoth in descent. His mother was a pure Visigoth, and his father was half-Visigoth, having also had a Visigothic mother.
Because of his Germanic descent that ruler had red hair, which he had to dye black so as to look like a true Arab.
One of the early rulers of Muslim Spain was three-quarters Visigoth in descent. His mother was a pure Visigoth, and his father was half-Visigoth, having also had a Visigothic mother.
Because of his Germanic descent that ruler had red hair, which he had to dye black so as to look like a true Arab.
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