What would be the effects of a Songhai victory at Tondibi on African/World history ?

Joined Jul 2021
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The Songhai empire only lasted for about 127 years while both the Mali and Ghana empire lasted well over 4 centuries. What if the battle of Tondibi became a "point of divergence" where instead of what happened historically, Askia Ishaq II, wins the battle and the Songhai empire survives ? What changes would this make on history as we know it ?
 
Joined May 2016
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Portugal
I think that "What would be..." is speculative history, it should be in the proper subforum and not in a History subforum:

 
Joined Jul 2021
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The Other Side
I think that "What would be..." is speculative history, it should be in the proper subforum and not in a History subforum:

Oh! my bad. I was unaware. How do i move it ?
 
Joined Jul 2019
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Ghana
The Songhai empire only lasted for about 127 years while both the Mali and Ghana empire lasted well over 4 centuries. What if the battle of Tondibi became a "point of divergence" where instead of what happened historically, Askia Ishaq II, wins the battle and the Songhai empire survives ? What changes would this make on history as we know it ?
This is what Songhai would look like today:
Futuristic african city africa by jeryce dianingana Afro futurism.jpg

:lol: Sorry, I'm just joking :lol: I really have no idea to be honest... 😅
 
Joined Jul 2021
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The Other Side
This is what Songhai would look like today:
View attachment 49132

:lol: Sorry, I'm just joking :lol: I really have no idea to be honest... 😅

One thing i think would have happend is that they would have been one of the earliest adopters of the gun in West Africa. I can't remember where i read this, nor can i vouch for how accurate it is, but i read somewhere once that Judar Pasha's men found a lone cannon in Gao. Kanem-Bornu to the east also incorporated guns into their army around this time. So i think that, by some miracle, upon winning the battle of Tondibi Ishaq II, would immediately set out to get guns into the hands of his soldiers.

Another thing I think could happen is, with the arrival of the portugese and other Europeans on the coasts, Songhai would attempt to expand south and further west. They would attempt to circumvent having to use Morrocans and other North Africans as middle men to Europe and try to just trade directly. Can't say for certain how successful they would be, but a still strong Songhai with guns should be able to basically run over everything in their path.

Also this definitely changes the Transatlantic slave trade by a huge amount. Im not sure in what way but it definitely does.
 
Joined Sep 2012
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Bulgaria
Askia' army lost the battle because the enemy had the advantage of firearms. How exactly they would have been able to hold off the Moroccans without arquebuses even if miraculously they somehow managed to repel the invaders? They do need experienced arquebusiers terribly in order to survive in this speculative scenario / with guns they would have been masters of this part of the continent.
 
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Askia' army lost the battle because the enemy had the advantage of firearms. How exactly they would have been able to hold off the Moroccans without arquebuses even if miraculously they somehow managed to repel the invaders? They do need experienced arquebusiers terribly in order to survive in this speculative scenario / with guns they would have been masters of this part of the continent.
Thats the entire point of the thread. Im not well versed on mideaval/early modern warfare, infact i know nothing on it at all, but the whole point of this is trying to imagine how an intact Songhai empire would have changed history, so the P.O.D. ( point of divergence ), how ever plausible or not, has to happen.
 
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As far as I know you can't. The only option is to request it to the mod team.
I've gotten it moved to a more appropriate location
 
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Joined Sep 2012
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The natural ally of Songhai in this speculative scenario are the Ottomans. During the reign of Murad III they had a good relationship with Bornu of Idris Aloma, they sold guns and their expertise of guns in exchange for goods, mostly slaves. Apparently they had a surplus of guns throughout the empire during the end of the XVIth century (at the time of the battle in question), because they had the tendency to trade also guns for spices with the east (India). In fact the Ottoman Empire was one of the biggest firearms & gunpowder manufacturer in Europe, the Middle East and Africa in XVth and XVIth century, the problem is this Muslim empire was too far east from Songhai and they had to get these firearms via Bornu. I dont know how good were relations between these two empires - Bornu ans Songhai - during the reign of Askia?
 
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Joined Jul 2021
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I think you made well, and allow me to say, maybe nit picking, that maybe it would be best to do the same for this thread: What would be the alternate historical Knock-off effects of a sizeable African freeborn migration to the early U.S. be ?

I think that it is important to separate "history" from "alternate (fictional) history".
I don't really see the point in moving that thread. I've lost interest in it and it's dead as dead. I dont want to bring it back up.
 
Joined May 2016
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Portugal
I don't really see the point in moving that thread. I've lost interest in it and it's dead as dead. I dont want to bring it back up.

Ok, it is your decision, but we can't really say that a thread is dead until is closed. We see here daily old threads being raised with 10 years or more. Maybe that one never took off because it was in the wrong place to start?

The point was only to separate the waters, fiction from reality, as I said in the previous post.

Sorry for the derail!
 
Joined Oct 2021
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Lake Chad
Perhaps it would have lasted as a large empire capable of dominating the Middle Niger and a huge stretch of the Niger for some time, but pivoting more towards coastal trade (if Songhai could ensure access through conquests and expansion to the west coast?). Maybe access to firearms and European goods through that direction, while letting Agadez and Hausaland remain as independent territories between Songhai and Bornu, would have led to Bornu and Songhay being the 2 hegemons in the Sahel/savannah zones.
 
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Joined Mar 2012
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Askia' army lost the battle because the enemy had the advantage of firearms. How exactly they would have been able to hold off the Moroccans without arquebuses even if miraculously they somehow managed to repel the invaders? They do need experienced arquebusiers terribly in order to survive in this speculative scenario / with guns they would have been masters of this part of the continent.

It is worth noting that this may be incorrect on four accounts:

1) In the Tariq Al Sudan itself, it states that the Songhai did not lose due to firearms, but because they did not believe the Saadi Sultanate actually intended a full-scale invasion, and the Songhai threw together an army with poor leadership.

2) Whereas it took them awhile to win a major battle agains the Saadi, they did did very well later with guerilla warfare.

3) The Dendi empire, the survival of the Songhai, did win a major battle agains the Saadi under Askia Nuh.

4) The Saadi suffered miserably. In the Tariq, is says that of the 23,000 soldiers sent to Songhai overall, not 500 made it back to Marrakesh.

So they may have done a bit better than we think against those primative firearms. Some of it was just getting caught flat-footed.
 

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