Wily Odysseus' brood

reitia · May 18, 2017

Readers of Homer's Odyssey have been brought up to think that Ulysses/Odysseus was an admirable hero, that he really loved only one woman and that he had only one child. Wrong on all counts! In fact, pre-homeric myths and the Epic Cycle indicate that Odysseus was a complete scoundrel and that he had quite a large brood of children by various "......". This rogue...whose father by the way was probably not Laertes... was never faithful to Penelope, lied smoothly all the time and was often treacherous to his comrades.

I'll send examples of Odysseus' roguery in future posts. For the time being, I'd like to challenge other forum members to discover for themselves some of the variants of Homer's "official" Odysseus myth. It's fascinating research.

David Vagamundo · May 18, 2017

Thanks, Reitia, but those of us knowledgeable about Greek myth already know that Odysseus was a very persuasive scoundrel, as he is portrayed in the Iliad and in other references to him. Look forward to reading more.

Alopeias · May 18, 2017

When reading the Odyssey, I absolutely hated Odysseus. I found few redeeming features about him. From the moment he weeps for Penelope without trying to escape and then happily goes to sleep with Calypso. He is vainglorious and proud, arrogant and egotistical and he is utterly careless and self-centred as a leader of men! Why, for example, does he feel the need to boast after blinding Polyphemus, who he knows to be the son of Poseidon? Why Athene loves him so much, I'll never know.

I could go on but I don't think there's much need. I absolutely detested him. And it becomes clear when reading the Aeneid, which is in a similar style albeit from a much later period, how intolerable Odysseus is in comparison to Aeneas.

reitia · May 18, 2017

David Vagamundo said:
Thanks, Reitia, but those of us knowledgeable about Greek myth already know that Odysseus was a very persuasive scoundrel, as he is portrayed in the Iliad and in other references to him. Look forward to reading more.

Many more folks read the Odyssey than the Iliad, because the former is essentially a colourful, fast-paced novel with a gripping plot, while the Iliad is a dull dry war-chronical: "And then godlike x slew swift-running y..." It's a tiresome litany of useless slaughter, all for the sake of that worthless, faithless woman, Helen. The Iliad does, however, have the advantage of being the older of the two poems, ruder, cruder, incorporing more original Mycenaean bardic material; what is more, there is a persistent theory that the author of the Odyssey was a different poet altogether. As you say, in the Iliad Odysseus appears in a villainous light; but the average casual modern myth-reader usually remembers the whitewashed heroic Odysseus of the Odyssey.

Will write again soon.

Willempie · May 18, 2017

Bah, this is just Trojan and Roman propaganda aimed to smear Odysseus.

reitia · May 22, 2017

Alopeias said:
When reading the Odyssey, I absolutely hated Odysseus. I found few redeeming features about him. From the moment he weeps for Penelope without trying to escape and then happily goes to sleep with Calypso. He is vainglorious and proud, arrogant and egotistical and he is utterly careless and self-centred as a leader of men! Why, for example, does he feel the need to boast after blinding Polyphemus, who he knows to be the son of Poseidon? Why Athene loves him so much, I'll never know.

I could go on but I don't think there's much need. I absolutely detested him. And it becomes clear when reading the Aeneid, which is in a similar style albeit from a much later period, how intolerable Odysseus is in comparison to Aeneas.

Even though the Great Bard who wrote the Odyssey tried hard to whitewash many of Odysseus' defects and crimes, this task was in the long run was impossible because the general public of Homer's time would have been familiar with the older, pre-Homeric myths that indicated in no uncertain terms what an incorrigible rogue Penelope's husband was. Odysseus' name was practically synonymous with liar and scoundrel; indeed, as I mentioned previously, his name itself can be translated as "hateful".

reitia · May 22, 2017

Willempie said:
Bah, this is just Trojan and Roman propaganda aimed to smear Odysseus.

Did the Trojans ever write an anti-Odyssey? I think not; the males of that city, at least, had mostly been slaughtered by the Achaeans during and after the war and a large part of the remaining population was dispersed. As for the Romans: some of them actually tried to rehabilitate Odysseus' "honour" in imperial times.

Tulius · May 22, 2017

reitia said:
Even though the Great Bard who wrote the Odyssey tried hard to whitewash many of Odysseus' defects and crimes, this task was in the long run was impossible because the general public of Homer's time would have been familiar with the older, pre-Homeric myths that indicated in no uncertain terms what an incorrigible rogue Penelope's husband was. Odysseus' name was practically synonymous with liar and scoundrel; indeed, as I mentioned previously, his name itself can be translated as "hateful".

The Odyssey and the Iliad are two quite different books, and even if possibly written by the same author, they show us two different kind of Heroes.

And we can see that in the adjective and descriptions that “Homer” uses, even if we look solely to the Iliad.

Achiles is great, valiant, loved of heaven… the man skilled in the face to face combat…

Odysseus/Ulysses is a “man of great craft”, “the man of twists and turns”, the man of deception and cunning… he is the spy and the man of the night when he goes with Diomedes to scout the Trojans and they ambush Dolon (book 10).

So, you don’t need to point the “roguery” of Ulysses, Homer did that for you, even if in other words. And that “roguery” is amplified in the Odyssey, as we can see for instance with the Cyclop.

Anyway I will gladly see some new evidences that you have to show to us.

Moros · May 22, 2017

Dante placed Odysseus in one of the lowest circles of Hell, because he was seen as a liar and a manipulative planner.

Dan Howard · May 22, 2017

Willempie said:
Bah, this is just Trojan and Roman propaganda aimed to smear Odysseus.

The only real man in the Iliad was Diomedes. The rest were whiny preppy crybabies.

Tulius · May 23, 2017

Moros said:
Dante placed Odysseus in one of the lowest circles of Hell, because he was seen as a liar and a manipulative planner.

Well, at least he recognized the place!

Edit:

There is a curious myth that Olisipo (Lisbon) was founded by him.

David Vagamundo · May 23, 2017

reitia said:
Did the Trojans ever write an anti-Odyssey? I think not; the males of that city, at least, had mostly been slaughtered by the Achaeans during and after the war and a large part of the remaining population was dispersed. As for the Romans: some of them actually tried to rehabilitate Odysseus' "honour" in imperial times.

Reitia--

I thought he meant the Aeneid.

reitia · May 23, 2017

David Vagamundo said:
Reitia--

I thought he meant the Aeneid.

Yes, surely; I was just mentioning that anti-Odysseus slander was not a widespread literary norm in Rome.

Tulius · May 24, 2017

reitia said:
Yes, surely; I was just mentioning that anti-Odysseus slander was not a widespread literary norm in Rome.

Not sure if I understood what you mean.

Anyway, about Odysseus in the 20th century there were some researchers, maybe a bit in the line of Heinrich Schliemann, that tried, identified (!!!), and drawn maps, with Odysseus’ voyages and of the places that he visited in the Odyssey.

Does this line of thinking still progresses? Any recent ideas, in a serious Academic tone?

reitia · May 24, 2017

Tulius said:
Not sure if I understood what you mean.

Anyway, about Odysseus in the 20th century there were some researchers, maybe a bit in the line of Heinrich Schliemann, that tried, identified (!!!), and drawn maps, with Odysseus’ voyages and of the places that he visited in the Odyssey.

Does this line of thinking still progresses? Any recent ideas, in a serious Academic tone?

What I meant is that most Roman authors did not follow Virgil's lead in painting such a negative picture of Odysseus. In the Aeneid, Odysseus is called "cruel, deceitful Ulixes".

Although the wanderings of the Ithacan Odysseus after the Trojan War appear to have no basis in history (these are probably vague folk-memories of sea-voyages made by a Cretan adventure named Ulixes), strangely many scholars of all subsequent eras have firmly believed that the itinerary described in the Odyssey corresponds to fact. In recent years, several researchers have published works in which they endeavour to identify all of the places where Odysseus travelled following the war.

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Wily Odysseus' brood

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