An ancient Somalian form of writing?

[Jari]

LOL, You accuse me of Cherry Picking, but provide 3 images of the lightest Egyptian art work you can find,(2 of which still fall in line with Natural African Nilotic Features) and I provided at least 3 different Tombs with large groups of people and several statues. The pot calling the Kettle black, I mean how do you people even try.

I never denied there were pockets of Asiatic types in Ancient Egypt, esp. the Delta and never denied that immigration and Eurasians did not intermarry and achieve high positions as far back as the O.K. but the facts are clear, Egypt was an African Empire with a mainly Dark Skinned population.

Be advised I have more art work, I only stopped as to not bog down this thread.

Jari,
Nice attempt at cherry picking some images which you think might suit your agenda.

How about we look into some well known funerary statues of the Old Kingdom. There was a short period of time in the OK when Egyptian art was actually somewhat realistic and not governed by the rigid and formalistic conventions.

 

[Enkidu]

I never denied there were pockets of Asiatic types in Ancient Egypt, esp. the Delta and never denied that immigration and Eurasians did not intermarry and achieve high positions as far back as the O.K. but the facts are clear, Egypt was an African Empire with a mainly Dark Skinned population.

If this was your whole position there wouldn't be anything to disagree about. However being dark skinned does not make Egyptians "Nilotic".

Be advised I have more art work, I only stopped as to not bog down this thread.

Be advised that most Egyptian art is worthless for the purpose of proving their "race", since it never strived for realism (except for a short time in the O.K. and the Amarna period) and all the strict conventions they had about how people could be depicted.

I feel like this isn't the right thread for this discussion, so this is my last post on the topic. Please start a thread about Egyptian art if you'd like to continue.

 

[cachibatches]

Cachi! Nice Post!! Did you read, what, i posted before I agreed with Cello and jari!

To be honest with you! they have lost this debate, before it started


All the historians and the people WHO saw, the ancient egyptians! disagree with cello and jari!

I agreed with them, so the debate, can continue! because, after I posted, all the historians they didn't reply..


On Topic: I agree with you on the back migration research.. i have read that also before!

but what i don't understand is, are you saying, that the people of the levant were ruling with the AE's or they came later, after the empire were Falling??

The somalis, and 20% of the ethiopians! were also in the same back migration like the Ancient egyptians or now days egyptians?? they are also closer to Eurasians then Berbers( Marocco, Algeria, and tunisa) in there Y-haplogroup.. just like the Egyptians and some of the Libyans!

E-V12, the same mtdna back migration.. they were with them, all the way Down!

ALL that I am saying is that they were mixed and always were. If you guys as Africans feel a relation to them, I think that is totally legitimate. But Eurasians also have had a relation to them since the stone ages.

This just sticks in guys like Jari and Asante, and I am not sure why.

I just can't stand that they try to pass off this myth that the Egyptians used to be a different people. Every genetics study says otherwise, and Keita, despite how he frames it, agrees.

It is rubbish. Let the Egyptian people have their ancestors. If you feel related to them, fine. but they are who they are and I can re-post the genetic studies ten thousand time if I have to. Jari can call it spamming all he wants, and it is still the truth and he still has no DNA study that says otherwise.

I did read through your studies, and as I think I stated, their model proves what I am saying. A small minority of these studies still say that the Egyptians are primarily African today (as opposed to heavily mixed, probably because of fallacy of small numbers). These absolutely condemn "Black Egypt"- if they are still primarily African, then were are the waves of Arabs, Greeks, etc that supposedly altered them? They had already developed phenotypically to be more like Eurasians, and there is absolutely no possibility of them having once been "blacker," or a different people.

What Jari would need is a model that agrees that they are mixed today, and dates the mix to historical times- NO SUCH MODEL EXISTS.

 

[light23]

ALL that I am saying is that they were mixed and always were. If you guys as Africans feel a relation to them, I think that is totally legitimate. But Eurasians also have had a relation to them since the stone ages.

This just sticks in guys like Jari and Asante, and I am not sure why.

I just can't stand that they try to pass off this myth that the Egyptians used to be a different people. Every genetics study says otherwise, and Keita, despite how he frames it, agrees.

It is rubbish. Let the Egyptian people have their ancestors. If you feel related to them, fine. but they are who they are and I can re-post the genetic studies ten thousand time if I have to. Jari can call it spamming all he wants, and it is still the truth and he still has no DNA study that says otherwise.

I did read through your studies, and as I think I stated, their model proves what I am saying. A small minority of these studies still say that the Egyptians are primarily African today (as opposed to heavily mixed, probably because of fallacy of small numbers). These absolutely condemn "Black Egypt"- if they are still primarily African, then were are the waves of Arabs, Greeks, etc that supposedly altered them? They had already developed phenotypically to be more like Eurasians, and there is absolutely no possibility of them having once been "blacker," or a different people.

What Jari would need is a model that agrees that they are mixed today, and dates the mix to historical times- NO SUCH MODEL EXISTS.

The egyptians may have the Pyrmids and the land today, but the somalis have the culture and traditions + lanaguage + DNA..

And remember 32% of now days egyptians are from ancient egypt! we are not hijacking them.. we are the lost people of that area..

Dr. zahi hawass accepted somalis, because they were his worst nightmare, he just could not throw them away.. because they are the true lost peoples of ancient egypt.. WHO lived in the upper egypt, Places like thebes..

I am not trying to hijack the egyptians history, the reality is we are part of the Thuya gene.. We blieve Osiris and Isis were our parents! and this were told from father to son.. and thanks to dna is proven.. we were not liars.

thats why when you see Guys like dr. Zahi hawass accepting it!

And i can show you, many Things that the ancient egyptians use to do, we still do it today..

somali legends say we were not natives to that land.. that we came from North..

like the corridor between North to the horn of africa, were the beja people live today, are great proof for this also.. that we left egypt! South to the nile

 

[cachibatches]

The egyptians may have the Pyrmids and the land today, but the somalis have the culture and traditions + lanaguage + DNA..

And remember 32% of now days egyptians are from ancient egypt! we are not hijacking them.. we are the lost people of that area..

Dr. zahi hawass accepted somalis, because they were his worst nightmare, he just could not throw them away.. because they are the true lost peoples of ancient egypt.. WHO lived in the upper egypt, Places like thebes..

I am not trying to hijack the egyptians history, the reality is we are part of the Thuya gene.. We blieve Osiris and Isis were our parents! and this were told from father to son.. and thanks to dna is proven.. we were not liars.

thats why when you see Guys like dr. Zahi hawass accepting it!

And i can show you, many Things that the ancient egyptians use to do, we still do it today..

somali legends say we were not natives to that land.. that we came from North..

like the corridor between North to the horn of africa, were the beja people live today, are great proof for this also.. that we left egypt! South to the nile

I see what you are saying.

Look, one way or the other, I admire Somalians for their history in Somalia, which is why I was researching them and started this thread. So I am not going to continue on with this much longer since I did not want this to be another Egyptian thread, but I hope you consider mea friend.

Peace.

 

[Jari]

If this was your whole position there wouldn't be anything to disagree about.

Who said Im disagreeing with anyone? Do you even know why I posted what I did or did you just but into a conversation trying to disprove what you think is an Afrocentric.

However being dark skinned does not make Egyptians "Nilotic".

Neither does being light skinned with non ....... features make on a Eurasian or Mixed Race.

Be advised that most Egyptian art is worthless for the purpose of proving their "race", since it never strived for realism (except for a short time in the O.K. and the Amarna period) and all the strict conventions they had about how people could be depicted.

Advise yourself, I mean did you NOT JUST POST 3 statues trying to prove the Egyptians were cacaziod Eurasians. and the Armarna period was New Kingdom not old Kingdom btw. and I can show you Images from that period as well.

As to your assertions, what the images show is how the Egyptians saw themselves. Their art is reflective of their populations values and self image no different that Ancient Greek, Chinese, Roman etc. art all of which is stylized.

I feel like this isn't the right thread for this discussion, so this is my last post on the topic. Please start a thread about Egyptian art if you'd like to continue.

Actually I was thinking of doing just that as it sadly and wrongly appears that many people think dark skin was a rarity in A. Egyptian art.

 

[light23]

I see what you are saying.

Look, one way or the other, I admire Somalians for their history in Somalia, which is why I was researching them and started this thread. So I am not going to continue on with this much longer since I did not want this to be another Egyptian thread, but I hope you consider mea friend.

Peace.

Thank you.. we will just leave it there..

 

[Kilwa Sultanate]

ALL that I am saying is that they were mixed and always were. If you guys as Africans feel a relation to them, I think that is totally legitimate. But Eurasians also have had a relation to them since the stone ages.

Um..Sir do you have some sort of proof? When I always get into debates with people claiming the Ancient Egyptians were mixed, they can never show me Ancient Egyptian remains from the early dynastic period clustering with non Africans.

This just sticks in guys like Jari and Asante, and I am not sure why.

I just can't stand that they try to pass off this myth that the Egyptians used to be a different people. Every genetics study says otherwise, and Keita, despite how he frames it, agrees.

Again where is the proof that they were different? No actually Keita doesn't disagree...He actually places Ancient Egyptian culture as what you call African.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpfkp4ZWm4U]Shomarka Keita Bio Cultural Origins of Kemet(Egypt) - YouTube[/ame]

Can you please show me where Keita disagree's with an African origins for Ancient Egypt?

It is rubbish. Let the Egyptian people have their ancestors.

Nobodies taking it away from them and I agree. All we are saying is that Ancient Egypt was of African origin and created by Africans that were similair to their African neighbors(Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somalis, Nubians, Nile Saharan speakers).

What both Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics fail to see is that the Egyptian population especially Upper Egypt(southern Egypt) are still very African and still cluster with other Northeast Africans. Also Ancient Egyptian culture still lives on in Upper Egypt.

The Y-DNA of modern Egyptians is still very African.

If you feel related to them, fine. but they are who they are and I can re-post the genetic studies ten thousand time if I have to. Jari can call it spamming all he wants, and it is still the truth and he still has no DNA study that says otherwise.

I did read through your studies, and as I think I stated, their model proves what I am saying. A small minority of these studies still say that the Egyptians are primarily African today (as opposed to heavily mixed, probably because of fallacy of small numbers). These absolutely condemn "Black Egypt"- if they are still primarily African, then were are the waves of Arabs, Greeks, etc that supposedly altered them? They had already developed phenotypically to be more like Eurasians, and there is absolutely no possibility of them having once been "blacker," or a different people.

What Jari would need is a model that agrees that they are mixed today, and dates the mix to historical times- NO SUCH MODEL EXISTS.

Of course modern day Egyptians are still very African today. Of course...Like I said before that's where both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics fail at, but...What Egyptians are we talking about? Modern Upper Egyptians or Lower Egyptians???


Also 'Black Egypt' is both idiotic and flawed. The Ancient Egyptians didn't use terms such as 'black'. Saying the Ancient Egyptians were 'black' is politically incorrect just like it is for white. Also Africans are too diverse for the term black...BUT its been proven that the Ancient Egyptians are an indignous African group and related to neighboring Africans around them(Somalis, Ethiopians, Nubians, Nile Saharans). Now would I label the Ancient Egyptians as black if they were to appear today? Maybe...Again maybe.

Now if you have evidence that state early dynastic Egyptians were anything but African, then please post it. Because all studies I read said the Ancient Egyptians of the early dynastic period were majority African.

 

[Enkidu]

One more response...

Who said Im disagreeing with anyone? Do you even know why I posted what I did or did you just but into a conversation trying to disprove what you think is an Afrocentric.

Sorry that I butted in, didn't know this was a private conversation. All I do know is that you are a proficient poster on an Afrocentric website. If Afrocentric agenda wasn't the reason why you posted the pictures, then I'd appreciate if you'd clarify why you posted them. I can't read your mind

Advise yourself, I mean did you NOT JUST POST 3 statues trying to prove the Egyptians were cacaziod Eurasians.

No. That was absolutely not the reason why I posted the pictures. I do not claim or try to prove any such thing.

Actually I was thinking of doing just that as it sadly and wrongly appears that many people think dark skin was a rarity in A. Egyptian art.

Please do. I for one don't think that dark skin was a rarity in AE. In art or otherwise. By dark skin I mean the skin color of majority of modern day Egyptians.

What I DO disagree with is your position - please correct me if I'm wrong - that majority of Ancient Egyptians (at least in Old Kingdom) were Nilotic Africans.

 

[cachibatches]

Um..Sir do you have some sort of proof? When I always get into debates with people claiming the Ancient Egyptians were mixed, they can never show me Ancient Egyptian remains from the early dynastic period clustering with non Africans.



Again where is the proof that they were different? No actually Keita doesn't disagree...He actually places Ancient Egyptian culture as what you call African.
Shomarka Keita Bio Cultural Origins of Kemet(Egypt) - YouTube

Can you please show me where Keita disagree's with an African origins for Ancient Egypt?



Nobodies taking it away from them and I agree. All we are saying is that Ancient Egypt was of African origin and created by Africans that were similair to their African neighbors(Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somalis, Nubians, Nile Saharan speakers).

What both Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics fail to see is that the Egyptian population especially Upper Egypt(southern Egypt) are still very African and still cluster with other Northeast Africans. Also Ancient Egyptian culture still lives on in Upper Egypt.

The Y-DNA of modern Egyptians is still very African.

Of course modern day Egyptians are still very African today. Of course...Like I said before that's where both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics fail at, but...What Egyptians are we talking about? Modern Upper Egyptians or Lower Egyptians???


Also 'Black Egypt' is both idiotic and flawed. The Ancient Egyptians didn't use terms such as 'black'. Saying the Ancient Egyptians were 'black' is politically incorrect just like it is for white. Also Africans are too diverse for the term black...BUT its been proven that the Ancient Egyptians are an indignous African group and related to neighboring Africans around them(Somalis, Ethiopians, Nubians, Nile Saharans). Now would I label the Ancient Egyptians as black if they were to appear today? Maybe...Again maybe.

Now if you have evidence that state early dynastic Egyptians were anything but African, then please post it. Because all studies I read said the Ancient Egyptians of the early dynastic period were majority African.

Can you please read through the thread. I have posted the conclusions of dozens of genetic studies.

Please stop posting Keita. for one thing, he agrees that the diversity we see in Egypt today has always been there, and for another, he is not a geneticist and employs morphology, which is considered fairly disreputable these days.

Once again, Lucotte is the MOST damning study to "black Egypt." If his percentages are correct (and I frankly don't believe them, as they represent the minority opinion) then there simply were no waves of Greeks, Arabs, etc. that altered the gene pool. The Egyptians we see today are the same as they have always been, and were definitely phenotypically very different from black Africans.

No black Egypt.

Once again, what you would need is a model that shows a mixed race, with the Eurasian dated to very recent times. No such model exists.

Please read though the thread. This has all already been discussed.

 

[Kilwa Sultanate]

Can you please read through the thread. I have posted the conclusions of dozens of genetic studies.

I did, but not all of it. I'm also putting in my opinion like everyone else.

Please stop posting Keita. for one thing, he agrees that the diversity we see in Egypt today has always been there, and for another, he is not a geneticist and employs morphology, which is considered fairly disreputable these days.

1. No, Keita is clearly educated on this topic and have proven the cultural similarities between Ancient Egypt and other African cultures. What does him not being a geneticist have to prove? Even if morphology isn't as favorable as geneticist, morphology still gives us a hint on what group the population may belong to. And Keita so far proved this.
2. Can you be specific, if you are also including the people from Cairo? If so, I doubt Keita included them in Ancient Egypt's past diversity. Cairo was a hotspot for foriegn settlement and back then the area of Cairo was not even heavily populated. So can you be specific or give me a quote?

Once again, Lucotte is the MOST damning study to "black Egypt." If his percentages are correct (and I frankly don't believe them, as they represent the minority opinion) then there simply were no waves of Greeks, Arabs, etc. that altered the gene pool. The Egyptians we see today are the same as they have always been, and were definitely phenotypically very different from black Africans.

No black Egypt.

Again 'black' itself is a flawed term. The Ancient Egyptians didn't call themselves black and some Africans don't even call themselves black. Black is a western coined term. Heck Fulani's are called white by other Africans yet their DNA is mainly African at 85% I believe.

Also if you are trying to state that the Egyptians genes did not change at all with those waves of migration(especially in Lower Egypt) then you are sadly mistaken. Again like I said BEFORE Lower Egypt was a hotspot of foreign migrations and almost everyone in Cairo has foreign DNA. So again be specific...Upper Egypt or Lower Egypt. I can agree with Lower Egypt because foreign migration barely touched that part of Egypt.

And I hope you know what you call black African, the Africans have the highest diversity

Also these upper Egyptians, people would say look black....

^^^Note these are not noy Nubians, even if they were its said after modern Egyptians(upper), Nubians cluster closest to the Ancient Egyptians.

Once again, what you would need is a model that shows a mixed race, with the Eurasian dated to very recent times. No such model exists.

Because no Eurasians being in early dynastic Egypt or even prehistoric Egypt exist...

Please read though the thread. This has all already been discussed.

I already read through part of it and now I'm putting in my opinion like everyone else.

 

[cachibatches]

I did, but not all of it. I'm also putting in my opinion like everyone else.


1. No, Keita is clearly educated on this topic and have proven the cultural similarities between Ancient Egypt and other African cultures. What does him not being a geneticist have to prove? Even if morphology isn't as favorable as geneticist, morphology still gives us a hint on what group the population may belong to. And Keita so far proved this.
2. Can you be specific, if you are also including the people from Cairo? If so, I doubt Keita included them in Ancient Egypt's past diversity. Cairo was a hotspot for foriegn settlement and back then the area of Cairo was not even heavily populated. So can you be specific or give me a quote?


Again 'black' itself is a flawed term. The Ancient Egyptians didn't call themselves black and some Africans don't even call themselves black. Black is a western coined term. Heck Fulani's are called white by other Africans yet their DNA is mainly African at 85% I believe.

Also if you are trying to state that the Egyptians genes did not change at all with those waves of migration(especially in Lower Egypt) then you are sadly mistaken. Again like I said BEFORE Lower Egypt was a hotspot of foreign migrations and almost everyone in Cairo has foreign DNA. So again be specific...Upper Egypt or Lower Egypt. I can agree with Lower Egypt because foreign migration barely touched that part of Egypt.

And I hope you know what you call black African, the Africans have the highest diversity

Also these upper Egyptians, people would say look black....

^^^Note these are not noy Nubians, even if they were its said after modern Egyptians(upper), Nubians cluster closest to the Ancient Egyptians.



Because no Eurasians being in early dynastic Egypt or even prehistoric Egypt exist...



I already read through part of it and now I'm putting in my opinion like everyone else.

Now is when the word games start. You are citing a model that says that Egyptians are still overwhelmingly African and then saying that they were altered in lower Egypt, meaning that you either do not understand what you posted or are talking out of both sides of your mouth. If you want the Egyptians to be "African" then fine, you can always sight the Lucotte or Tishkoff models with the caveat that the vast majority of models disagree. I actually don't have a dog in that fight.

But then do not turn around and say that they were once a different "blacker" people in the next post as Asante does. What the Lucotte model proves is that they were the same people that they always were. You may not believe in the term "black" and may not be trying to push "black Egypt," but Asante, Jari, etc. are, and Lucotte is the nail in the coffin for that myth.

As for Keita, he has explicitly stated that the diversity we see in Egypt always existed, so whether that is African diversity or outside diversity, he agrees with Lucotte that the Egyptian were see today are the same as they have always been.

There is no model by which "black Egypt" is even possible, and if you want to solve that by attacking the word "black," then fine. But again, please do not go back in the next post and say that they used to be black.

 

[Kilwa Sultanate]

Now is when the word games start. You are citing a model that says that Egyptians are still overwhelmingly African and then saying that they were altered in lower Egypt, meaning that you either do not understand what you posted or are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Aye...I clearly said be specific on which region of Egypt you are talking about. Upper Egypt didn't really receive as much foreign admixture as Lower Egypt. Yes both are still African, but my clearly was that Upper Egyptians represent the Ancient Egyptians more than the Lower Egyptians. I said this from the very beginning....Yes I do understand what I posted.

If you want the Egyptians to be "African" then fine, you can always sight the Lucotte or Tishkoff models with the caveat that the vast majority of models disagree. I actually don't have a dog in that fight.

Wait first you said modern Egyptians are the closest to the Ancient Egyptians and then you say Egyptians are not African? If modern Egyptians are the closest to the Ancient Egyptians, then that would mean modern Egyptians are Africans due to the fact of Ancient Egyptians being African. Again like I said you HAVE to be specific...Which part of Egypt were they talking about? Lower Egyptians absorbed more foreign genes compared to Upper Egyptians.

Even thought Lower Egypt absorbed a lot of foreign admixture.

^^They still have a significant African component. And note...Those are the Egyptians of the North...In the Cairo area...

But then do not turn around and say that they were once a different "blacker" people in the next post as Asante does. What the Lucotte model proves is that they were the same people that they always were. You may not believe in the term "black" and may not be trying to push "black Egypt," but Asante, Jari, etc. are, and Lucotte is the nail in the coffin for that myth.

I try not to use black because calling the Ancient Egyptians black not just politically. Yes I did say those modern Egyptians may be labled black especially in the USA, but again black is just a social term and anyone can be black. There are black people outside of Africa like like the Jarawa tribe of the Adaman island south of India yet they are genetically DISTANT from Africans. That's one reason why I try to avoid that term in debates like this. But I do know that the Ancient Egyptians were African and related to other Northeast Africans like Ethiopians, Somalis, Beja, Nubians and other Nile Saharan speakers of that area.

As for Keita, he has explicitly stated that the diversity we see in Egypt always existed, so whether that is African diversity or outside diversity, he agrees with Lucotte that the Egyptian were see today are the same as they have always been.

Again I ask you, is he speaking of Egypt as a whole or Upper Egypt. Because like I said again Lower Egypt absorbed a lot of foreign admixture...

Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.
Barry J. Kemp.

"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos,"

By contrast an excavated set of around 300 burials from Tell el-Dab'a in the northeast delta belonging to a group considered to be Palestinian immigrants living in the late Middle Kingdom/Second Intermediate Period (1750 BC-1550 BC) have physical characteristics which group them more closely with ancient populations from the Near East and at a greater distance from those from Elephantine...
Barry J. Kemp.


^^^As you can see Lower Egypt absorbed waves of non African immigrants. So again are they talking about Egypt as a whole or just Upper Egypt? And may I get a quote?

There is no model by which "black Egypt" is even possible, and if you want to solve that by attacking the word "black," then fine. But again, please do not go back in the next post and say that they used to be black.

Um...When did I call them black??? The ancient Egyptians didn't even refer to themselves as black. Black is a recent western coined word. Some Africans don't even refer to themselves as black. I thought I made that clear in the beginning?

 

[Enkidu]

Also these upper Egyptians, people would say look black....
...
pictures snipped

I'd hardly call the people in pictures 1, 2, 3 and 6 black. There are millions of people living in the Indian subcontinent with skin color just as dark. I wouldn't call them black either.

 

[Kilwa Sultanate]

I'd hardly call the people in pictures 1, 2, 3 and 6 black. There are millions of people living in the Indian subcontinent with skin color just as dark. I wouldn't call them black either.

People's definition of black varies which is ANOTHER REASON why I try avoiding the word. Its tricky and not that tangible.

But would you personally consider these Tamil/Southern Indian women 'black'?

Some people say yes, some people say they don't. But Tamils and other southern Indians carry no African DNA at all.

 

[Enkidu]

People's definition of black varies which is ANOTHER REASON why I try avoiding the word. Its tricky and not that tangible.

But would you personally consider these Tamil/Southern Indian women 'black'?

Without knowing their place of origin, yes I would perhaps consider number 1 and 2 as black. You got me. Not 3 and 4 though.

BTW, I don't know much about genetics, but I mostly agree with what you have posted on this thread. Great to have another person interested in Ancient Egypt on this site. I just hope we would have more diverse discussions about this great civilization here on Historum. Too many times the threads are all about their race, which is pretty boring issue afterall.

 

[cachibatches]

Aye...I clearly said be specific on which region of Egypt you are talking about. Upper Egypt didn't really receive as much foreign admixture as Lower Egypt. Yes both are still African, but my clearly was that Upper Egyptians represent the Ancient Egyptians more than the Lower Egyptians. I said this from the very beginning....Yes I do understand what I posted.

A) You are not dictating the terms of this conversation
B) No genetics model (not even your own) agrees that there has been much mixing in historical time.

Wait first you said modern Egyptians are the closest to the Ancient Egyptians and then you say Egyptians are not African? If modern Egyptians are the closest to the Ancient Egyptians, then that would mean modern Egyptians are Africans due to the fact of Ancient Egyptians being African. Again like I said you HAVE to be specific...Which part of Egypt were they talking about? Lower Egyptians absorbed more foreign genes compared to Upper Egyptians.

You still clearly have not read through the genetics study I have posted and I do not intend to get into it in detail yet again when it has all been posted for you and discussed already.

Even thought Lower Egypt absorbed a lot of foreign admixture.

^^They still have a significant African component. And note...Those are the Egyptians of the North...In the Cairo area...

Overwhelmingly geneticists think that this mix happened in the stone ages. Read though the studies. And many show the Eurasian admixture as much higher by the by. But it is not particularly important.

I try not to use black because calling the Ancient Egyptians black not just politically. Yes I did say those modern Egyptians may be labled black especially in the USA, but again black is just a social term and anyone can be black. There are black people outside of Africa like like the Jarawa tribe of the Adaman island south of India yet they are genetically DISTANT from Africans. That's one reason why I try to avoid that term in debates like this. But I do know that the Ancient Egyptians were African and related to other Northeast Africans like Ethiopians, Somalis, Beja, Nubians and other Nile Saharan speakers of that area.

More word games. Modern Egyptians are very closely related to their ancestors. No genetics study disagrees with this. they disagree on how much is African and how much is Eurasian, but they do no disagree that they are the same people. Today, they do not largely consider themselves "black" and are not largely considered by others "black." If you understand this, then we have no disagreements. If you are going to push that they were once a different people, and in the next breath after that say that they were "black" even though you don't believe in the word, then you need to produce a GENETIC STUDY that shows it to be so. Lucotte agrees with me.

Again I ask you, is he speaking of Egypt as a whole or Upper Egypt. Because like I said again Lower Egypt absorbed a lot of foreign admixture...

Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.
Barry J. Kemp.

"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos,"

By contrast an excavated set of around 300 burials from Tell el-Dab'a in the northeast delta belonging to a group considered to be Palestinian immigrants living in the late Middle Kingdom/Second Intermediate Period (1750 BC-1550 BC) have physical characteristics which group them more closely with ancient populations from the Near East and at a greater distance from those from Elephantine...
Barry J. Kemp.

More limb lengths, which is garbage science. Where is your genetic study that counters everything I have posted? I have been playing this game for a very long time now and can keep playing it. No geneticist agrees with you or they guys taking tape measures to skeletons.

^^^As you can see Lower Egypt absorbed waves of non African immigrants. So again are they talking about Egypt as a whole or just Upper Egypt? And may I get a quote?

I don't see that at all. The only genetic evidence that I have seen posted is the Lucotte chart, which shows less than 30% admixture even in lower Egypt, and if I remember correctly does not date it. Most members of upper Egypt are not "black" either, despite any culling of a few pictures. Egyptians are not largely considered black.

Um...When did I call them black??? The ancient Egyptians didn't even refer to themselves as black. Black is a recent western coined word. Some Africans don't even refer to themselves as black. I thought I made that clear in the beginning?

More word games. You are trying to prove they used to be a different people, but you won't say black because you don't like the word.

Look...one last time.

There are two extant genetics models.

Overwhelmingly, geneticist agree that Egyptians were a mixed race from various migrations in the stone ages. Overwhelmingly.

A small number of genetic studies, which I respect but do not necessarily agree with, such as Lucotte and Tishkoff, say that they are primarily African even today. This of course means that there were never any great waves of invaders that altered them. They look more like middle easterners because they had already phenotypically developed to look as such.

They were never a different people.

If you agree with that, then we are fine. But please do not turn around and say: "oh, but they were a different people who I would not call black because I do not use the term, though others might call them black."

They are the same people that they always were.

 

[thetruth27]

Cachi! somalis builded after AE Huge and powerful empires..

Like the axum empire, WHO ruled the arab tribes like 700 years..

The adal empire, WHO defeated the Hasbasha kingdom, of the solomonic lineage. also the masters of Trading on sea!

The ajuuran empire, WHO defeated the portuguese empire WHO at that time were World superpowers! the ajuuran empire were like the wall street of the World at that time! all business were done on their ports.

Also those to empire existed in the same time! one controlled South and the other North..

We fought the longest war on the colonzation.. and defeated the British 4 times, before they won, only by airplanes!

actully it were the first place on earth to be used on air attack..

the only 2 countries the invaders admired there people were somalia and Afghanistan..

to understand the code of honor of somalis, you need to read the book Gerald hanley wrote in 1900.. its called Warriors: life and death amongst somalis!

there is also, another book called Blood and bone: the call of kinship in somali society..

We have carried the Thuya gene, with honor! unlike Egyptians! after we left that region! nothing good came them, but only invaders..

The Sons of war!! left the country! thats why no empire came amongst themselfs...

The rameses type warriors went South.. and today brave men amongst us named ramesade, in honor for rameses...

Garald hanleys Qoute:

"I never saw a Somali who showed any fear of death, which, impressive
though it sounds, carries within it the chill of pitilessness and
ferocity as well. If you have no fear of death you have none for anybody
else's either, but that fearlessness

This is from the other book I.A. Lewis

There is something about pastoralist nomads that makes them quite proud and war like, yes. When the British ruled over British East Africa (Kenya) they used to frequently imprison Bantus, but they would only fine Somalis because they came to find out that Somalis had the odd habit of dying in solitary confinement and thus illiciting vengeance from their immediate kin. So to save them the trouble they just started fining Somalis.

I think it stem from the prestige imbued on warriors in nomadic culture, and the fact that military prowess was rewarded. Warfare always had been an important factor in relations with outsiders such as the Ethiopian Christians and the Oromo and even with other Somali clans. The lack of modern weapons, however, prevented the Somalis from successfully resisting the imposition of European colonial rule.

.

 

[cell25]

I think most Fula or Fulani are 100% african in dna,but that's another topic.

 

[Atlantids]

You may not believe in the term "black" and may not be trying to push "black Egypt," but Asante, Jari, etc. are, and Lucotte is the nail in the coffin for that myth.

As for Keita, he has explicitly stated that the diversity we see in Egypt always existed, so whether that is African diversity or outside diversity, he agrees with Lucotte that the Egyptian were see today are the same as they have always been.

There is no model by which "black Egypt" is even possible, and if you want to solve that by attacking the word "black," then fine. But again, please do not go back in the next post and say that they used to be black.

Heads up, most the users you are debating (a) are from here:
EgyptSearch Forums: I have begun to doubt that the ancient Egyptians were black

Where they are currently thowing around ad hominem against you.

It's an Afrocentric troll haven. Most users here arguing the AE's were "Black" are also run by the same person who post at that "Egyptsearch" site. You will also notice the users there have an extensive banning record here - Egmond Codfried, Marc Washington etc.

Btw, no one takes these Afrocentric loons serious. That's why they are reduced to creating multiple accounts. The guy you are currently debating says he doesn't use "Black".

Well that's funny.

Only a few weeks ago he posted this:

"I mean if the Moors were Black/African then that would be a big blow to white supremacy, bigger than the Ancient Egyptians being African. Sure the Ancient Egyptians had one of the most advanced civilizations. But the Moors dominated Europe for over 600 years! That right there is a big giant blow for white supremacy. White supremacy has placed an illusion that Blacks/African history is suppose to be about black people being slaves and nothing more. But the Moors completely shatters that, not only does it shatters it, it has blacks being the slavers themselves and the whites(Europeans) the slaves...The ones being dominated."
EgyptSearch Forums: What is more important to Eurocentrics?

These Afrocentrics are not tricking anyone by their claim they aren't arguing for a "Black" Egypt... They just make themselves look dumber and dumber each day.