Spain,Turky,Sweden and Portugal join the Axis.

[Davetron the great]

Say all of these countries join the axis in 1940. Would it make a difference
Also-What if the Germans and Japanese had better coordination and the Japanese attacked The Soviet Union During June or July 41 instead of the US.

 

[Lord Fairfax]

Say all of these countries join the axis in 1940. Would it make a difference
Also-What if the Germans and Japanese had better coordination and the Japanese attacked The Soviet Union During June or July 41 instead of the US.

Sweden - not much difference
Spain, Portugal - not much difference, although some sharp conflicts over the Canaries, Azores, Cape Verde & Madeira

Turkey - big difference

 

[Davetron the great]

Sweden - not much difference
Spain, Portugal - not much difference, although some sharp conflicts over the Canaries, Azores, Cape Verde & Madeira

Turkey - big difference

Could you be more specific ? and what about Japan

 

[pugsville]

On what basis would it be a good move? And what would the Germany have to give up to make this happen.

The Soviet Union would heavily threatened by Turkey joining the axis. Much more likely that Stalin turns off the German resource tap and is more hostile/prepared for being attacked or attacks Germany.

Spain, Portugal, Turkey all their economies fundamentally relied on imports. Mainly of things that thats the European Axis economy was desperately short of already, economically they would add nothing and in fact be a large burden. Germany struggled to equip her own armies, let alone her historical allies, adding Spain, Portugal and turkey is going to stretch German resources. Non elf these countries would add anything militarily.

Spain entering the war, adds almost nothing militarily , poorly equiped an still divided country with an economy massively dependent on imports, it would be a complete basket case economy very quickly. The plus would be getting Gibraltar, which would be untenable with Spain joining the axis, however both the canaries and the azores would be quickly invaded and occupied by the British, thus eliminating the Atlantic air gap. Neither was ready to stop a real invasion and could not be supplied. These bases would really be enormous pluses for the British in the battle of the Atlantic, perhaps decisively so.

Turkey joining would make the eastern mediterranean and middle east very problematic for the British. Turkish forces are unlikely to much chop at all unsupported, and the Turkish rails were pretty abominable in this period, supporting more than a couple of German motorised armoured divisions would be very hard work. But unless Vichy Syria is attacked the routes through northern Iraq, or Persia would be even harder logistically. Unless vichy France is attacked (which would throw large Vichy forces into the Free French camp, making ItalianLibya untenable.) which had reasonable forces, backed by the British could well hold of a small german force.

Any German forces in Turkey would be tantamount to a declaration war onto soviet union.

The Soviet border on caucasus is agin very logistically challenged, the Germans would be unable to place much more than a very small force there 5-6 divines anything beyond that would logistically hard. Again the Soviets had large garrison, and the terrain favoured the defender, unsuitable for armoured a=warfare and the soviets having pretty good logistics on the other side would be at a huge logistical advantage, much better able to support their troops.

The Japanese Army was wholly unsuitable for any real land war against an advanced power. The Logistics in the far east would quickly bring their invasion to halt, the Soviets maintained a fairly large garrison the East 9throughout the war yes they brought some back after their agents confirmed that the Japanese would not move but still kept a fair garrison after that) , and having well placed agents in Japan were unlikely to be surprised. The Japanese would most likely be able to overrun the Far east (at best) but the Soviets would be able to quickly form a line of defence maybe at Irtusk (at worst) and would be able to hold of the Japanese army with little more historical Garrison. But it would drastically reduce the flow of lend lease 40% of which went across the pacific (US ships protected with nothing more than the soviet flag sailing rightist Japan). But these route was of almost no importance in 1941. It would do very little to solve the Japanese resource problem, the Japanese consider this option and rejected it. With most of their Army tied up in China, and US embargo hurting their economy, they would be grinding to a halt economy pretty quickly. It would involve the Japanese placing German interests ahead of their own which is ahistorical.

 

[Chlodio]

There was little for Japan to gain by attacking the Soviet Union. Unlike a war with the US, a war with the Soviets would have been a ground war, and the Japanese Army was already tied down in China. The Japanese Navy would have little to do fighting the Soviets.

Spain, as an Axis partner might have captured Gibralter. They certainly would have made it untennable as a British naval base.

Portugal would have kept the Azores out of allied hands so no air and naval base for anti U-boat operations. The Torch landings and the resupply of Malta would have much more difficult if the entire Iberian Penninsula was Axis air bases. Although Pugsville is right - the British would have quickly invaded the Azores.

Germany was better off with a neutral Sweden. Swedish iron mines and industrial plants were immune from Allied bombing raids and their products were easily exported to Germany. The Swedish Army wasn't big enough to make a difference, and where would you deploy it to? No one ever challenged German control of the Baltic, so Germany didn't need the Swedish Navy.

The Turkish Army could have invaded the Caucases, and perhaps captured the Soviet oil fields, if not in '41, then in conjunction with the '42 offensive. Turkey may have also pushed south to attack the Suez Canal in rear or east into Persia to cut the Allied supply line to the Soviet Union (although the same thing could have been accomplished by invading the Caucases and capturing Grozny).

 

[Lord Fairfax]

Could you be more specific ? and what about Japan

The Japanese question should really be in a separate thread, as it's a different topic completely.

 

[Alto]

Spain and Portugal wouldn't have joined together, but they may have joined against one another as Salazar forecasted. In that case, the Spanish would unify Iberia under their military occupation and create serious problems for the British in Gibraltar and the Med supply route, but would probably be invaded on and off.

Sweden - nothing. A second finland, but without Mannerheim and his crack army.

Turkey- big difference, seems to be a consensus. The Axis plan for Turkey was to give them parts of Greece and Baku for them to invade the USSR. They probably wouldn't have made that big a deal of the ME situation - that isn't as relevant as oil at this point in time. However, a German-Turkish invasion of the USSR would have solved the fuel shortages and seized the Caucasian oilfields with ease. No pincer, no Stalingrad.

With Turkey also comes Iran. Reza Shah detested the British and admired the Germans, and without a Caucasian border, the Soviets couldn't depose him. This gives Germany a direct land route to India- and at this time both Turkey and Iran had finished building transnational railways.

 

[VHS]

The Japanese question should really be in a separate thread, as it's a different topic completely.

We have discussed Japan in the Pacific War quite extensively!

 

[Yôḥānān]

Spain and Portugal wouldn't have joined together, but they may have joined against one another as Salazar forecasted. In that case, the Spanish would unify Iberia under their military occupation and create serious problems for the British in Gibraltar and the Med supply route, but would probably be invaded on and off.

Salazar would probably change the Portuguese capital to Luanda and gather an African army to reconquer continental Portugal. In the real scenario though faced with the risk of a German invasion his plan was to move government to Azores.

 

[Yôḥānān]

Spain, Portugal, Turkey all their economies fundamentally relied on imports. Mainly of things that thats the European Axis economy was desperately short of already, economically they would add nothing and in fact be a large burden. Germany struggled to equip her own armies, let alone her historical allies, adding Spain, Portugal and turkey is going to stretch German resources. Non elf these countries would add anything militarily.

Portugal was the main European producer of tungsten at the time.

 

[martin76]

In 1939 spain had 3.000.000 soldiers.. mostly of them veterans (as it was evidenced by Blaue Division and Free-French Legionaries in 1940-1945) but a small fleet and air forces (Around 700 planes, from Grumman and Polikarpov to Bf-109 and Ju-87, He-111, Ju-88). About tanks also very different models, from Ansaldo small tanks to Pzkw IV, III, II, I. And oil only for 50 days.


Spain and Portugal had fought in the same side...not only Iberian Pact signatured by Salazar and Franco... but the Portuguese support to Franco during Civil War. Franco would never had attacked Portugal (as he didn´t in 1974 when USA wanted a Spanish invasion).
So, the only option is Spain and Portugal joined the Axis.. or none of them.

I think not projection at all. The Spanish-Portuguese Army would have been good for defensive operations or to attack under German system of logistic but not at their own.
I think they would have conquered Gibraltar (and lost Canary, Açores and Madeira) and they would have send regiments to Italian Africa and to the Russian Front.

El Pacto Ibérico (Iberian Pact, 1939 and 1942):

 

[LatinoEuropa]

The Treaty of Windsor established between Portugal and England, being the oldest diplomatic alliance of the world still in force. It was signed in May 1386 after the English fought alongside the House of Avis in the battle of Aljubarrota and with the purpose of renewing the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance established by the two countries in 1373.
England and Portugal establish a Treaty of Alliance in 1373 having the English fought together with the House of Avis in the battle of Aljubarrota against the Kingdom of Castile in 1385.
I think that this treaty is still valid today.
My country said that Salazar told the Portuguese people of the war, I told them not to starve. And they sent a lot of food from Portugal to Germany and to the Allies. Salazar played with a stick two beaks. Here Salazar was intelligent, as was Franco of Spain . Hitler wanted Franco of Spain to turn against Portugal because of Gibraltar and beyond.

.............................................................

Portuguese proverb - provébio Português.
Has to do with the history of the two countries.
From Spain, neither good wind nor good marriage.
De. Espanha,nem bom vento,nem bom casamento.
.....................................................................
O.Saber não ocupa lugar.
Knowledge does not occupy place

 

[LatinoEuropa]

In 1939 spain had 3.000.000 soldiers.. mostly of them veterans (as it was evidenced by Blaue Division and Free-French Legionaries in 1940-1945) but a small fleet and air forces (Around 700 planes, from Grumman and Polikarpov to Bf-109 and Ju-87, He-111, Ju-88). About tanks also very different models, from Ansaldo small tanks to Pzkw IV, III, II, I. And oil only for 50 days.


Spain and Portugal had fought in the same side...not only Iberian Pact signatured by Salazar and Franco... but the Portuguese support to Franco during Civil War. Franco would never had attacked Portugal (as he didn´t in 1974 when USA wanted a Spanish invasion).
So, the only option is Spain and Portugal joined the Axis.. or none of them.

I think not projection at all. The Spanish-Portuguese Army would have been good for defensive operations or to attack under German system of logistic but not at their own.
I think they would have conquered Gibraltar (and lost Canary, Açores and Madeira) and they would have send regiments to Italian Africa and to the Russian Front.

El Pacto Ibérico (Iberian Pact, 1939 and 1942):

Martin76 if Spain invaded Portugal in 1974 1975 with the help of the Americans, even today Portugal and Spain might still have been at war, and hatred between the two would remain several centuries, I know that the Americans are few intelligent and have always been Enemies of Portugal to this day, martin niguem gives nothing to niguem, who to believe in American politics is the same thing to believe in the devil. Although Franco was Spain was intelligent, see what happens with the Basque country Catalonia who want their independence from spain castile.
Friend we speak different languages although they seize Latin languages and the past history between Portugal and Spain were never good.
Peace on the Iberian Peninsula because this world is full of wars because of American politics and countries that go to mass with America.
................
O.Saber não ocupa lugar.
Knowledge does not occupy place.

 

[martin76]

The Treaty of Windsor established between Portugal and England, being the oldest diplomatic alliance of the world still in force.of Spain to turn against Portugal because of Gibraltar and beyond.

..e

Not in force from 1387 but from XVIII century at best...Not in Force when Duke of Alva took Lisboa in 1580 and not in Force during 16th and 17th centuries.. not even in force in 1801 or in 1807. A legend is only a legend.

But we are talking about Spain-Portugal-Sweden-Turkey in Axis side.

 

[LatinoEuropa]

Not in force from 1387 but from XVIII century at best...Not in Force when Duke of Alva took Lisboa in 1580 and not in Force during 16th and 17th centuries.. not even in force in 1801 or in 1807. A legend is only a legend.

But we are talking about Spain-Portugal-Sweden-Turkey in Axis side.

We talk history Falamos de história
You say it's a legend, I say no.

 

[martin76]

Martin76 if Spain invaded Portugal in 1974 1975 with the help of the Americans, even today Portugal and Spain might still have been at war, and hatred between the two would remain several centuries, I know that the Americans are few intelligent and have always been Enemies of Portugal to this day, martin niguem gives nothing to niguem, who to believe in American politics is the same thing to believe in the devil. Although Franco was Spain was intelligent, see what happens with the Basque country Catalonia who want their independence from spain castile.
Friend we speak different languages although they seize Latin languages and the past history between Portugal and Spain were never good.
Peace on the Iberian Peninsula because this world is full of wars because of American politics and countries that go to mass with America.
................
O.Saber não ocupa lugar.
Knowledge does not occupy place.

You are right. +1 That was the reason Franco said to Yankees. What you wrote: and hatred between the two would remain several centuries
Althought Washington wanted the invasion in 1974.. Franco said No. Portugal was (and is) a sister nation.. an invasion in 1974 would have mean centuries of hate.. so Franco said No. Only if Portugal spread communism to Spain.. only in that case, Spain invaded Portugal. But Lisboa in 1974-75 never tried to extend communism to Spain. And that war never took place.

In 1939-1945, Portugal and Spain would have fought together in the same side.

 

[LatinoEuropa]

Traduzir

martin 76 se tal acontece-se a espanha a querer invadir Portugal a Espanha tava preparada militarmente ou então tinha que ter ajuda americana.Portugal nessa época tinha 1 milhão de militares fora aqueles que se estavam a prepar para ir para as excolonias portuguesas é que uma guerra é uma guerra e uma guerrilha é mais dificl de a combater e os portugueses nessa altura penso eu que estavam mais preparados para essa invasão de Espanha,com isto o que eu quero dizer.
(É só uma pergunta,não confunda tou a falar de história nada mais) eu sou um homem pela paz sou contra todas as guerras que existe no mundo, duas coisa são certas todo ser humano tem dois dias um para nascer e o outro para morrer e a terra não é nossa,nós é que somos da terra,andamos em cima dela e feliz daquele que vai para debaicho dela. Terra

796/5000
Martin 76 if this happens if Spain wanted to invade Spain was prepared militarily or had to have American help.Portugal at that time had 1 million soldiers outside those who were preparing to go to Portuguese excolonies is that one War is a war and a guerrilla is more difficult to fight and the Portuguese at that time I think they were better prepared for this invasion of Spain, by which I mean.
(It's just a question, do not confuse I'm talking about history, nothing more) I am a man for peace I am against all the wars that exist in the world, two things are certain every human being has two days one to be born and the other to die And the earth is not ours, we are that we are of the earth, we walk upon it and happy of that which goes to Her debating.
a terra não é nossa,nós é que pertencemos á terra,andamos em cima dela e feliz daquele que vai para debaicho dela. » Terra

 

[Yôḥānān]

The alliance with England was always active except for the period between 1580-1640 where Portugal was under the Spanish crown. The active period didn't translate in any relevant particular military assistance at least in numbers that I know of except for Wellington's invasion o the peninsula, but had probably more the benefit of a potential assistance.



As far as Portugal is concerned an entry in the war no matter which side, besides not giving any relevant military support, seems to me would weaken Salazar's political position since I'm under the impression one of the main banners he had against the example of the first republic was keeping Portugal out of an world war.

 

[Yôḥānān]

Spain and Portugal had fought in the same side...not only Iberian Pact signatured by Salazar and Franco... but the Portuguese support to Franco during Civil War. Franco would never had attacked Portugal (as he didn´t in 1974 when USA wanted a Spanish invasion).

It was more the other way around.

"Portugal posed a serious threat to Spain, not only because of the way the situation there was developing, but because of the foreign support it might ultimately receive, which could be hostile to Spain," wrote diplomat Robert Ingersoll to the then Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, in a report on the March 1975 meeting.
"Spain would fight the anti-communist battle alone if necessary," he summarised. "But it hoped that it would have the cooperation and understanding of its friends, not only in the Spanish interest but in the interest of all who thought the same."

Gen Franco wanted to declare war on Portugal - Telegraph

 

[notgivenaway]

Portugal, no. It has, and still has, a treaty with the UK for mutual assistance. Salazar allowed the British to use the Azores as a base for the Battle of the Atlantic.

Spain was damaged after the Civil War, though could possibly have retaken Gibraltar or made things more difficult for the British in the Mediterranean. Whehter it would have had a decisive difference, possibly not.

Turkey, again similar to Spain's effect.

As for Japan, it's a matter of geography. Invading Siberia is one thing, unless they like to capture trees, ice, snow, or the odd Amur Tiger. Whether they had the supplies to go across Siberia into European Russia is moot. I doubt they had the fleet to go in the Arctic either, and this would have been dangerous for obvious reasons.