Anglicization of Scotland: cultural or demographic?

Joined Mar 2016
146 Posts | 1+
Bloodlands
Today almost all of Scotland's population speaks English (or its local dialects - e.g. Scots is actually a dialect of English). But when Scotland was founded around 843 AD, it was a fully Celtic-speaking kingdom (even though not all of the population spoke Gaelic Celtic - some groups in the south and east spoke Brythonic Celtic). It became a strong enough and centralised enough state to resist significant invasions, except for those in lightly populated fringes in the extreme north - the Northern Isles, etc. A core of the kingdom was solid from that time. No invaders subsequently permanently annexed any part of Scotland and no hostile wave of Germanic (and certainly not English) settlers happened.

The opposite was the case - Celtic Scotland annexed a large English-speaking territory after the battle of Carham in 1016 AD, and those lands became the south-eastern part of Scotland. That expansion brought for the first time a large group of English-speakers politically into the Scottish kingdom. Then - especially after 1100-1200 AD - Scottish kings invited small numbers of nobles/knights of the Anglo-Norman type tradition in order to form heavy cavalry shock troops loyal to the Scottish Crown. They also invited some urban-type settlers (including traders) and fishers of a mix of Norman, Breton, Fleming, Anglo-Saxon, French and other North-Western continental European backgrounds, presumably in order to increase the population and to help stimulate economic growth.

Initially those migrants formed just scattered foreign islands in a sea of local Celtic-speakers. It was really only after 1400 (or between 1300 and 1600) that - for some reasons - Celtic language started to gradually disappear from much of Scotland, getting replaced by English language - and that eventually led to the highland-lowland division, and to a funny invertion of identity. Up until around the 1500s the main languages of Scotland were called Scottis (meaning Gaelic) and Inglis (meaning lowland Scots dialect of English). However, from around 1500 with Gaelic language retreating to the highland line and its loss of prestige relative to English, a weird invertion of identity and historical reality happened - Inglis started to be called Scottis, while Gaelic was falsely alienized by calling it Erse (Irish). So, identities morphed and turned reality on its head. However, in the case of Scotland the first waves of reduction of Gaelic to a retreating language was an internal process.

Between 843 AD and 1603 AD Scotland only suffered a handful or two years with invaders controlling parts of Scotland and none of them led to permanent settlement. The replacement of Gaelic was peaceful. Scotland kind of colonised itself culturally. Whether the change of language in Scotland was mostly cultural (i.e. local Celtic-speakers gradually adopting English language), or caused by higher natural growth rates of that "intrusive" population which entered Scotland in the High Middle Ages (but the language of which started to replace native Celtic dialects in the countryside only few centuries later) than of locals, remains debatable.

What has actually happened, what do you think about this ???
 
Joined Mar 2016
146 Posts | 1+
Bloodlands
And how is it possible that "Inglis" became "Scottish"; and "Scottis" (Gaelic) became "Erse" (Irish), leading to alienization of Highlanders (who retained the Celtic language, unlike Lowlanders who gradually adopted English) and to the hilarious saying - popular among Highlanders - that: "Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland!" (referring to English-speaking Lowlanders who supposedly ruined Scotland; not to original Gaelic-speaking Scots who founded the kingdom of Scotland in 843 AD):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFaAIylVHfI
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
Today almost all of Scotland's population speaks English (or its local dialects - e.g. Scots is actually a dialect of English). But when Scotland was founded around 843 AD, it was a fully Celtic-speaking kingdom (even though not all of the population spoke Gaelic Celtic - some groups in the south and east spoke Brythonic Celtic). It became a strong enough and centralised enough state to resist significant invasions, except for those in lightly populated fringes in the extreme north - the Northern Isles, etc. A core of the kingdom was solid from that time. No invaders subsequently permanently annexed any part of Scotland and no hostile wave of Germanic (and certainly not English) settlers happened.

The opposite was the case - Celtic Scotland annexed a large English-speaking territory after the battle of Carham in 1016 AD, and those lands became the south-eastern part of Scotland. That expansion brought for the first time a large group of English-speakers politically into the Scottish kingdom. Then - especially after 1100-1200 AD - Scottish kings invited small numbers of nobles/knights of the Anglo-Norman type tradition in order to form heavy cavalry shock troops loyal to the Scottish Crown. They also invited some urban-type settlers (including traders) and fishers of a mix of Norman, Breton, Fleming, Anglo-Saxon, French and other North-Western continental European backgrounds, presumably in order to increase the population and to help stimulate economic growth.

Initially those migrants formed just scattered foreign islands in a sea of local Celtic-speakers. It was really only after 1400 (or between 1300 and 1600) that - for some reasons - Celtic language started to gradually disappear from much of Scotland, getting replaced by English language - and that eventually led to the highland-lowland division, and to a funny invertion of identity. Up until around the 1500s the main languages of Scotland were called Scottis (meaning Gaelic) and Inglis (meaning lowland Scots dialect of English). However, from around 1500 with Gaelic language retreating to the highland line and its loss of prestige relative to English, a weird invertion of identity and historical reality happened - Inglis started to be called Scottis, while Gaelic was falsely alienized by calling it Erse (Irish). So, identities morphed and turned reality on its head. However, in the case of Scotland the first waves of reduction of Gaelic to a retreating language was an internal process.

Between 843 AD and 1603 AD Scotland only suffered a handful or two years with invaders controlling parts of Scotland and none of them led to permanent settlement. The replacement of Gaelic was peaceful. Scotland kind of colonised itself culturally. Whether the change of language in Scotland was mostly cultural (i.e. local Celtic-speakers gradually adopting English language), or caused by higher natural growth rates of that "intrusive" population which entered Scotland in the High Middle Ages (but the language of which started to replace native Celtic dialects in the countryside only few centuries later) than of locals, remains debatable.

What has actually happened, what do you think about this ???

Hi there, there are a few misconceptions in what you've written.

After Kenneth McAlpin unified the Pictish Kingdom with the much smaller Dalriada in 843 the Gaelic of Dalriada fairly quickly replaced the Pictish Britonic language. Probably because it was the language of the Christian church and formed something of a lingua franca amongst the many competing dialects.
The language was restricted to the north of Strathclyde and the Forth and didn't include Orkney, Shetland, the Islands and Caithness which were all Nordic. What is now Lothian and the Borders was part of the Kingdom of Bernicia and then Northumberland who spoke an Anglo Saxon language which was the root of what we call Scots. Strathclyde and the south east were Britonic and spoke a form of welsh. Non of these Anglo Saxon, Welsh or Nordic areas ever spoke Gaelic and in fact the great majority of the Scottish population never have.
Gealic was the language of government for a while but once the court moved from Dunkeld to the much more prosperous Dun Edin ( Anglo Saxon Edinburgh) Anglis was quickly adopted.
 
Joined Mar 2016
146 Posts | 1+
Bloodlands
Non of these Anglo Saxon, Welsh or Nordic areas ever spoke Gaelic and in fact the great majority of the Scottish population never have.

Wow, you seem to be one of these "people in denial" mentioned here:

How Celtic is Scotland? - Page 3

Alan said:
It appears Gaelic still ran to the east coasts of Scotland from Fife to the far north as late as 1400AD with English/Scots dialect in pockets in burghs. Now there was no major intrusion from anywhere after that date so the decline and retreat of Gaelic towards the highland line was cultural not demographic. All those east coast lowland rural people from Fife to Inverness who spoke Gaelic c. 1400 didnt just move anywhere. Their language was simply displaced over time as Scots-English became the dialect of prestige and opportunity. The fact Gaelic was the dominant language of most of Scotland except the south and extreme north from c. 840-1400AD, even in the lowlands means that of the c. 800 years when Scotland was an entity of its own, 600 were in a period when Gaelic was the common language of most of the lowlands as well as the highlands. You get people who deny this but it is what linguists have shown.
 
Joined Mar 2016
146 Posts | 1+
Bloodlands
So it seems that Gaelic was once the language of the vast majority of Scotland's population.

On what basis are you suggesting that never over 50% of Scotland's population spoke Gaelic ???

Please note that regional distribution of Scotland's population in the past was different than today:

http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/...us-of-1755-scottish-population-statistics.pdf

Before industrialization, over 1/2 of population lived in the Highlands. Later people migrated south.
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
Wow, you seem to be one of these "people in denial" mentioned here:

How Celtic is Scotland? - Page 3

Wow! And I never realised I was in denial:zany:.

Everything in your link agrees with what I wrote so I have no idea what you are referring to? You are correct in saying the Highland portion of the population was larger in the past but was never larger than the agriculturally rich central and south of the country. It simply couldn't produce on the same scale.

How Celtic is scotland? The answer is a lot but not all Gaelic. The Picts and the South West were Britonic Celts and constituted a significantly larger population than the Gaels or Scoti if you wish to call them that.

I have no axe to grind here, just an interest in the history even when it doesn't quite fit how some would like it. I even named my son after Kenneth McAlpin lol.
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
Also if you take a trip up the east coast through Angus to Aberdeenshire and Caithness you will find little evidence of Gaelic. The prevalent dialect is Doric and the place names reflect a strong Britonic and Norse background.
 
Joined Mar 2016
146 Posts | 1+
Bloodlands
Everything in your link agrees with what I wrote

Really?

If I understand correctly, user Alan in that link claims that Gaelic-speaking zone extended all the way to the southern border of Scotland (except for those south-eastern portions which were post-Bernician and English-speaking).

Yes, initially that was Brythonic, but was later Gaelicised, and only then De-Celticized. Is it untrue?

Do you have any maps showing languages around 843 AD when Scotland emerged?
 
Joined Mar 2016
146 Posts | 1+
Bloodlands
The Picts and the South West were Britonic Celts and constituted a significantly larger population than the Gaels or Scoti

But weren't they Gaelicised at first (before getting De-Gaelicised later on)?
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
Really?

If I understand correctly, user Alan in that link claims that Gaelic-speaking zone extended all the way to the southern border of Scotland (except for those south-eastern portions which were post-Bernician and English-speaking).

Yes, initially that was Brythonic, but was later Gaelicised, and only then De-Celticized. Is it untrue?

Do you have any maps showing languages around 843 AD when Scotland emerged?

Scotlands southern borders fluctuated a lot and at times encompased Cumberland, Cumbria and most of what is now Northumberland. It was fixed into what we would recognise with the Treaty of York in 1237.

Like I said earlier the SE was predominantly Anglo Saxon and the SW including Strathclyde predominantly Britonic. As these areas were absorbed Gaelic as the language of Government became a lingua franca but never dominated and even this situation did not last long. Anglis with the help of trade from the far wealthier south and England replaced Gaelic as lingua franca for very practical reasons and Malcolm III marriage to Margaret of Wessex and the court movement south was Gaelic's death nell though it would be a long slow process.
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
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For language distribution it's difficult to be accurate but place names tell a story. In Strathclyde and the Sw lots of Abers etc and in the SE lots of burghs, wicks and tons give an idea.
 
Joined Mar 2014
8,881 Posts | 30+
Canterbury
Last edited:
And how is it possible that "Inglis" became "Scottish"; and "Scottis" (Gaelic) became "Erse" (Irish)
'Scottish' Gaelic never became Irish: it always had been, and was essentially the same up until the early modern. In the medieval and early modern, 'Scottish Gaels' were universally known as 'Irish Scots' or simply 'Irish.'

WITSEND is right, by the way. Gaelic was never close to a universal language in Scotland. There were always large areas where it wasn't spoken at any given time, and remain many where it has never been spoken. 'No more than fifty per cent' may be a tiny exaggeration, but it's much closer to the truth than saying Gaelic was Scotland's wall-to-wall tongue. My historical speciality is medieval Gaeldom, and I can confirm that even there (even though Lords of the Isles and others were very Gaelic and largely-independent) much government was done in Scots.
 
Joined Sep 2013
6,844 Posts | 688+
Wirral
'Scottish' Gaelic never became Irish: it always had been, and was essentially the same up until the early modern. In the medieval and early modern, 'Scottish Gaels' were universally known as 'Irish Scots' or simply 'Irish.'

WITSEND is right, by the way. Gaelic was never close to a universal language in Scotland. There were always large areas where it wasn't spoken at any given time, and remain many where it has never been spoken. 'No more than fifty per cent' may be a tiny exaggeration, but it's much closer to the truth than saying Gaelic was Scotland's wall-to-wall tongue. My historical speciality is medieval Gaeldom, and I can confirm that even there (even though Lords of the Isles and others were very Gaelic and largely-independent) much government was done in Scots.

Nothing to do with the topic but how similar are Irish and Scottish Gaelic?
 
Joined Mar 2014
8,881 Posts | 30+
Canterbury
Nowadays - barring lots of shared words and geographically-close dialects (i.e. Islay and Ulster) - they're not mutually intelligible. One is much more easily-learned if you have a handle on the other, but it's not like English and Scots or Dutch and Frisian where you wouldn't need a translator to hold a conversation.
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
Nowadays - barring lots of shared words and geographically-close dialects (i.e. Islay and Ulster) - they're not mutually intelligible. One is much more easily-learned if you have a handle on the other, but it's not like English and Scots or Dutch and Frisian where you wouldn't need a translator to hold a conversation.

Wouldn't someone speaking old or Shakespearian English be able to understand Scots?
 
Joined Mar 2014
8,881 Posts | 30+
Canterbury
Partly; it does include a lot of words that are considered archaic in English. But at the same time, modern English has had a lot of influence in recent decades, to the point independent Scots vocabulary outside of Doric is stagnant or even moribund. (As a southern Englishmen who's spent a lot of time in the northeast of Scotland, it is bloody hard to understand spoken Doric.)
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
Partly; it does include a lot of words that are considered archaic in English. But at the same time, modern English has had a lot of influence in recent decades, to the point independent Scots vocabulary outside of Doric is stagnant or even moribund. (As a southern Englishmen who's spent a lot of time in the northeast of Scotland, it is bloody hard to understand spoken Doric.)

My sister married a Farmer from Insch in Aberdeenshire. When I first went up there his Dad said to me " Yer a git beg loon richt enough". I had no idea what he'd said and had to ask my brother in law if I'd been insulted.
 
Joined Mar 2016
146 Posts | 1+
Bloodlands
WITSEND is right, by the way. Gaelic was never close to a universal language in Scotland. There were always large areas where it wasn't spoken at any given time, and remain many where it has never been spoken. 'No more than fifty per cent' may be a tiny exaggeration, but it's much closer to the truth than saying Gaelic was Scotland's wall-to-wall tongue. My historical speciality is medieval Gaeldom, and I can confirm that even there (even though Lords of the Isles and others were very Gaelic and largely-independent) much government was done in Scots.

But between 843 AD and 1016 AD there weren't even any Inglis-speakers within the political borders of Scotland, AFAIK.

It was only after the battle of Carham in 1016 when first Inglis-speakers were incorporated / annexed into the kingdom.
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
But between 843 AD and 1016 AD there weren't even any Inglis-speakers within the political borders of Scotland, AFAIK.

It was only after the battle of Carham in 1016 when first Inglis-speakers were incorporated / annexed into the kingdom.

In 945 Malcolm I negotiated the possession of Cumberland so it can be assumed that everything North and West of this was under Scottish rule. Sometime around 971 Edgar of England Formally ceded Lothian to Malcolm but again it is thought it had been ruled from Scotland for some time before that. These gains were balanced by losses is in the north, Earl Sigurd of Orkney was master of the Western Isles and the mainland as far south as Moray.
 

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