Battle of Troy refought in 20th century

Midas · Jun 18, 2012

Enkidu said:
Nope, to my knowledge there doesn't exist a single such inscription from the Mycenaean preiod when Troy was supposed to exist.

There is one record in Linear B from Pylos (PY Ep 705.6), that might refer to the ethnonym Troja (trojan woman).

Palaeolexicon - The Linear B word to-ro-ja

Worst case scenario it could refer to Tloja (woman from Tlos).

Enkidu · Jun 18, 2012

Midas said:
I didn't say he has a historic value, but I am pretty sure we're not talking about Tolkien here. Homer did probably base his stories on some kind of truth. We know for example that the solar eclipse he mentions on Odysseus return to Ithaca was a true event. I don't think that the later mass hysteria of the Greeks with the heroes of the Trojan war, was based on 100% fairytales. The events might have been different than how they were described or they were inspired by a combination of other events of that time.

Nothing to disagree here. I don't believe either that it was all just his imagination, but it would be nice to know how much there is truth to the story. The idea of fighting a war for a decade over one stolen woman seems pretty crazy for a modern reader. It would seem that at least Helen was Homer's invention and not the real cause of the war, but who really knows? If nothing else historically, Homer's works tell us much about the time and the people who lived there 3000 years ago.

In fact I love The Iliad so much that I started reading it in the original language in January. I'm still only reading chapter 5 though. It's a long term project.

Just to draw a modern parallel Mika Waltari wrote the novel "The Egyptian". The places, the Pharaohs, the one god etc etc, were real events/persons who he used in his story. The story is a made up, but is based on real people. places and historical events.

I'm a little surprised that you know about Mika Waltari. I thought he was only read in Finland. The Egyptian is indeed a very well researched book, even though Waltari himself never traveled to Egypt.

Kirialax · Jun 18, 2012

Did any gods appear in this latter-day Trojan War?

macro · Jun 19, 2012

Midas said:
There is one record in Linear B from Pylos (PY Ep 705.6), that might refer to the ethnonym Troja (trojan woman).

Palaeolexicon - The Linear B word to-ro-ja

Worst case scenario it could refer to Tloja (woman from Tlos).

It is important to note that it refered to a slave woman.

all the men were killed in Troy.

Enkidu · Jun 19, 2012

macro said:
It is important to note that it refered to a slave woman.

all the men were killed in Troy.

What about Aeneas?

Midas · Jun 19, 2012

macro said:
It is important to note that it refered to a slave woman.

all the men were killed in Troy.

I cannot find the full context of the table now, to see how it refers to that woman, but probably she was a slave. I don't know the date either.

Enkidu · Jun 19, 2012

BTW macro: I'm not sure if you know what the proverb in my signature reads. "Who praises the father, if not the evil sons?"

It can be taken to criticize people who for nationalistic or political reasons are claiming co-identity with the ancient ancestors who in reality they have nothing in common with. Even Cicero writes that it's an old saying but it still rings true in my opinion.

Midas · Jun 19, 2012

Enkidu said:
In fact I love The Iliad so much that I started reading it in the original language in January. I'm still only reading chapter 5 though. It's a long term project.

Ah nice! You are studying ancient Greek literature or something?

Enkidu said:
I'm a little surprised that you know about Mika Waltari. I thought he was only read in Finland. The Egyptian is indeed a very well researched book, even though Waltari himself never traveled to Egypt.

I am from the neighborhood, that's why. Ruotsalainen & Krekalainen

macro · Jun 19, 2012

Midas said:
I cannot find the full context of the table now, to see how it refers to that woman, but probably she was a slave. I don't know the date either.

I read it in a book about Iliad that it talked about slaves. Believe me on this one.

macro · Jun 19, 2012

@enkidu

Here is another proverb:

Nationalistic people always accuse others of being nationalistic.

Enkidu said:
It can be taken to criticize people who for nationalistic or political reasons are claiming co-identity with the ancient ancestors who in reality they have nothing in common with. Even Cicero writes that it's an old saying but it still rings true in my opinion.

And what do you mean with this? What has this to do with this thread? Be more precise

Midas · Jun 19, 2012

macro said:
I read it in a book about Iliad that it talked about slaves. Believe me on this one.

I don't doubt it at all. It is just I could not confirm.

Enkidu · Jun 19, 2012

macro said:
And what do you mean with this? What has this to do with this thread? Be more precise

Well you interpret later deeds as acts of revenge for ancient wrongdoings at Troy. To be frank, I think you say these things with some agenda in your mind, not necessarily to seek the truth.

For a modern Turk to claim that his ancestors fought at Troy is like a modern Englishman claiming that his ancestors built the Stonehenge. Sure, he may be partly descended from someone who was living there at the time, but the great majority of his ancestors from that time were more than likely living in a different part of Europe (or Asia) altogether.

In the same way, I think it is lame for modern Greeks to take credit for the achievements of an ancient community which has long been gone.

Midas · Jun 19, 2012

Enkidu said:
For a modern Turk to claim that his ancestors fought at Troy is like a modern Englishman claiming that his ancestors built the Stonehenge. Sure, he may be partly descended from someone who was living there at the time, but the great majority of his ancestors from that time were more than likely living in a different part of Europe (or Asia) altogether.

In the same way, I think it is lame for modern Greeks to take credit for the achievements of an ancient community which has long been gone.

As it has been discussed in many threads with other fellow Turks, the Anatolian Turks are descendants of previous populations of Anatolia including IE (Hittite, Luwians, Pala, Lydians) and Non IE Anatolians (Hatti, Urartu), Greeks, Phrygians, Assyrians, Armenians, Persians and so on. Only 10% maybe (based on DNA) descend from Altaic populations.

The point I made though in this thread is that the populations of Anatolia were not Turkic/Altaic nor did they identify themselves as Turks. In the case of Troy, its citizens were most probably Luwians who had no knowledge of Turks and probably referred to Greek speaking people as Ahhiyawa.

As for England and Stonehedge, it is another story. I saw a documentary where they found the immediate modern descendant of some cave people living in Britain back in 4500 B.C. However, Britains population was probably not large which makes the Brits largely descendants of Indoeuropean people who came to the Island after the building of Stonehedge. Regardless the DNA material of each region, the Stonehedge people did not identify themselves as English.

I know your concern about macros statements, but I wanted to make clear that genetically, Turks of Turkey are not unrelated to the previous inhabitants. As an ethnic identity (Turkic) and culture (Turkic & local of medieval times) of course, it is another story.

As for Greeks, it is an everyday thing nowadays to detach the achievements of the past and focus on how to achieve things today. Achievements of the past are just good for story telling and common historical memory. Your everyday life depends largely on what you do today. Nor Plato nor Solon can help us now.

Enkidu · Jun 19, 2012

Midas said:
Ah nice! You are studying ancient Greek literature or something?

Only as a hobby.

I am from the neighborhood, that's why. Ruotsalainen & Krekalainen

Ah, gotcha.

macro · Jun 19, 2012

Enkidu said:
Well you interpret later deeds as acts of revenge for ancient wrongdoings at Troy. To be frank, I think you say these things with some agenda in your mind, not necessarily to seek the truth.

For a modern Turk to claim that his ancestors fought at Troy is like a modern Englishman claiming that his ancestors built the Stonehenge. Sure, he may be partly descended from someone who was living there at the time, but the great majority of his ancestors from that time were more than likely living in a different part of Europe (or Asia) altogether.

In the same way, I think it is lame for modern Greeks to take credit for the achievements of an ancient community which has long been gone.

Comparing people from Stone henge and English people is not the same. Although a lot of British associate themselves with people that always live there.

It is the same with Turkish people, they are mostly continuation of the people that lived in Anatolia. They have only a small admixture from central asia. Every nation is different when comparing it to their previous civilisation. I don't think you are in the position to decide what other people feel. And on the other hand not everyhing in this story has to fit to compare wars that happened in west anatolia. It is also symbolic. There is a lot of similarities such as the Greeks wanting to colonize anatolia for the second time. I strongly believe it was Trojan war refought in 21th century , only this time the anatolians won.

Secondly there are a lot of similarities. Such as the Greeks that were far stronger with their alies. The British even called their ship Agememnon. The Greeks did also similar things that they did in Trojan war such as the Burning of Izmir by Greek army.

Yaunâ · Jun 19, 2012

macro said:
Comparing people from Stone henge and English people is not the same. Although a lot of British associate themselves with people that always live there.

It is the same with Turkish people, they are mostly continuation of the people that lived in Anatolia. They have only a small admixture from central asia. Every nation is different when comparing it to their previous civilisation. I don't think you are in the position to decide what other people feel. And on the other hand not everyhing in this story has to fit to compare wars that happened in west anatolia. It is also symbolic. There is a lot of similarities such as the Greeks wanting to colonize anatolia for the second time. I strongly believe it was Trojan war refought in 21th century , only this time the anatolians won.

Secondly there are a lot of similarities. Such as the Greeks that were far stronger with their alies. The British even called their ship Agememnon. The Greeks did also similar things that they did in Trojan war such as the Burning of Izmir by Greek army.

I'm sorry to dissapoint you but these exist only in your phantasy. The Greeks were as natives as the Turks during this period and of course as Anatolians as the Turks were. Also bringing an example like Izmir, where the Greek population outnumbered the Turkish one is fail and tragic (the statement that Greeks burned Izmir is a product of Turkish nationalism so I won't answer).

macro · Jun 19, 2012

Greeks are not natives to Anatolia!

Greeks are native to Greece.

That is why Greeks went back to Greece and Turks in Greece back to Anatolia in population exchange.

Soul of the Trojans would ache at hearing your words.

Yaunâ · Jun 19, 2012

macro said:
Greeks are not natives to Anatolia!

Greeks are native to Greece.

That is why Greeks went back to Greece and Turks in Greece back to Anatolia in population exchange.

Soul of the Trojans would ache at hearing your words.

1) I didn't say that. I said "Greeks are as natives to Anatolia as the Turks are". What didn't you understand?

2) You are not representative of the Trojans.

Midas · Jun 19, 2012

macro said:
Greeks are not natives to Anatolia!

Greeks are native to Greece.

That is why Greeks went back to Greece and Turks in Greece back to Anatolia in population exchange.

Soul of the Trojans would ache at hearing your words.

You're in your own world macro...really...Hypocrisy in its best.

What about all those Anatolians that were Hellenized, whose descendants live now in Greece? Do you want a demo of how many native Anatolian words exist in the Cappadocian Greek language? The Greeks who were a product of Hellenization in Anatolia during Alexanders time and even earlier, were 100% natives to the lands. Many Pontian Greeks and Laz are people related to the Kashkas for example... people you have probably never heard of, although their lands are in your country (and I know you will Google their name now).

And yes, you are not representing the Trojans here macro. Their names were not Mesut nor Hamit.

Midas · Jun 19, 2012

Enkidu said:
Only as a hobby.

Respect!

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