Joined Oct 2007
8,433 Posts | 0+
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
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You should apologize first for this:
You're talking funny, man. Better slow down on the coca drinks.
Joined Jun 2006
10,363 Posts | 32+
U.K.
I am against any tyrany: white (aristhocracy) blue(imperialism), red(comunism) or green.
I am a democrat, fully. And I think monarchy is the esence of tyranny.
Yes, I agree modern monarchies are just expensive toys that countries use to keep traditions, but they were real monarchies at the times when the United States was created and founded as the first democracy in the modern world. The second was France, and that was the first in Europe. Britain has no role in the development of modern democracy. For that you has to get rid of the kings first.
Joined Oct 2007
8,433 Posts | 0+
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
I didn't attack you person, only your strange "funny" post, IMO. I did not call you a name. You yourself earlier spoke of coca drinks. That is not an insult, it is a joke.
Calling a 56 year old man a "young immature person" shows lack of any regard for the person and does not address the post.
Calling a 56 year old man a "young immature person" shows lack of any regard for the person and does not address the post.
Joined Oct 2007
8,433 Posts | 0+
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
I apologize if I have caused "loss of face" for pingy because I thought a post sounded "funny" the way he wrote it. My purpose was not to insult, but to register surprise and inject some humor. I'm sorry it was taken wrongly.
Joined Oct 2007
8,433 Posts | 0+
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
Let's continue then on the topic.
I don't find the U.S. political system is an heritage of England, but more an heritage of the European revolutionary thinking of the time; particularly freemasonry.
I don't find the U.S. political system is an heritage of England, but more an heritage of the European revolutionary thinking of the time; particularly freemasonry.
Joined Jan 2009
3,333 Posts | 4+
Minneapolis, MN
It would seem to me that we would have to start with the fundamental difference between English/English Commonwealth/United States law based on Common Law as opposed to other European Countries based on Civil Law. The very basics of American law and politics are from England, not the rest of European Enlightenment.
In philosophy and genetics, the founders and writers of our constitution were the descendants of the English. Yes, they drew ideas from other sources, most notably their interpretation of Montesquieus description of "Separation of Powers." But the most basic fundamentals all harken back to English Common Law and "Ye Auncient Constitution."
Sorry Pinquin...
But the treatise smacks of racism.
well, if by smacking I mean it is nothing but a racist manifesto trying to rewrite history to give more credit than is due to a particular group who, Frankly, literally had the world in their hands and ended up NOT being the culture that dominates the modern world.
Spain had the new world, dominated the Old World thru its stolen wealth, and STILL ended up producing the most inefficient and unstable post colonial states on earth.
I could just as easily claim that everything your cited author credits Spain with was even more true of and due to the actions of the Native Americans...
But that would all be specious racial nonsense.
It has nothing to do with the native, nothing to do with the Spanish...
It has to do with cultural ideas that turned out to be BETTER, more productive and more compatible with a less corrupt social order.
Yes the Spanish had a foothold in florida, and had Texas, New mexico and California...
So what? they LOST those territories and the folks who took them away were not embracing of nor promoting a Spanish cultural ethos.
The Culture that ended up dominating the world was the culture that came out of the Freemason's revolt, the Magna Carta, the Scottish Enlightenment and, most recently, the influence on british colonists of Northern Native American ideas of personal freedom and society without aristocracy.
Those are the ideas that other nations have embraced even without having to be conquered and have it shoved down their throats.
The uniquely British idea of maximum personal freedom COUPLED with maximum personal responsibility.
Once more... it is not an accident that dozens of former Spanish Colonies have had such a long history of poverty, mistreatment of natives, inequality of wealth and opportunity, graft and political corruption.
While former British colonies all seem to be the places you can travel to and not worry about bringing enough bribe money.
Cultural evolution follows Darwinian selection. It is not an accident that English is the most common second language.. Not an accident that those other nations, like Japan, Like China, that willingly adopt western ideas, suddenly begin to flourish.
No accident that businessmen the world over dress like American businessmen.
No accident that Spain, who started out WAY out in front of every other colonial power, is not a world power, and their former colonies, not seen as first world nations.
It has nothing to do with skin color, nor even nationality... it has to do with Ideas. Better ideas will out-compete worse ideas.
Period.
It doesn't stop here... The USA will not last forever... it will be supplanted by some other nation that has an even better set of ideas...
But the treatise smacks of racism.
well, if by smacking I mean it is nothing but a racist manifesto trying to rewrite history to give more credit than is due to a particular group who, Frankly, literally had the world in their hands and ended up NOT being the culture that dominates the modern world.
Spain had the new world, dominated the Old World thru its stolen wealth, and STILL ended up producing the most inefficient and unstable post colonial states on earth.
I could just as easily claim that everything your cited author credits Spain with was even more true of and due to the actions of the Native Americans...
But that would all be specious racial nonsense.
It has nothing to do with the native, nothing to do with the Spanish...
It has to do with cultural ideas that turned out to be BETTER, more productive and more compatible with a less corrupt social order.
Yes the Spanish had a foothold in florida, and had Texas, New mexico and California...
So what? they LOST those territories and the folks who took them away were not embracing of nor promoting a Spanish cultural ethos.
The Culture that ended up dominating the world was the culture that came out of the Freemason's revolt, the Magna Carta, the Scottish Enlightenment and, most recently, the influence on british colonists of Northern Native American ideas of personal freedom and society without aristocracy.
Those are the ideas that other nations have embraced even without having to be conquered and have it shoved down their throats.
The uniquely British idea of maximum personal freedom COUPLED with maximum personal responsibility.
Once more... it is not an accident that dozens of former Spanish Colonies have had such a long history of poverty, mistreatment of natives, inequality of wealth and opportunity, graft and political corruption.
While former British colonies all seem to be the places you can travel to and not worry about bringing enough bribe money.
Cultural evolution follows Darwinian selection. It is not an accident that English is the most common second language.. Not an accident that those other nations, like Japan, Like China, that willingly adopt western ideas, suddenly begin to flourish.
No accident that businessmen the world over dress like American businessmen.
No accident that Spain, who started out WAY out in front of every other colonial power, is not a world power, and their former colonies, not seen as first world nations.
It has nothing to do with skin color, nor even nationality... it has to do with Ideas. Better ideas will out-compete worse ideas.
Period.
It doesn't stop here... The USA will not last forever... it will be supplanted by some other nation that has an even better set of ideas...
Yes. I agree with you. It seems there is some racism going on in here, somehow
It may be, but we -the descendants of those colonial times- are still here, and are not going to disapear easily. Even more, our influence will only grow with time.
Hispanics usually don't deny the merits to whom they deserved it. Nobody would deny Isaac Newton invented calculus, for instance.
After the economical crisis of the present, the endless tragic-comic comedy of the CIA, and so many "small problems" that are well known, are you sure you are really talking about a less corrupt social order?
Yes, they lost theirs territories. Now they are recovering them. You know, history comes and goes.
I agree with you in that the ideas come from the Freemason revolt. However, from the Magna Carta? A piece of paper where the "free men" were the coded word to describe the feudal lords? Come on, England wasn't an example of democracy at all. Look as its people was treated during the industrial revolution and how its own peasants died of hunger while the Empire flourished.
If the Americans broke with England was to make something better; not to copy a disastrous society.
British idea of personal freedom? From a nation that enrich itself with slavery? From a nation that exploited children in the manufacturing plants? Give me a break. Nope, you can trace those ideas to Freemasonry, and even to the Christian Churches of all kind. Nope to the English state.
Ask the Blacks of the guettos and the natives of the reserves if theirs share your ideas of the glory of the British colonies. Most natives won't complain, though, because they were exterminated.
With respect to corruption, you really are blind, aren't you?
English has been impossed because economical power, only. Not because is a magnific language at all.
Sure. The modern clothes were all invented in the United States.
Nothing stop us to come back. Fourty years ago, the former British colonies were 20 times richer than Latin America. Today they only 3 times richer per capita. If you continue growing at turtle speed we will catch you up. So, don't be so sure you will be so developed forever.
Ideas that are used all over the world, and that don't come from Britain only.
By 2050, the U.S.A. won't be an anglosaxon nation anymore. There will be the chance to make a better nation, that's for sure. Who knows? Perhaps it won't be necesary to switch the center of the world somewhere else, but it is necesary to change the country that controls it all, from the inside.
Joined Oct 2007
8,433 Posts | 0+
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
Nope sir. At least you consider Britain a "democracy"
Actually Britain is more of a democracy (and for a longer time) than Chile ever was.
Joined Jun 2006
10,363 Posts | 32+
U.K.
I suspect pinguin is an exponent of the "White Legend", started by Franco and summed up in Wikipedia as,
"Versions of history less hostile to Spain including the white legend argue that the conquest of the Americas was not as negative as it is sometimes intentionally portrayed. The White Legend emphasizes that Cortés's army consisted largely of Native American enemies of the Aztec Empire, and credits accounts of Aztec human sacrifice and cannibalism. Some historians claim that the demographics of much of Latin America today contradict claims that Spain destroyed or suppresses native populations and cultures. Furthermore, the demographic collapse which occurred in the Americas upon the conquest was mainly due to diseases imported from Europe which would have been transmitted even if the English or French, rather than the Spaniards, had been the first to arrive into the Americas.
The White Legend also emphasizes the role of other European nations in the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The defenders of this point of view argue that Spain was prohibited by the Pope from taking part in such activities, together with the fact it would be in breach of the Treaty of Tordesillas, which divided the world outside of Europe in an exclusive duopoly between the Spanish and the Portuguese, assigning Africa to Portugal.
Critics of The White Legend counter that it downplays the Spanish role as purchasers and users of slaves in the Americas in the Atlantic slave trade, the treatment of indigenous peoples of the Americas, and the taking of resources from New Spain during the period known as the Spanish Golden Age. They also point out that much of the treatment of indigenous peoples and the disruption of their culture was documented by Hernán Cortés's and Francisco Pizarro's own men, who had no reason to soil the reputation of the Spanish empire by creating false charges of cruelty. Critics have also claimed that the conquistadores were likely to exaggerate their accounts of barbaric rituals performed by the indigenous people in order to justify their actions."
"Versions of history less hostile to Spain including the white legend argue that the conquest of the Americas was not as negative as it is sometimes intentionally portrayed. The White Legend emphasizes that Cortés's army consisted largely of Native American enemies of the Aztec Empire, and credits accounts of Aztec human sacrifice and cannibalism. Some historians claim that the demographics of much of Latin America today contradict claims that Spain destroyed or suppresses native populations and cultures. Furthermore, the demographic collapse which occurred in the Americas upon the conquest was mainly due to diseases imported from Europe which would have been transmitted even if the English or French, rather than the Spaniards, had been the first to arrive into the Americas.
The White Legend also emphasizes the role of other European nations in the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The defenders of this point of view argue that Spain was prohibited by the Pope from taking part in such activities, together with the fact it would be in breach of the Treaty of Tordesillas, which divided the world outside of Europe in an exclusive duopoly between the Spanish and the Portuguese, assigning Africa to Portugal.
Critics of The White Legend counter that it downplays the Spanish role as purchasers and users of slaves in the Americas in the Atlantic slave trade, the treatment of indigenous peoples of the Americas, and the taking of resources from New Spain during the period known as the Spanish Golden Age. They also point out that much of the treatment of indigenous peoples and the disruption of their culture was documented by Hernán Cortés's and Francisco Pizarro's own men, who had no reason to soil the reputation of the Spanish empire by creating false charges of cruelty. Critics have also claimed that the conquistadores were likely to exaggerate their accounts of barbaric rituals performed by the indigenous people in order to justify their actions."
Joined Jan 2009
3,333 Posts | 4+
Minneapolis, MN
It is true that a big part of our cultural heritage in the Southwest came from Mexico. It should not be assumed that we weren't presented that aspect in our schools. However, the English part of our heritage in the United States is far more important than the Spanish.
When I was growing up in Southern California, one of the bigger historical points near my home was the Pio Pico Mansion. There were also the bells along El Camino Real (though most had disappeared by the late 50's). There were the missions strung from San Diego Rey de Espana all the way to San Francisco de Asis. There was a 100+ year old woman in our parish who had been born in California when it was part of Mexico. (I'm sorry she never spoke to our class, but she was over 100 years old.) We did study our hispanic heritage.
At the same time, many of the kids in my class referred to the hispanic students as "pachucos" and didn't like them or were a little afraid of them. Either that or they were themselves hispanic. So much of the accusation of racism is justified.
There has been a flare-up of that racism here in the last few years. One factor has been the flood of illegal immigration during the boom years. That has let up considerably with the recent buts. Another factor is simply that the bigots needed a new issue when it became increasingly unacceptable for people to attack blacks. But the flood of immigrants from Somalia and Ethiopia have brought that back into the fore IMO.
IMHO, there will always be racism just because a part of our social instinct as humans makes us try to be like everyone else from young childhood and makes us resent those who are a little different. Even baboons reject other baboons from another pack that comes into their territory.
But as to the article posted, I think it overstates the case to make a point.
EDIT: As an afterthought, we didn't call the hispanic kids in our class "hispanic." We called them "Mexican."
When I was growing up in Southern California, one of the bigger historical points near my home was the Pio Pico Mansion. There were also the bells along El Camino Real (though most had disappeared by the late 50's). There were the missions strung from San Diego Rey de Espana all the way to San Francisco de Asis. There was a 100+ year old woman in our parish who had been born in California when it was part of Mexico. (I'm sorry she never spoke to our class, but she was over 100 years old.) We did study our hispanic heritage.
At the same time, many of the kids in my class referred to the hispanic students as "pachucos" and didn't like them or were a little afraid of them. Either that or they were themselves hispanic. So much of the accusation of racism is justified.
There has been a flare-up of that racism here in the last few years. One factor has been the flood of illegal immigration during the boom years. That has let up considerably with the recent buts. Another factor is simply that the bigots needed a new issue when it became increasingly unacceptable for people to attack blacks. But the flood of immigrants from Somalia and Ethiopia have brought that back into the fore IMO.
IMHO, there will always be racism just because a part of our social instinct as humans makes us try to be like everyone else from young childhood and makes us resent those who are a little different. Even baboons reject other baboons from another pack that comes into their territory.
But as to the article posted, I think it overstates the case to make a point.
EDIT: As an afterthought, we didn't call the hispanic kids in our class "hispanic." We called them "Mexican."
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