Carthageneses troops against the Romans

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I agree he is on shaky ground comparing it to an army many centuries later, but I believe he's certainly considered the context on his thoughts on Hannibal's army size before and after the winter break, and questioning just what Hanno was supposed to achieve with 10,000 men being left behind with the baggage. Perhaps he was meant to return to the Ebro? Who knows, these are speculations. Most of Gabriel's work follows the ancient and modern sources, so its not a bad book on the subject.


Sorry, i'm not sure what you mean by all the voices 15% line...
 
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I was supposing that the the army that Hannibal moved to Italy could not be of 90000 but around 75000. Just a supposition about the actual army size.

Well, ancient sources have described that Hannibal left behind garrisons (not only in Spain), suffered heavy attritions, needed to fight versus Gauls and versus alpine peoples, needed around 5 months to move from Spain to northern Italy...
Instead he spoke of an army of 100ml... well... not really a source.
 
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We hear of garrisons in Spain, Carthage and of course, Italy, but none in northern Spain (besides Hanno) and Gaul.
 
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The principal column was the right column, and with it was the treasure chest, the cavalry, with baggage, all the other necessities of war and Hannibal himself. This was the critical column, and it was no coincidence that Hannibal was with this column. As long as Hannibal had no ships to keep himself abreast of the exact movements of the Romans, he wanted to be present in person in case the Romans should make a landing in an attempt to attack his army on its ascent or descent through the Pyrenees. This column crossed the Ebro at the town of Edeba, and proceeded directly along the coast through Tarraco, Barcino, Gerunda, Emporiae and Illiberis. Each of those oppidums was taken and garrisoned in turn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal%27s_crossing_of_the_Alps

Based on Dodge, Theodore (1994), Hannibal.
 
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Dodge is speculating, there isn't a mention in the sources. Emporiae sounds like the town where the Scipios landed in northern Spain, a town allied to Marseille and not garrisoned by Carthage. I will have to check my books but am currently at work to make sure about no mentions of garrisons in northern Spain. I'm certain none are mentioned, especially southern Gaul.
 
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Well, I am not sure he is speculating, but if you want defend pyrenees you have to keep the control of the just conquered lands northern Ebro. That is smarter to speculate than a 100-mile column because american brigate etc.
 
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That's just it though, they probably had no plans to hold the Pyrenees. Way too much land, no control of the coast etc. The only significant force beyond the Ebro was Hanno.
 
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Just a few things to add and consider. Emporiae is the town that was allied to Rome and was where the Romans landed in 218 BC, Tarraco is also mentioned as a town garrisoned early by Gnaeus Scipio:

...He punished a few of the ships' captains for neglecting their duty, left a fair-sized garrison at Tarraco, and returned with his fleet to Emporiae (Livy 21.61)


We must also consider this from Hoyos:

... the mere presence of enemy units along the line of communications between Italy and Spain should have aroused Roman concern and some sort of counteraction, but again nothing is heard (Hannibal's Dynasty, pp.109)

We hear of no Roman captures of the garrisoned locations Dodge mentions, or any further campaigns north of the Ebro against Carthage after dealing with Hanno. Which is a little strange if there were many Carthaginian garrisons in this area.
 
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You do know that you've referenced a tertiary source? One, it's a wiki editor's interpretation of what the author said. The author makes a speculation based on the primary source/sources.

My advice? Especially if you wanna seriously debate against people here - do the extra work, go to the primary source (most of it is available online) and check it out for yourself. Sometimes you'll be super surprised what authors concoct that isn't actually supported in the sources :)
 
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That's just it though, they probably had no plans to hold the Pyrenees. Way too much land, no control of the coast etc. The only significant force beyond the Ebro was Hanno.

Yes, Hanno was beyond the Pyrenees in an hostile land just conquered. He needed safe back for: supplies, avoiding to be easily flanked.

But apart this, we can read in Polybius (Histories) several points that underline what I have already said:
But long before he was expected, Hannibal had arrived at the crossing of the Rhone, keeping the Sardinian Sea on his right as he marched, and having made his way through the Celts partly by bribes and partly by force.
Polybius, Histories, book 3, The Consuls Set Out to <a target="_blank" onclick="openPopupWindow(this); return false" href="entityvote?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0001&auth=tgn,1000095&n=1&type=place">Iberia</a> and <a target="_blank" onclick="openPopupW

Then, also to replies to other under-speculations from Gabriel, in the chapter "Absurd Premises of Other Historians"

we can read:
For could a more irrational proceeding on the part of a general be imagined than that of Hannibal, if, when in command of so numerous an army, on whom the success of his expedition entirely depended, he allowed himself to remain in ignorance of the roads, the lie of the country, the route to be taken, and the people to which it led, and above all as to the practicability of what he was undertaking to do? They, in fact, represent Hannibal, when at the height of his expectation of success, doing what those would hardly do who have utterly failed and have been reduced to despair,—that is, to entrust themselves and their forces to an unknown country. And so, too, what they say about the desolation of the district, and its precipitous and inaccessible character, only serves to bring their untrustworthiness into clearer light. For first, they pass over the fact that the Celts of the Rhone valley had on several occasions before Hannibal came, and that in very recent times, crossed the Alps with large forces, and fought battles with the Romans in alliance with the Celts of the valley of the Padus, as I have already stated. And secondly, they are unaware of the fact that a very numerous tribe of people inhabit the Alps. Accordingly in their ignorance of these facts they take refuge in the assertion that a hero showed Hannibal the way. They are, in fact, in the same case as tragedians, who, beginning with an improbable and impossible plot, are obliged to bring in a deus ex machina to solve the difficulty and end the play. The absurd premises of these historians naturally require some such supernatural agency to help them out of the difficulty: an absurd beginning could only have an absurd ending. For of course Hannibal did not act as these writers say he did; but, on the contrary, conducted his plans with the utmost prudence. He had thoroughly informed himself of the fertility of the country into which he designed to descend, and of the hostile feelings of its inhabitants towards Rome; and for his journey through the difficult district which intervened he employed native guides and pioneers, whose interests were bound up with his own. I speak with confidence on these points, because I have questioned persons actually engaged on the facts; and have inspected the country, and gone over the Alpine pass myself, in order to inform myself of the truth and see with my own eyes.

This can be easily used with what written by Gabriel, that infact needs to speak of an absurd column 100ml length and needs to put some numbers taken from a hat and "It is too much!". Without considering a lot of things.

Anyway, other part not considered, he resistence from the Alps native:
Hannibal Harassed By the Natives
[URL="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D50"]http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D50

Having in ten days' march accomplished a distance of eight hundred stades along the river bank, Hannibal began the ascent of the Alps, and immediately found himself involved in the most serious dangers.

Apart all the rest:
Polybius, Histories, book 3, The White Rock
for the advantage of the higher ground being with the enemy, the Gauls moved along the slopes parallel with the army below, and by rolling down boulders, or throwing stones, reduced the troops to a state of the utmost confusion and danger; so that Hannibal with half his force was obliged to pass the night near a certain white rock

In short, he needed to fight in Spain, in France and in the Alps. Apart from the troops sent back and the troops remained in Spain. Obviously there is the attrition... and there were no long columns of supply trucks, nor long columns of ammunitions, or radio systems on trucks. And no reason to have a 100ml column.
 
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Hanno was not beyond the Pyrenees, and over 150 miles from Emporiae when brought to battle at Cissa, many, many miles from the Pyrenees, probably close to Tarraco.
 
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Pardon, my bad. I was thinking beyond the Ebro and I have written beyond Pyrenees. Beyond Pyrenees was a land much less hostile then beyond the Ebro.
 
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No one is ignoring attrition on his army due to attacks on his march from Spain, Gabriel doesn't, only the size of his army, which is something you agree with me on, that it was smaller than what the ancient sources describe.

Hannibal had plenty of pack animals for supplies on his march, it's the attacks on these and their losses that was a major problem and concern during his route through the Alps. Sheen has calculated that for his march from the Pyrenees to the Rhone, he'd have needed many pack animals to meet the armies daily needs:

Daily supply needs of Hannibal's army when consisting of 50,000 infantry and
9,000 cavalry.62
Total Number x Wt. of Ration = Totals
People 80,00063 3 lbs. 240,000
Cavalry horses 9,000 10 lbs. 90,000
Pack-animals 1,600 10 lbs. 16.000
Total 346,000
Total number of pack-animals needed for: One day = 1,821
One week= 18,630
Ten days = 34,600

And around 27,000 for his journey from the Rhone to Italy. Along with his baggage train, of course. These figures assume that it was not necessary for the army to carry water or the additional 10 lbs. of forage each animal required every day. Such a need would only have arisen if the army marched through desert or uncultivated areas... Hannibal usually confined his operations to agricultural regions to meet these daily needs (Sheen, Hannibal's Mules, Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte, Vol. 45, No. 2 (2nd Qtr., 1996), pp.173) . Let's ignore Gabriel's flawed claim comparing it's marching length to a World War 1 army, there were clearly long lines of supplies and baggage which was what drew the Celts to attack the army.

Here's Polybius on one such early attack:

When day broke the natives saw what had taken place, and at first desisted from their attempts; but presently the sight of the immense string of beasts of burden, and of the cavalry, slowly and painfully making the ascent, tempted them to attack the advancing line. Accordingly they fell upon it at many points at once; and the Carthaginians sustained severe losses, not so much at the hands of the enemy, as from the dangerous nature of the ground, which proved especially fatal to the horses and beasts of burden. For as the ascent was not only narrow and rough, but flanked also with precipices, at every movement which tended to throw the line into disorder, large numbers of the beasts of burden were hurled down the precipices with their loads on their backs. And what added more than anything else to this sort of confusion were the wounded horses; for, maddened by their wounds, they either turned round and ran into the advancing beasts of burden, or, rushing furiously forward, dashed aside everything that came in their way on the narrow path, and so threw the whole line into disorder. Hannibal saw what was taking place, and knowing that, even if they escaped this attack, they could never survive the loss of all their baggage, he took with him the men who had seized the strongholds during the night and went to the relief of the advancing line. (Polybius, 3,51).
 
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I would say that Polybius explain quite well that Hannibal had good relations to provide supplies and the place where they moved were not a problem from this point of view.

If we want to shock with number, we can also say that the numbers are impressive even if we want to divide all for 10. Assume that Hannibal moved from Spain with 5000 and 900 and not with 50000 and 9000, we have: ten days = 3,460!!! how can be possible for old fashion tribes to have all that pack-animals? It is not possible. So, the only explaination is that Hannibal did not exist at all.

I exaggerated on purpose, but the concept is that. Do you think plausible that Hannibal's army after Pyrenees was around 50000+9000 (+/-) 15%?
 
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Yes, I do think it's plausible. I tend to think its smaller at this point, but I'm honestly also happy to take it at that figure. The majority of modern works follows those figures. Even Gabriel does for the most part after his speculations before beginning his account of the march.

Heck, Hannibal could have been such a cunning bastard that the figures reported as the start of his march from New Carthage could be correct, and that he spent months purposefully wasting the manpower of troublesome tribes in Carthaginian territory north of the Ebro to reduce the potential numbers of rebellions when he finally left Spain, haha!
 
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Well, I think that ancient sources are not so bad on these figures. They are obviously approximation, but they are a really good point to start.
 

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