dating historical Crucifixion of Jesus ?

Widdekind · Jun 16, 2013

Numerous early Church fathers -- e.g. Tertullian c.200 AD, Lactantius c.300 AD, Augustine c.400 AD, dated the Crucifixion, to Roman year 783 Ab Urbe Condita = 30 AD.

Eusebius c.300 AD & Jerome c.400 AD dated the Crucifixion to the 19th / 18th year of Tiberias.

The Gospel of Luke dates the beginning of John the Baptist's ministry, to the 15th year of Tiberias = Crucifixion - 3/4 years = 26/27 AD = Sejanus installed Pilate as prefect of Judea

Sejanus was an "anti-Semite" (for want of other words), according to Philo & Josephus. And, Sejanus' prefect was highly hostile to Jews, trying to impose pagan Roman standards into their temple.

Parsimoniously, John the Baptist began his ministry, within a year of Pilate's installation, as a non-violent civil resistance, to Roman rule:

stimulus = Sejanus + Pilate
response = John the Baptist + Jesus the Christ

Per all Church tradition, Jesus ministered for +3 years = 30 AD Crucifixion, perhaps a year after John had been beheaded, both attempts to quash the "Gandhi-like" non-violent resistance movement.

Most other Jews wound up choosing violent resistance to Rome -- perhaps influenced by the patronage of Jerusalem's temple Priests, who seem to have bought their loyalty (Matt 27:20), away from the non-violent resistance movement -- giving Rome pretext to destroy them.

NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

According to the Chronicle of Eusebius (ed. Schoene, II. p. 116) the Edessenes dated their era from the year of Abraham 1706 (b.c. 310), which corresponded with the second year of the one hundred and seventeenth Olympiad (or, according to the Armenian, to the third year of the same Olympiad), the time when Seleucus Nicanor began to rule in Syria. According to this reckoning the 340th year of the Edessenes would correspond with the year of Abraham 2046, the reign of Tiberius 16 (a.d.30); that is, the second year of the two hundred and second Olympiad (or, according to the Armenian, the third year of the same). According to theChronicle of Eusebius, Jesus was crucified in the nineteenth year of Tiberius (year of Abraham 2048 = a.d. 32), according to Jerome’s version in the eighteenth year (year of Abraham 2047 = a.d. 31). Thus, as compared with these authorities, the 340th year of the Edessenes falls too early. But Tertullian, Lactantius, Augustine, and others put Christ’s death in 783 U.C., that is in 30 a.d., and this corresponds with the Edessene reckoning as given by Eusebius.

AlpinLuke · Jun 16, 2013

Herod, Pilate and Caifa were on the same scene from about 26 to around 36.

So the comparison of the period "in the office" of these 3 personages doesn't help that much.

Luke 3,23 tells us that Jesus was around 30 when he begun his ministry.

23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Since considerations about censuses in that Roman province put the birth of Jesus between 7 and 4 BCE, we can think [with the doubtful value of the indication of the Gospel which is nor accurate neither historically valid, the Gospel were theological texts, not historical chronicles] that Jesus begun to preach from 23 to 26, but the indications about historical reference tell us [as already mentioned] that probably Jesus was older than 30 when he started his mission.

Generally it's accepted to put the 15th year mentioned by Luke between 26 and 29.

This would mean that Jesus died between 29 and 32.

Widdekind · Jun 16, 2013

seemingly around the Mediterranean region, the ministries of JB + JC occurred, as many eclipses were occurring. i perceive, that people no longer recognize, that the 1st century AD, seems to have harbored, many many eclipses in heaven, and a "storm" of earthquakes on earth, easily interpretable, as the faults of the region "unzipping", as is known to occur. For the Superstitious, the 1st century AD would have seemed an ominous time, with the earth quaking, and the sky darkening:

July 22, 27 AD
November 24, 29 AD
November 3, 31 AD
March 19, 33 AD
Friday April 3 33AD

August 1, 45 AD

30 April, 59 AD -- Plinius' Eclipse
"Then the sun was suddenly darkened and the fourteen districts of the city were struck by lightning"
- The Annals

20 Mar, 71 AD -- Plutarch's Eclipse

'Now, grant me that nothing that happens to the sun is so like its setting as a solar eclipse. You will, if you call to mind this conjunction recently which, beginning just after noonday, made many stars shine out from many parts of the sky and tempered the air in the manner of twilight. If you do not recall it, Theon here will cite us Mimnermus and Cydias and Archilochus and Stesichorus besides and Pindar, who during eclipses bewail "the brightest star bereft" and "at midday night falling" and say that the beam of the sun" (is sped) the path of shade" '.
- "De facie in orbe lunae (On the face on the moon)" in Plutarch's Moralia XII by Plutarch

NASA - Solar Eclipses of History
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_eclipse]Crucifixion darkness and eclipse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Barbarossa · Jun 16, 2013

Most of what I read refers to Jesus' year of birth being 4 BCE and year of death 30 CE.
If Jesus died on Passover day then his exact date of crucifixion would be 8th of April, 30.

tomar · Jun 16, 2013

Why is this in the history forum ?

By Jesus I assume you mean the person who is purported to have transferred demons from a man into 2000 pigs which subsequently drowned, walked on water and turned water into wine.

Please bring forth any historical evidence of the existence of said Jesus.... Then bring forth any historical evidence of his crucifixion...

If you cannot then this topic has no place here. we may as well discuss what year Cinderella went to the prince's ball or the the astral coordinates of planet Krypton.

Belgarion · Jun 16, 2013

tomar said:
Why is this in the history forum ?

By Jesus I assume you mean the person who is purported to have transferred demons from a man into 2000 pigs which subsequently drowned, walked on water and turned water into wine.

Please bring forth any historical evidence of the existence of said Jesus.... Then bring forth any historical evidence of his crucifixion...

If you cannot then this topic has no place here. we may as well discuss what year Cinderella went to the prince's ball or the the astral coordinates of planet Krypton.

Jesus is mentioned by the Roman historian Tacitus writing less than 100 years after his execution and by the Jewish soldier and scholar Josephus about 60 years after, although Josephus may be a less reliable source.

These sources establish Jesus as an historical figure and thus subject to debate in this forum.

tomar · Jun 16, 2013

Belgarion said:
Jesus is mentioned by the Roman historian Tacitus writing less than 100 years after his execution and by the Jewish soldier and scholar Josephus about 60 years after, although Josephus may be a less reliable source.

These sources establish Jesus as an historical figure and thus subject to debate in this forum.

Less than 100 years, wow, that was some fast writing !

I mean this guy walks on water, multiplies bread and wine and fish, cures the blind and the lepers comes back from the dead and it takes100 years for someone to make a small note of it. Talk about a tough audience, what does it take to get noticed ?

In any case those Tacitus and Josephus "quotes" have been thoroughly debunked so its not clear what they keep being brought up and why people keep bringing up "Jesus" in the history forum whereas there is a religion forum to discuss this topic..

AlpinLuke · Jun 16, 2013

Barbarossa said:
Most of what I read refers to Jesus' year of birth being 4 BCE and year of death 30 CE.
If Jesus died on Passover day then his exact date of crucifixion would be 8th of April, 30.

It's a god date, even if I find that 4 BCE a bit late. I tend to give more credit to 7 or 6 BCE, but anyway it's acceptable.

About death, 30 CE is in a very good position. It's the most probable.

But, as someone else has pointed out, historical reality is quite far from being confirmed by archaeological / historical investigation.

Belgarion · Jun 16, 2013

tomar said:
Less than 100 years, wow, that was some fast writing !

I mean this guy walks on water, multiplies bread and wine and fish, cures the blind and the lepers comes back from the dead and it takes100 years for someone to make a small note of it. Talk about a tough audience, what does it take to get noticed ?

In any case those Tacitus and Josephus "quotes" have been thoroughly debunked so its not clear what they keep being brought up and why people keep bringing up "Jesus" in the history forum whereas there is a religion forum to discuss this topic..

I shall try to explain this to you.....The OP was discussing the historical date of the execution of Jesus, no mention made of his divinity or otherwise. You seem to be a rather rabid atheist, intent on discussing and disparaging the miracles attributed to Jesus rather than sticking to the topic.

Earl of Mountain View · Jun 16, 2013

Science also has offered insight as reported by the noted historian Phelgon. As evidenced by the following extract.

In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (i.e., AD 33) there was ‘the greatest eclipse of the sun’ and that ‘it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.’
- Phlegon, 137 AD

Possibly a reference to Matthews report.

More along these lines can be analysed at; and extract courtesy of The Catholic Knight: Exact Date of Christ's Crucifixion

tomar · Jun 16, 2013

Belgarion said:
I shall try to explain this to you.....The OP was discussing the historical date of the execution of Jesus, no mention made of his divinity or otherwise. You seem to be a rather rabid atheist, intent on discussing and disparaging the miracles attributed to Jesus rather than sticking to the topic.

There is no "historical date of the execution of Jesus" no more than there is a historical Jesus corresponding to the NT texts nor a historical Cinderella whatever you and others may wish to believe. Since the existence of Jesus and his miracles is a matter of faith the proper place to discuss that is the religion forum. Any theological texts may be discussed there as well.

Please stop pretending that religious/theological writings equate historical fact and kindly keep your accusations of rabidness to yourself.

Moros · Jun 16, 2013

The existence of Jesus is not a matter of faith. It is a matter for historical research - one in which many scholars do conclude that Jesus existed (you need to read up on this). Since he lived he must have been born and must have died, and these dates are a proper area of research. Many other details of his life (miracles, teachings, etc) are indeed largely a matter of faith. This thread is not examining those.

You also need to read up on Cinderella, for her story has been traced back to an account concerning a Greek woman called Rhodopis, who, whilst the slipper element might be a fabrication, she herself existed in the 6th Century BC (mentioned in Herodotus, and in Sappho (but no longer extant), and in later writers).http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/cinderella/stories/rhodopis.html

dreamregent · Jun 16, 2013

Earl of Mountain View said:
Science also has offered insight as reported by the noted historian Phelgon. As evidenced by the following extract.

In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (i.e., AD 33) there was ‘the greatest eclipse of the sun’ and that ‘it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.’
- Phlegon, 137 AD

Possibly a reference to Matthews report.

More along these lines can be analysed at; and extract courtesy of The Catholic Knight: Exact Date of Christ's Crucifixion

The only problem: Either the year is wrong or the report of the eclipse is a lie. The only possible matching eclipse within this period would be 29 BC. The eclipse of 33 BC would not have been visible in Israel at all...it was too far south. In fact, the center of it was down by Antarctica. The eclipse in 29 BC would not have been total in Israel but it would have been near-total. There is no other eclipse of the time period that would work. So, either pick the eclipse or the year but it doesn't look like you can have both.

Mike McClure · Jun 16, 2013

November 24, 29 AD? but when was Passover in 29.

dreamregent · Jun 16, 2013

Mike McClure said:
November 24, 29 AD? but when was Passover in 29.

Passover was always in the spring... I guess that's another difficulty...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

Earl of Mountain View · Jun 16, 2013

dream regent said:
The only problem: Either the year is wrong or the report of the eclipse is a lie. The only possible matching eclipse within this period would be 29 BC. The eclipse of 33 BC would not have been visible in Israel at all...it was too far south. In fact, the center of it was down by Antarctica. The eclipse in 29 BC would not have been total in Israel but it would have been near-total. There is no other eclipse of the time period that would work. So, either pick the eclipse or the year but it doesn't look like you can have both.

Interesting. Thanks for the feedback.

dreamregent · Jun 16, 2013

There was a partial eclipse on 4/28/32 but it probably wasn't noticed in Israel as it would have been very slight there.

DENIS · Jun 16, 2013

tomar said:
Less than 100 years, wow, that was some fast writing !

I mean this guy walks on water, multiplies bread and wine and fish, cures the blind and the lepers comes back from the dead and it takes100 years for someone to make a small note of it. Talk about a tough audience, what does it take to get noticed ?

In any case those Tacitus and Josephus "quotes" have been thoroughly debunked so its not clear what they keep being brought up and why people keep bringing up "Jesus" in the history forum whereas there is a religion forum to discuss this topic..

This thread does not belong in the religion forum because, apart from yourself, no one has as much as mentioned the word religion. This thread is about the historical Jesus, of course it belongs here.

Davidius · Jun 16, 2013

tomar said:
Please stop pretending that religious/theological writings equate historical fact and kindly keep your accusations of rabidness to yourself.

If you don't like the content of the thread then feel free to go elsewhere, it's a big forum with room for everyone.
And if you don't want to be accused of rabidness perhaps you should try being a bit less, well, rabid.

Widdekind · Jun 16, 2013

John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ (so called), were actual, historical, leaders, of a non-violent resistance movement to Rome, in first century AD Judaea. They were as historical, as Vercingetorix, Arminius, and John of Giscala & Simon bar kochba (so called).

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the solar eclipse of Phlegon could not have occurred, at a Jewish Passover, because PO occurs, near a full moon, when the moon is on the "wrong / other" side of earth.

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