Does the high crime rate of South Africa vindicate Apartheid?

Joined Jun 2012
6,680 Posts | 786+
Texas
The common justification of the National Party for keeping blacks segregated from whites, was that to allow blacks to live freely among whites (as well as East Asians who were generally treated as whites, especially in later years) was far too dangerous and that really it's just better for everyone if blacks are kept segregated.

At the time these kinds of arguments were dismissed as simply racist and totally unfounded by most people internationally, and yet it seems that post-Apartheid South Africa has seen such a huge increase in violent crime, particularly crime aimed at whites, that it seems the National Party was probably correct in their estimations.

While it's hard to argue that the Apartheid regime wasn't fundamentally racist, it's also undeniable that the National Party's policies kept crime far more under control than the current ANC government does, and that their policies were far more effective than anything implemented in post-Apartheid South Africa.

While I don't disagree that Apartheid was undoubtedly a racist policy, equally I think the huge crime rate of post-Apartheid South Africa has vindicated the policy of Apartheid in as much as it as proved that the National Party's fears weren't just based simply on racial hatred, but on a very real fear that has become a reality in post-Apartheid South Africa.

However, it seems in reality the argument that Apartheid was justifiable on some level because of the high crime rate in South Africa now gets pretty short shrift from most people.

Most people take the view that it's far better to live in a dangerous society that is free than a safe society that is oppressive, and I guess the question of whether post-Apartheid South Africa is a success comes down to that really.

To support your argument, you need to show the crime statistics for similar crimes for several years before apartheid ended, through now. Otherwise its just a statement not supported by facts in evidence.
 
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
To support your argument, you need to show the crime statistics for similar crimes for several years before apartheid ended, through now. Otherwise its just a statement not supported by facts in evidence.

You can read my earlier post. It has numbers and crime stats presented in it.
 
Joined Jun 2012
6,680 Posts | 786+
Texas
I'd read it but the occasional internet screaming on it makes it hard to read. Can you restate with more clarity?

Note this is step one only. Step Two would involve-as others have noted-support that the change is what changed crime statistics and not other factors.
 
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
I'd read it but the occasional internet screaming on it makes it hard to read. Can you restate with more clarity?

Note this is step one only. Step Two would involve-as others have noted-support that the change is what changed crime statistics and not other factors.

I thought I was pretty clear... Besides my post was about refuting the OP, not supporting his views at all. And I use stats and numbers to prove it.
 
Joined Jun 2012
6,680 Posts | 786+
Texas
I saw you were making statements to disprove. It would be more helpful in a more easily readable concept.
 
Joined Jan 2009
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Any tips? English is not my first language...

It was fine as far as the language goes. I think zincwarrior was referring to the layout: those huge AT ALL... And I see you just edited them to just caps. Carry on. :)
 
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
It was fine as far as the language goes. I think zincwarrior was referring to the layout: those huge AT ALL... And I see you just edited them to just caps. Carry on. :)

Thanks :)
 
Joined Sep 2013
1,492 Posts | 5+
United States
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No, the crime rate of South Africa does not vindicate Apartheid. Apartheid was a racist system designed to make sure that certain races knew their place. And while yes, a high crime rate is bad, it does not justify a system such as Apartheid. And anyways, I think there is some self-fulfilling prophecy going on here. Obviously there are some racial tensions in South Africa, but forcing people into Apartheid certainly didn't help things and only added fuel to the fire.
 
Joined Jan 2014
62 Posts | 4+
Europa
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I'm not sure how accurate Robto's statistics are, he is claiming that about 6,498 whites have been murdered in South Africa since the end of apartheid, yet if you Google the subject you come across frequent claims of the real number being more like 70,000-80,000 whites murdered since the end of Apartheid.

80,000 sounds very much like an exaggeration of the numbers, yet equally 6,500 sounds way too low, as is often the case I suspect the real figure is probably somewhere in the middle. Also I certainly wouldn't trust statistics published by the highly corrupt ANC government who have a clear racial agenda and play on that for the black vote.

Genocide Watch recognises that the white minority in South Africa is at risk of genocide and has done so for some years. As far as I'm aware Genocide Watch is a respected authority on genocide and not some fringe far-right group with a racially biased agenda.

It doesn't surprise me that the overall murder rate of South Africa hasn't changed much, after all blacks make up the vast majority of the South African population and mostly live in similar conditions now to what they lived in during Apartheid. There's no real reason why the black on black murder rate would have changed that much, and as blacks are the vast majority of the population it is inevitable that black on black murders will make up the vast majority of the murders in terms of sheer numbers.

However, I think it is clear that the murder rate of whites has increased massively since the end of Apartheid. During Apartheid the vast majority of violent crime was forcibly kept confined to the black townships, and as robto points out in a rather biased way, didn't affect white people. However, Apartheid coming to an end has resulted in whites becoming a viciously targeted minority, and if unofficial estimates are to be believed whites are targeted at a far higher rate than the population as a whole.

Also the idea that Apartheid is the cause of the extremely violent culture of blacks in South Africa is frankly utter nonsense as well. Just look at the murder rates for African countries as a whole, they are very comparable to South Africa, almost all Sub-Saharan African countries have murder rates vastly higher than Europe, North America and Asia.

Many people here seem to take the view that Apartheid protecting whites from violent crime is utterly unacceptable, and that there is nothing wrong with a country having a high violent crime rate just so long as the whole of the population is forced to experience the same reality. That view just goes to confirm that multiracial societies are utterly unworkable in the long term, especially multiracial societies of the nature of South Africa.
 
Joined Aug 2014
1,326 Posts | 110+
Portugal
if unofficial estimates are to be believed whites are targeted at a far higher rate than the population as a whole.

How unofficial are the estimates? I think blacks target far more blacks than whites in SA. Yet the killing of farmers (and the political influence and incitement to crime) is worrying.

Also the idea that Apartheid is the cause of the extremely violent culture of blacks in South Africa is frankly utter nonsense as well. Just look at the murder rates for African countries as a whole, they are very comparable to South Africa, almost all Sub-Saharan African countries have murder rates vastly higher than Europe, North America and Asia.

There are often sociological origins to crime. What is the recent history of Africa? Colonialism, brutal inequality, racism, anti-colonialism wars, decolonization, civil wars and kleptocracies. There are other Colonial/Post Colonial societies in South America. Also rating high in criminality.

Extreme inequality, poverty and social exclusion (with or without a South African style apartheid) often begets violent crime. This is true in Africa as well as in Europe.


That view just goes to confirm that multiracial societies are utterly unworkable in the long term

What is the "long term"? 500 years? Some "multiracial" societies formed in 1500's were still alive in the 20th century. But there are older examples.

Some "monoracial" societies collapsed without foreign intervention.

If multiracial societies are "utterly unworkable", multiracial companies are doomed to fail, multiracial armies and football teams perform worse and all multiracial marriages will eventually end in divorce.
 
Joined Apr 2010
6,329 Posts | 6+
US
how about the high crime rate of South Africa is caused by Apartheid. extreme authorial states deform society and did not prepare for a well functioning society, the breakup of Yugoslavia, Syria, Iraq. the problems in south afirca are a product of south africa's past.

Bingo Bango.
 
Joined Jun 2013
746 Posts | 14+
Agraphur
how about the high crime rate of South Africa is caused by Apartheid. extreme authorial states deform society and did not prepare for a well functioning society, the breakup of Yugoslavia, Syria, Iraq. the problems in south afirca are a product of south africa's past.

Or how about it being the other way around. Multicultural multiethnic states gravitate towards authoritarian rule because this is the only reliable way to squash conflicts and keep order among groups that have little in common and resent each other.
Democracy works poorly in these places because the majority group are free to democratically exploit and abuse the minorities.
And once the dictator falls, the ethnic and cultural cleansing begins.
 
Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
the vast bulk of history is against that.

authoritarian rule nearly always leads to abuses.
 
Joined Jan 2014
62 Posts | 4+
Europa
The main problem in terms of crime against whites in South Africa seems to be the high rate of farm attacks, of which the majority of farms tend to be owned by Afrikaaners.

It seems that in urban areas, crime against whites is not such a pronounced issue and occurs in proportion to their overall numbers, or perhaps even less than their overall numbers in some cases.

If overall crime rates in South Africa now are no higher than they were during Apartheid, then why has the rate of farm attacks increased significantly? I would guess that Apartheid segregation laws were enforced less rigorously in rural areas than than they were in urban areas, due to practicality, and yet it seems farm attacks weren't considered an issue during Apartheid, this is a problem that has evolved post-Apartheid.

I think the only real explanation for this is racist rhetoric from the ANC and associated groups singling out land owning Afrikaaners as "stealing" the blacks land and implying that they were somehow deserving of being attacked and robbed.

This vicious racist rhetoric against Afrikaaners is a serious issue that doesn't get anywhere near the international media attention it deserves. The ANC's attitude is frankly disgusting and I really don't get why they haven't been taken to task over this.

Genocide Watch has acknowledged that the high level of farm attacks and anti-Afrikaaner rhetoric engaged in by the ANC and other groups could potentially lead to genocide.

What's concerning is racist thugs like Julius Malema and his EFF party appear to be gaining a significant level of support amongst blacks in South Africa. The increase in support for EFF implies that there is a sizeable minority of black South Africans who favour a Zimbabwe type approach to white farmers. Last election EFF won just over 6% of the vote, which is pretty low at the moment, but seems to have the potential to increase significantly.

Hopefully common sense will prevail and the vast majority of black South Africans will reject EFF for the racist trash that they are and regard them in the same light as they regard Apartheid. Racism is no longer tolerated amongst the vast majority of whites, and I think blacks also need to robustly reject racism as well. That's the only way South Africa will progress to being a peaceful and prosperous society in my opinion.
 
Joined Jan 2011
16,917 Posts | 1,879+
For better or worse, Africa is not capable of self-governance; I consider decolonization to be the single greatest crime against humanity perpetrated in the 20th century. And, no, I don't think I'm blowing it out of proportion and am fully aware of the other crimes against humanity that occurred in that century. But billions of people around the world have been condemned to a life of starvation, malnutrition, repression, and poverty because of the selfish policy of decolonization by the European powers who cut Africa and much of the rest of the world loose as soon as it was no longer profitable to retain direct control of them.

Its arguable whether colonization of Africa (with the possible exception of the resource rich and moderate climate blessed south africa) was ever profitable for european powers....

As african population increased, the costs simply soared and maintaining law, order and military control became impossible....

Take the example of the French empire... In 1936 its total population was about 110 mio of which 42 mio french...... or roughly 40%
Nowadays the same set of countries has almost 500 mio people of which 65 million French (though one can argue that that number should really be reduced by 20% to account for immigration from the ex empire) or roughly 13%

The GDP of all ex french african colonies is a mere $560 bio (and 2 countries, Algeria and Morocco make up more than half of that), or less than a quarter of French GDP..... Their imports from France total about $25 bio or less than 5% of French exports....

So its a combination of poor economies and high population which made those colonies unatractive..... But other than prestige, I dont think they were ever profitable (since initially they required rather large capital investments for railroads and such)....
 
Joined Dec 2014
8,941 Posts | 991+
Spain
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SA was a wonderfull and very nice country and now it is a kind of Third World country.. as racist (from the tribes) as before.. but in pure Anarchy. SA is my childhood.. I miss that years.. everything so nice, so beautiful.. I remember when you put money and you took a Coke or another non-alcoholic beverage and not seller... you can take the beverage for free.. but you didn´t by an honesty and moral question.
I think one day Boers ( i dont like word Afrikaner) lose patience and will decided to take the power and restablish the order, the morale and the old nice and beautiful SA back again. But today...it is an awful country (Although I haven´t been there from my childhood).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AgLHQdfWNM
 
Joined Feb 2015
5,251 Posts | 312+
Caribbean
Murder isn't the only crime

Wikipedia:
"The rate of sexual violence in South Africa is among the highest in the world. Sexual violence is the use of force or manipulation to get someone to engage in unwanted sexual activity without his or her consent.[1] An estimated of 500,000 .... cases take place in the country, every year.[2]"
 
Joined Dec 2012
10,944 Posts | 1,064+
here
Something about South Africa I find interesting and perhaps pertinent to the discussion is the the prevalence of private security there.

"The more concerning factor is the high percentage of so-called violent or contact crime, which is about a third of all the crime reported to the South African Police Service."
And that's what has fueled the boom in the country's private security industry, crime experts say. There are nearly 9,000 companies and 400,000 registered active private security guards. That's more than the police and army combined, according to South African officials.
"The security industry is bigger than what it has ever been in South Africa," says Zinn. "I think the growth in the industry is definitely attributed to the fact that, let's call it a weak policing or ineffective policing, and it created the opportunity for private individuals to move into the market."


Bigger than the army: South Africa's private security forces - CNN.com
 

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