German/French non Indo european languages

Joined Dec 2014
2,188 Posts | 224+
autobahn
Last edited:
What are the german/ French non IE languages currently in use. The eastern european non IE languages seem to be balto-slavic language family, but I couldn't find much in france/Germany. Why is this and did the romans record any non IE languages here, or even earlier..

Things like river names/place names which sound strange are welcome as well
 
  • Like
Reactions: DanAlquati
Joined Jun 2011
1,910 Posts | 2,676+
What are the german/ French non IE languages currently in use. The eastern european non IE languages seem to be balto-slavic language family, but I couldn't find much in france/Germany. Why is this and did the romans record any non IE languages here, or even earlier..
The Basque language has a small presence in SW France, and used to have a much larger footprint there.
 
Joined Dec 2014
2,188 Posts | 224+
autobahn
The Basque language has a small presence in SW France, and used to have a much larger footprint there.
Anything else? Germany seems to be completely devoid of any non IE languages. Do the basque people have any written history ?
 
Joined Jun 2022
3,748 Posts | 1,350+
Norway
What names are you looking for? Its like asking if irish people have history. If you Google basque history im sure you find some. Other then that im sorry to tell you that im no expert on this particular ethnic group.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LatinoEuropa
Joined Dec 2014
2,188 Posts | 224+
autobahn
What names are you looking for? Its like asking if irish people have history. If you Google basque history im sure you find some. Other then that im sorry to tell you that im no expert on this particular ethnic group.
I meant non IE speaking people. anything other than basque speakers?
On a side note, any history of the basque people is welcome.
 
Joined May 2021
882 Posts | 562+
Europe
Last edited:
Balto-Slavic languages are Indo- European. Finno-Urgic languages are the non-Indo-Euorpean languages in Eastern Europe, however, they are believed to have entered Europe after the Indo European speakers.

Etruscan is also believed to be a non-Indo European but it is a now-extinct language, the same as Minoan. Both have left written artifacts but have not been deciphered.

Basques have writing going back to the 1st century BC

Hand of Irulegi - Wikipedia

Edit: Apparently Etruscan has been partially deciphered but has some IE loanwords
Etruscan language - Wikipedia
 
Joined Dec 2014
2,188 Posts | 224+
autobahn
Balto-Slavic languages are Indo- European. Finno-Urgic languages are the non-Indo-Euorpean languages in Eastern Europe, however, they are believed to have entered Europe after the Indo European speakers.

Etruscan is also believed to be a non-Indo European but it is a now-extinct language, the same as Minoan. Both have left written artifacts but have not been deciphered.

Basques have writing going back to the 1st century BC

Hand of Irulegi - Wikipedia

Edit: Apparently Etruscan has been partially deciphered but has some IE loanwords
Etruscan language - Wikipedia
Oh, so who were in eastern europe before IE speaking people.
 
Joined Apr 2017
2,939 Posts | 1,484+
U.S.A.
German is believed to have a large amount of non-indoeuropean substrate, possibly left over from a pre german people.


For the rest of europe the only vestiges are the Basques, Finnic peoples and the Caucasus peoples (some of whom may have lived farther north than they do now).
 
Joined Jul 2011
11,340 Posts | 2,849+
German is believed to have a large amount of non-indoeuropean substrate, possibly left over from a pre german people.


For the rest of europe the only vestiges are the Basques, Finnic peoples and the Caucasus peoples (some of whom may have lived farther north than they do now).

Yes, Finnish, Hungarian and Georgian are reasonably major non IE languages.

There aren't clear records, but probably non IE languages were more common 1000 years ago and more common than that 2000 years ago.

Something like 1/3 on the words in proto-Germanic were probably non IE, and hence a large number of non-IE words in German, English, Swedish, etc. Spanish also has a large number of pre-IE words, not counting Arabic words.
 
Joined Jan 2016
1,788 Posts | 344+
Collapsed wave
Oh, so who were in eastern europe before IE speaking people.

There were several cultures of Neolithic farmers google Cucuteni culture, Varna clture, Karanovo culture.
In the north there were still surviving hunter-gatherers like the Narva culture.
 

FLK

Joined Jul 2015
2,339 Posts | 1,505+
United States
Oh, so who were in eastern europe before IE speaking people.
Nobody knows because by the time writing spread to that region of the world, the IE language families were generally already in the locations that we find them. There is no record of the languages which were previously spoken.

We can follow archaeological cultures further back in time, but no one truly knows how archaeological cultures correlate to any of the languages which might feasibly have existed in the area. And archaeological cultures are a different kind of culture than what people usually think of as a human culture… it only refers to a broad set of material artifacts. So an archaeological culture could easily span across numerous unrelated languages, or a single language might encompass several vastly different material cultural sets. There is simply no evidence connecting any languages to archaeology before writing was introduced to these areas.

Linguistically there might be a few inferences that could be made. The Germanic Substrate Hypothesis, for instance observes that there are numerous elements within the Germanic languages which don’t seem to be of IE origin. So it is speculated there must have been non IE speakers must have originally been living in the region were the Germanic languages developed. (Germanic substrate hypothesis - Wikipedia) But it is a highly debated topic.

Also some Finno-Ugric languages in Central Asia, if I recall correctly, have several IE words in their lexicon which would have been borrowed from some Indo-Iranian languages, indicating that there must have been a zone of contact between those two language groups throughout that region. That’s about all I can think of.
 
Joined Aug 2011
6,132 Posts | 1,070+
I meant non IE speaking people. anything other than basque speakers?
On a side note, any history of the basque people is welcome.

The late Larry Trask wrote about Euskara, the language of the Basques, and demonstrated that the pre roman Aquitanian language was a pre cursor of Euskara. Remnants of Aquitanian exist in archaeological artefacts, isolated words embedded in latin funerary inscriptions for example and in the toponymy.

Larry Trask Archive
 
  • Like
Reactions: FLK
Joined Sep 2011
8,999 Posts | 2,990+
Aquitania also overlaps with the French region of Gascony, next to the still properly Basques parts – and Gascon was another language very close to modern Basque, lasting well into historical time. (And the Musketeers from Dumas' novels was from there.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: FLK
Joined May 2020
983 Posts | 854+
Beyond the Upper Sea
What are the german/ French non IE languages currently in use. The eastern european non IE languages seem to be balto-slavic language family, but I couldn't find much in france/Germany. Why is this and did the romans record any non IE languages here, or even earlier..

Things like river names/place names which sound strange are welcome as well
The Slavic language family is an Indo-European family. AFAIK the only non-IE languages indigenous to Europe in 1900 are Basque, Finnish, Hungarian, Hebrew, Turkish, and Arabic.
 
Joined May 2020
983 Posts | 854+
Beyond the Upper Sea
Last edited:
I meant Finno Ugric language family
Given that all the surviving non-IE languages in Europe except Basque entered within the past 2000 years, why would you expect more in Germany or France? (Treating the west end of the Eurasian steppes as not Europe, so Finnish and Hungarian do not count). They are far away from places where large numbers of non-IE speaking immigrants could arrive, and the Roman empire strongly encouraged people to learn one of the big four (Latin, Greek, Punic, or Aramaic). There are hints of a dozen or so non-IE languages such as Lemnian and Etruscan in the Mediterranean before Augustus, but the evidence fades afterwards, because the people who could write and put up monuments mostly wanted to use a language that other powerful people could read.
 

Trending History Discussions

Top