Yes modern Turkey was invaded by Mongoloid Turks from Central Asia in the 11th Century. Which was centuries after the era that is usually described ad roman. And as far as I know the Turks who invaded in the 11th century were the first Mongoloids in Turkey so it should have been even more caucasian in Roman times.
Yes modern Turkey was invaded by Mongoloid Turks from Central Asia in the 11th Century. Which was centuries after the era that is usually described ad roman. And as far as I know the Turks who invaded in the 11th century were the first Mongoloids in Turkey so it should have been even more caucasian in Roman times.
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There isn't much evidence that Romans would consider themselves "white" and certainly would not have called themselves Caucasian.
There are plenty of sculptures of the Roman rulers. They all show Caucasians. Turkish people are overwhelmingly Mid East in origin with a small amount of Turks originating in Central Asia.
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To be fair, they're not the first people to try to apply modern conceptions of race to people of the past.
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Venice
Romans were Caucasian just like Italians, they are Latins wich are indoeuropeans that moved from Northern Europe down to Italy together with other Italic Tribes like Samnites, Oscans etc.
Their look was light skin , many had blue eyes and some were blond and red haired .
There were numerous Rufii, Rubrii and Rutilii, names which refer to red hair. There were also Flavi, Flaviani and Fulvi, which reveals blond hair.
Suetonius, in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars, said that both Augustus and Nero had blond hair and blue eyes, that Galba had blue eyes, whilst Domitian not only had a ruddy complexion, but also composed a poem about an elderly, red-haired Roman that he knew. Suetonius also notes that Nero’s gens were referred to as the Ahenobarbi, (Copper Beards), because his clan continually produced men who had red beards. Finally, we can observe that the name “Caesar”, derives from the Latin word caesius, which means “blue-eyed”.
Despite how some people think especially in USA they did not look like Sicilian imigrants to USA that mostly are descendant of the poor strates of Sicily that had moorish descent and were even a minority of the Island ethnicity.
Their look was light skin , many had blue eyes and some were blond and red haired .
There were numerous Rufii, Rubrii and Rutilii, names which refer to red hair. There were also Flavi, Flaviani and Fulvi, which reveals blond hair.
Suetonius, in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars, said that both Augustus and Nero had blond hair and blue eyes, that Galba had blue eyes, whilst Domitian not only had a ruddy complexion, but also composed a poem about an elderly, red-haired Roman that he knew. Suetonius also notes that Nero’s gens were referred to as the Ahenobarbi, (Copper Beards), because his clan continually produced men who had red beards. Finally, we can observe that the name “Caesar”, derives from the Latin word caesius, which means “blue-eyed”.
Despite how some people think especially in USA they did not look like Sicilian imigrants to USA that mostly are descendant of the poor strates of Sicily that had moorish descent and were even a minority of the Island ethnicity.
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But then, in turn, if you're talking about Mongoloid Turks from Central Asia, the first ones to arrive en masse were the Seljuks, and they only appeared on the scene in early to mid 11th century, at the earliest, AFAIK.
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If most Romans had fair hair and pale skin, why did they usually portray themselves as having brown or black hair and complexions common to the Mediterranean in their art?
Surely there were fair-haired and light skinned individuals, but you're peddling a myth if you're making the argument that most of them were. The ancient Italians looked like modern Italians, not Scandinavians.
As for the origins of the name Caesar, it has an uncertain meaning and the origin is disputed. That it was derived from caesius, to mean a person with blue-gray eyes, is one possibility. Another was that it was derived from caesaries (mane of hair), and would have originally been a nickname for someone with a full head of it, or perhaps an ironic one for someone who was bald. Two competing hyptotheses was that it was derived from caeso (cut) and refers to a birth by C-section, or that it was derived from the Punic word for elephant (caesai) and was a cognomen given to Gaius Julius' ancestor Julius Sextus Caesar, the first in the family to bear that cognomen, for killing an elephant during the Punic Wars.
Interestingly enough Julius Caesar may have believed the last one, or at least wanted the Roman mob to associate that last one with his family, since one of the coins he had minted featured an elephant on the back and Caesar underneath.
In any case whatever the origin it certainly didn't apply to the most famous of the Caesars, since Julius inherited that cognomen. We also know his eye color, and it wasn't blue. He was described as having black and piercing eyes. His hair color was not recorded, but if he had very dark brown eyes it is more likely his hair was dark than fair.
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First I didn't say most and second the portraits u probably refer to are the Al fayum wich portray romanized egyptians while the pompeii ones southern Italy romanized. Do not confuse Romans with the Roman citizen that are different things.Also I did not refer to Caesar Julius, that was described with fair complexion anyway, but the name itself and the root of the word. Even today you keep using names that are no longer asociated with the physical appearence.
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I was not referring to Al Fayum but frescos found in Italy. The great majority of them depict brown-haired people with complexions common to the Mediterranean.
The notion that blonde hair was common among the ancient Romans is a myth, without a shred of evidence supporting it, put forward in the 19th Century by nationalists and other unsavory characters in countries with Germanic languages who wanted to tie Rome's decline and fall to race mixing.
Unfortunately it's a myth that refuses to die and in various forms resurfaces occasionally on the internet. Whether intended or not, that's a path you appeared to be treading. Some Latins and other ancient Italians were blonde, certainly. Many or most? Absolutely not, at least south of the Po.
The meaning of the name Caesar is disputed and has been for 2,000 years, since it was apparently forgotten why Sextus Julius was called Caesar by Julius Cesar's day.. You presented one possible meaning as if it was the only possible meaning, so your post was a bit misleading.
There is no agreement on what Caesar meant and likely never will be, since the ancients who wrote about it weren't in agreement either. Spartianus, in the life of Aelius Verus, lists all four of the hypotheses I posted above. Pliny thought it was derived from caeso (cut) which why we call a Caesarian section Caesarian.
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No is noth a myth if you read the original sources there are countless references. And it has no relation to Nationalism or nazism or other of this stuff.
Also if you read better I have not said all Romans were blond , but that some were blond and red haired as is atested by historical references.
Then the Italian frescos u are referring are pompeian ones? those also mostly portray people from Southern Italy , misture of greeks and locals , yet the yshow a pretty fair complexion and not North african or eastern skin tone.
Here Some Roman age ..... from Sicilian villa fresco .
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Nonsense, and it did originate with 19th Century racists.
Cite one source from either antiquity or a modern historian with a shred of credibility, supporting the assertion that most Latins, and not just individuals, looked like Scandinavians.
Some, yes.
You said "many" in your initial post, which was incorrect. The majority of Roman art that depicts hair color, depicts brunettes. That is not all together surprising considering more than three quarters of modern Italians, who in large part are their descendants, aren't blonde as well.
The natives of Pompeii, and most of Campania for that matter, were Oscans, an Italic tribe just like the Latins.
Here Some Roman age ..... from Sicilian villa fresco .
Misleading.
That panel shows two blonde women, but it is not the full mosaic. Why not show the full thing? There are more brunettes than blondes in the complete mosaic, which is probably why you elected to post a cropped image of two of the blondes.
You're also exhibiting a bit of a double standard in dismissing the Pompeii frescos as depicting people who weren't Latin, yet latching onto a selectively cropped photo of a mosaic from Sicily to support your position.
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I am wondering if you are really serious?
You are making up false references I haven't wrote .
I never wrote Romans looked like scandinavians or other stuff you are suspiciously insinuating.
I have wrote what is clearly aknowledgeable if you read any ancient text.
Pick one example? Read Suetonius.
Also .. some ... o many is relative . Not all Romans had blond hairs like not all English people do ... but was quite common apparently...
Picking 18 Emperors from Augustus to Commodus 9 had blond or red hair; 5 had grey or white hair; 3 had no recorded hair colour, and just 1 (Hadrian), was referred to as dark-haired.
Of the 18 Emperors from Augustus to Commodus 9 had blue or grey eyes; 2 had "wine-coloured eyes", and 7 had no recorded eye colour.
One description of Nero :"his hair light blond, his features regular rather than attractive, his eyes blue and somewhat weak".
As for the mosaic ? Misleading ??? Are you joking ? Whats ur problem ? You can clearly check online as I wrote the source it shows some blond and some brunette haired ...... Not an owerwhelming majority of dark ..... ... and blonds are present and significant ... None if them look african , black haired or dark skinned . Idunno where you want to go with your neglecting of facts.
Also quote me where I wrote most Romans looked like scandinavians lol... those are your words not mines.
Please don't make up words for others.
Also i don't get the problem in revealing that original Romans might even look more blond and fair ... what would be the problem with that and why has to be linked or related to nazism or other fancy theories?
Turks are overwhelmingly Middle Eastern in origin although they speak a Turkic Language. Mongols invaded Turkey and some other East European countries LONG AFTER THE ROMAN EMPIRE HAD COLLAPSED.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns
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Netherlands
Unless I am missing something, Suetonius doesn't seem to say explicitly that Augustus' eyes were blue-colored. He is described as having oculos claros ac nitidos ... capillum leviter inflexum et subflavum, "clear and bright eyes ... hair slightly curved and somewhat flavum" (blondish, or merely indicating a light shade of brown according to Roman standards?).
The origin of the cognomen Caesar is not certain, but Julius Caesar's eyes were "black and lively" (nigris vegetisque oculis).
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Sanity check.
1) Women have been modifiying their appearance, and hair color, at least since the Egyptians. Whatever modifications they chose were likely to enhance whatever features were popular in their day, and maybe make them unique. The Netflix "Spartacus" series uses historical fact like salt on top of a meal of nonsense, but the Xena actress goes through quite a few wigs ... just like the Romans did (before she goes nuts).
2) Blond hair and blue eyes are far overrated as indicators of anything. (Try not to smile looking at these adorable kids.)
Google "Africa blue eyes" and/or "Africa blond hair" then "Images". There are tons of these.
1) Women have been modifiying their appearance, and hair color, at least since the Egyptians. Whatever modifications they chose were likely to enhance whatever features were popular in their day, and maybe make them unique. The Netflix "Spartacus" series uses historical fact like salt on top of a meal of nonsense, but the Xena actress goes through quite a few wigs ... just like the Romans did (before she goes nuts).
2) Blond hair and blue eyes are far overrated as indicators of anything. (Try not to smile looking at these adorable kids.)
Google "Africa blue eyes" and/or "Africa blond hair" then "Images". There are tons of these.
Joined Mar 2017
2,012 Posts | 521+
Colorado
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Genotypes:
Most people know that a genetic mutation known as "sickle cell anemia" is present in populations on the African continent. It shortens lives, has some complications late in life, but gives some resistance to malaria.
"Thalassemia" is a similar defect with similar effect: a genetic mutation, some complications, some resistance to malaria. It is present in all Mediterranean populations from Spain to Turkey, and around the coast through Syria to Egypt. There were three different forms of malaria active during Roman times.
The third sentence of Suetonius records Julius Caesar having a severe attack of "quartan ague" or "quartan fever" (depending on translation), when he was 16. "Quartan fever" is malaria. Since he lived to a pretty decent age (probably some minor episodic fevers), he likely shared the mutation with most of the Mediterranean.
This also makes a comment about "mixing" of gene pools in order to maintain this mutation in populations right up until the present.
Most people know that a genetic mutation known as "sickle cell anemia" is present in populations on the African continent. It shortens lives, has some complications late in life, but gives some resistance to malaria.
"Thalassemia" is a similar defect with similar effect: a genetic mutation, some complications, some resistance to malaria. It is present in all Mediterranean populations from Spain to Turkey, and around the coast through Syria to Egypt. There were three different forms of malaria active during Roman times.
The third sentence of Suetonius records Julius Caesar having a severe attack of "quartan ague" or "quartan fever" (depending on translation), when he was 16. "Quartan fever" is malaria. Since he lived to a pretty decent age (probably some minor episodic fevers), he likely shared the mutation with most of the Mediterranean.
This also makes a comment about "mixing" of gene pools in order to maintain this mutation in populations right up until the present.
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