Hi everyone.I want to make a video about French monarchs.TOP 10 French monarchs.And I wonder,should I include Charlemagne or other Franks in it?
Must we count Charlemagne French of German monarch?
- Thread starter Gevorg of Armenia
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Joined Aug 2009
5,747 Posts | 10+
Belgium
None of the above, to argue it very narrowly. France nor Germany existed as of yet. It's like asking to call Augustus Italian in the modern sense. But you could, it wouldn't be that faulty to most. Charlemagne was a Frankish sovereign, the name of a germanic tribe which was give later to an entire country, France. There remained also the prinicpality of Frankia in the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.
I know that none of the countries existed.But both French and German people consider him to be the founder of their nations.
Joined Aug 2009
5,747 Posts | 10+
Belgium
Well I don't know exactly how your video is going but you just said it yourself
he's considered at the cradle of both. There is enough historical continuity to more then justify it. That's my opinion.Well I don't know exactly how your video is going but you just said it yourself
That's why I don't know to include him or not.
Joined Aug 2009
5,747 Posts | 10+
Belgium
I think you could. Clearly, the legacy of Charles the Great/Charlemagne had a deep impact on the nation that was to become France. There is no historically significant point of seperation between the 2 at all. And suppose you were to do the same on Germany, you could include him again
I think you could. Clearly, the legacy of Charles the Great/Charlemagne had a deep impact on the nation that was to become France. There is no historically significant point of seperation between the 2 at all. And suppose you were to do the same on Germany, you could include him again
Thank you for advice
Joined Dec 2011
156 Posts | 0+
Paris
Hello,
I am currently a History student, and my teacher, an expert in (ok Byzantine) medieval History taught us that reasoning in terms of "German" or "French" (note : neither the term "France" or "germany" were used at the time) is anachronistic so early on.
It is also important to note that Charles Magnus was a latin speaker, had his capital in what is modern day Germany and considered himself as the new Roman Emperor. He did not identify with Francia Occidentalis (France) or Neustria (basically Rhineland), they were just territories that he happened to control.
So I guess either you don't count him, or if you count Clovis as king of France, you should count him too, as he effectively ruled the territory of modern day France, but then again you could also count him as a German monarch.
I suppose the easier for you would be not to do a video about the Kings of France, but of the Kings and Monarchs who ruled France, which would be more accurate I believe. If the debate goes on, I'll make an effort an look it up in my books to get clarifications.
I am currently a History student, and my teacher, an expert in (ok Byzantine) medieval History taught us that reasoning in terms of "German" or "French" (note : neither the term "France" or "germany" were used at the time) is anachronistic so early on.
It is also important to note that Charles Magnus was a latin speaker, had his capital in what is modern day Germany and considered himself as the new Roman Emperor. He did not identify with Francia Occidentalis (France) or Neustria (basically Rhineland), they were just territories that he happened to control.
So I guess either you don't count him, or if you count Clovis as king of France, you should count him too, as he effectively ruled the territory of modern day France, but then again you could also count him as a German monarch.
I suppose the easier for you would be not to do a video about the Kings of France, but of the Kings and Monarchs who ruled France, which would be more accurate I believe. If the debate goes on, I'll make an effort an look it up in my books to get clarifications.
Charlemagne is neither French nor german or Dutch or Belgian or Luxemburgian. He was Frankish. But he is an important part of the history of all of them and all are the heirs of his history.
Joined Nov 2011
628 Posts | 3+
Texas, USA
Thinking of Charlemagne in terms of a modern, nationalist, viewpoint is not really accurate. The nation state did not exist at that time.
Charlemagne could be seen as a precursor to the modern, German state (and the modern French state), but so could the Roman Emperors before him.
Charlemagne could be seen as a precursor to the modern, German state (and the modern French state), but so could the Roman Emperors before him.
Joined Jun 2011
2,141 Posts | 2+
California, USA
It depends. The Germans at one point had a very mixed image of Charlemagne because of his infatuation with imperial rome's legacy and his very violent campaigns against the saxons.
It makes no sense to try to speak of Charlemagne as a German or a French. Charlemagne spoke a germanic language and wore frankish clothes, but he made a massive use of latin in his administration and always wanted to handle this language correctly. On the other hand, he was very different from other "germans" like the saxons for example, the most populated and richest part of his realm was what is now France and was then Gaul (especially northern Gaul, the center of his empire). And, he did live in Aachen, Germany but only in the later part of his reign when he was old as he enjoyed the water there. But for the most part of his reign, he travelled, and sometimes settled and resided in Gaul.
Joined Apr 2010
1,682 Posts | 218+
evergreen state, USA
To Germans, Charlemagne is known as Karl der Grosse (or something like that). We English speakers probably should call him Charles the Great.
I wonder what his Y-DNA haplogroup was. I see a R1a L664 NW2 individual pops up in Czech (south) Sudetenland (Austrian). That may have arrived via the Frankish invasion.
I wonder what his Y-DNA haplogroup was. I see a R1a L664 NW2 individual pops up in Czech (south) Sudetenland (Austrian). That may have arrived via the Frankish invasion.
Joined Dec 2009
19,936 Posts | 25+
Actually this king lived in a complex and poorly attested plurilingual society.
It was famously stated that Karl:
(Einhard, Vita Karoli Magni, XXV: II-III)
By "Latin" Einhard implied the Medieval written language of the educated people of the contemporary western Europe.
By this king's "native language" the biographer implied a Western Germanic language descendant of the Old Frankish, technically called Old Low Franconian.
Karl was presumably familiar from boyhood with the rustica Romana Lingua of most of the local population, i.e. the local Gallo-Romance already quite different from its paternal Latin but still far from French.
Joined Feb 2010
5,685 Posts | 730+
Canary Islands-Spain
Last edited:
I wouldn't include him in that list. France and Germany origin lies on the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Verdun"]Treaty of Verdun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Charles the Bald is usually considered the first French King, but even with him there are problems. The first undisputed King of France was Hugh Capet.
Charles the Bald is usually considered the first French King, but even with him there are problems. The first undisputed King of France was Hugh Capet.
Joined Feb 2010
5,685 Posts | 730+
Canary Islands-Spain
The complex nature of Charlemagne make him antecessor of... Europe. If you look to Europeists, the official discurse of the European Union, they claime always the common "Carolingian heritage". Carolingian Europe as a dream of a past unity.
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