The Decrypters: African Knight in Medieval Britain?

jehosafats · May 16, 2012

Xanthi visits the National Archives to learn about the presence of Africans in medieval Britain.

Video -- Africans in Medieval Britain -- National Geographic

jehosafats · May 16, 2012

Presumably the visit to the National Archives is related to this story:

He was an African who had a strong jaw and a bad back... So what was he doing in Ipswich in the year 1190? | Mail Online

jehosafats · May 16, 2012

People may recall when researchers discovered the tomb of the "Ivory Bangle ....." As it was reported in The Times, the lead researcher said:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]She said that “Ivory Bangle ....” was very wealthy — “absolutely from the top end of York society”.

“The link between slavery and Africans is an early modern one. In the Roman world this simply was not the case. Slaves in Roman times could come from any area.”

She added that inscriptions from that period showed that African people were most often members of the imperialist power’s army. But the latest research on a series of skeletons showed that African men had immigrated to Britain, invariably with the Roman Army, and had brought their wives and children. [/FONT]

But 1190-1241 CE? Rome was long gone by then.

betgo · May 16, 2012

There were definitely a lot of north Africans in the Roman army, but were there black Africans in the Roman army?

jehosafats · May 16, 2012

General Lucius Quietus (d. 118 CE). He was "North African," from Mauretania. Classicists describe him variously as "Moor," "full blooded black African," "Ethiopian," or "Abyssinian." So clearly there were blacks in the Roman army.

Bart Dale · May 16, 2012

jehosafats said:
People may recall when researchers discovered the tomb of the "Ivory Bangle ....." As it was reported in The Times, the lead researcher said:

But 1190-1241 CE? Rome was long gone by then.

In Kevin Costner's Robin Hood movie, there is a black character that came back with Robin Hood (Costner) from the Crusades. Something like that could have happened in real life. While there wasn't a lot of trade between Europe and the rest of the world at that time, there was some. A returning knight could have acquired a black servant while in the Mideast on one of the Crusades, and brought him back with him when he returned. It wouldn't have happened a lot, though, and would have been rare.

jehosafats · May 16, 2012

He was likely a knight according to what I've read so far. There seemed to have been a similar presence this period in Denmark and Norway. The warrior-king Geirmund Heljarskin, for example. Even Morien from the Knight of the Cart.

mansamusa · May 16, 2012

I think the mainsteram media suffers from this concept of North Africa being an extension of "Western Eurasia" as oppossed to being part of Africa. Consequently the ordinary person finds it difficult to associate North Africa with blacks.

MonomachmosIV · May 16, 2012

mansamusa said:
I think the mainsteram media suffers from this concept of North Africa being an extension of "Western Eurasia" as oppossed to being part of Africa. Consequently the ordinary person finds it difficult to associate North Africa with blacks.

Well, if you've been to North Africa you can see that the natives there aren't "black" in the modern sense. There are some- and of course Blacks inhabited parts of Upper Egypt since Antiquity and worked as Iron smiths in some parts of North Africa since the Muslim Conquest. But still, they've mostly blended in genetically as minority populations generally do over centuries.

I would say that the ordinary Westerner thinks "Black people" when they hear the word Africa, the person who is somewhat educated knows slightly better that North Africa is somewhat different, and the expert knows that it's more complicated than that.

The Schizophrenia of the ethnic makeup of North Africa is further aggravated by Afro-centrists, Nordicists, and the appearance of Black knights, Black Gladiators, and wise black sages in every single Hollywood movie about the European Past- You'd think living in 13th Century Britain or France had the same ethnic makeup as suburban America. You even have Sicilians claiming to be part "Black" as some kind of badge of honor. This is of course a reaction to years of racism from White historians I understand, but it's still a bit absurd and leads to the feeling of incredulity from genuine history enthusiasts when we do hear a genuine story like this one that's been posted.

mansamusa · May 16, 2012

MonomachmosIV said:
Well, if you've been to North Africa you can see that the natives there aren't "black" in the modern sense. There are some- and of course Blacks inhabited parts of Upper Egypt since Antiquity and worked as Iron smiths in some parts of North Africa since the Muslim Conquest. But still, they've mostly blended in genetically as minority populations generally do over centuries.

I would say that the ordinary Westerner thinks "Black people" when they hear the word Africa, the person who is somewhat educated knows slightly better that North Africa is somewhat different, and the expert knows that it's more complicated than that.

The Schizophrenia of the ethnic makeup of North Africa is further aggravated by Afro-centrists, Nordicists, and the appearance of Black knights, Black Gladiators, and wise black sages in every single Hollywood movie about the European Past- You'd think living in 13th Century Britain or France had the same ethnic makeup as suburban America. You even have Sicilians claiming to be part "Black" as some kind of badge of honor. This is of course a reaction to years of racism from White historians I understand, but it's still a bit absurd and leads to the feeling of incredulity from genuine history enthusiasts when we do hear a genuine story like this one that's been posted.

This is what I mean. We have these discussions regularly on Historum. They often end bad. Mostly because people feel their own idea of Africa is more valuable than the actual historical Africa that can be proven by science and research and scholarship.

abvgd · May 16, 2012

jehosafats said:
General Lucius Quietus (d. 118 CE). He was "North African," from Mauretania. Classicists describe him variously as "Moor," "full blooded black African," "Ethiopian," or "Abyssinian." So clearly there were blacks in the Roman army.

Just to clarify, Lucius Quietus was AFAIK from modern-day Morocco and not from modern-day Mauretania. The name Mauretania has migrated southwards since then and modern-day Mauretania is indeed a pretty mixed place, with both caucasian and ....... populations, but anyway that's a whole other story...

Quietus' cavalry-men, as depicted in Trajan's column, look pretty "white" to me at least. As do other natives from the wider area and time-period that we speak of, such as Juba II. They would pass pretty comfortably as modern-day Moroccans or Berbers. When it comes to references of dark skin within the Roman Empire, that's AFAIK associated with the Eastern part of Rome's realm in Africa, not the Western part where Rome kept itself to the Mediterranean coast-line.

OTOH, I have to assume that if classicists call a specific person from antiquity a "full-blooded black African", then there must be a good reason for that (not that there's a shortage of "crack-pot" theories as well circulating the Internet). Is there any ancient source that describes him in such terms?

mansamusa · May 16, 2012

abvgd said:
Just to clarify, Lucius Quietus was AFAIK from modern-day Morocco and not from modern-day Mauretania. The name Mauretania has migrated southwards since then and modern-day Mauretania is indeed a pretty mixed place, with both caucasian and ....... populations, but anyway that's a whole other story...

Quietus' cavalry-men, as depicted in Trajan's column, look pretty "white" to me at least.

White with dreadlocks--right?

jehosafats · May 16, 2012

abvgd said:
Just to clarify, Lucius Quietus was AFAIK from modern-day Morocco and not from modern-day Mauretania. The name Mauretania has migrated southwards since then and modern-day Mauretania is indeed a pretty mixed place, with both caucasian and ....... populations, but anyway that's a whole other story...

Quietus' cavalry-men, as depicted in Trajan's column, look pretty "white" to me at least. As do other natives from the wider area and time-period that we speak of, such as Juba II. They would pass pretty comfortably as modern-day Moroccans or Berbers. When it comes to references of dark skin within the Roman Empire, that's AFAIK associated with the Eastern part of Rome's realm in Africa, not the Western part where Rome kept itself to the Mediterranean coast-line.

OTOH, I have to assume that when someone calls a specific person from antiquity a "full-blooded black African", then there must be a good reason for that, unless it's one of those "crack-pot" theories that circulate the Internet (not that there's a shortage of those as well). Is there any ancient source that describes him in such terms?

Admittedly, I could've made that clear. Maurentania refers to present day Morocco.

Strabo mentioned the 'Ethiopians' occupied both the Atlas mountains and a "great part of the sea-board." They did sometimes include 'leucaethiopes' in their descriptions of Moroccans, but in real physical terms the nomenclature is difficult to parse. Still, Ethiopians described by their geographers and foreign ministers lived directly south of their cities for the most part, in the eastern and western realms of Roman Africa. They even overran Iberia at one point, well before the Arab invasion. Lucius Quietus happened to be a prince from the western territories. These Ethiopians were of course Berbers. Roman diplomats wisely saw them as related to the Beja, for example, on the far southeastern coast of the continent. And "full-blooded black African" wasn't said by any ancient author but a classicist whose name I can't recall, from a journal I can no longer find, or at least no longer have access to. Though I'm pretty sure this was cited by W. den Boer.

abvgd · May 17, 2012

mansamusa said:
White with dreadlocks--right?

A casual look at their faces makes it pretty clear that they don't display ....... characteristics. As for braided hair and dreadlocks, those are not racial characteristics. You get those hairstyles in various regions and cultures, Europe included (the earliest example found in Venus figurines). Culture evolves over time. Just because modern-day Moroccans do not braid their hair, doesn't mean that the Moroccans of antiquity didn't. Scots don't paint themselves blue anymore, either...

jehosafats said:
And "full-blooded black African" wasn't said by any ancient author but a classicist whose name I can't recall, from a journal I can no longer find, or at least no longer have access to. Though I'm pretty sure this was cited by W. den Boer.

I reacted because this seems to be a highly speculative claim, supported at best by rather vague anthropological descriptions. Howerver, my intent was not to derail the thread so I'll just leave it at that.

jehosafats · May 18, 2012

abvgd said:
I reacted because this seems to be a highly speculative claim, supported at best by rather vague anthropological descriptions. Howerver, my intent was not to derail the thread so I'll just leave it at that.

Exactly what is 'highly speculative' about it? He was invariably described as Ethiopian, moro, and Abyssian by ancient writers. As were Moorish cavalrymen. W. den Boer cited another author from his field who said frankly, he was "full-blooded black African." It isn't some pesky internet rumor. It isn't at all extraordinary save for his rank. What I find vague is this recourse to "....... characteristics," which you only really find in rather unstudied arguments.

The Cell · May 18, 2012

jehosafats said:
Xanthi visits the National Archives to learn about the presence of Africans in medieval Britain.

Video -- Africans in Medieval Britain -- National Geographic

This is very interesting

, thank you very much for sharing

...

mansamusa · May 18, 2012

abvgd said:
A casual look at their faces makes it pretty clear that they don't display ....... characteristics. As for braided hair and dreadlocks, those are not racial characteristics. You get those hairstyles in various regions and cultures, Europe included (the earliest example found in Venus figurines). Culture evolves over time. Just because modern-day Moroccans do not braid their hair, doesn't mean that the Moroccans of antiquity didn't. Scots don't paint themselves blue anymore, either....

I suppose race is in the eyes of the beholder. Because i am not able to draw any such conclusion by a "casual look at their faces":

I would rather imagine that a North African typically looked like this, and this guy is Carthaginian or Punic:

coins%2Bof%2Bhannibal%2B-%2Bfor%2Bblog%2BSNGANS_39.jpg

It would make more sense instead to assume that regardless of the culture or language of indigenous North Africans--Punic, Rome, Greek or Tamazigh, they generally looked like this, absent the inevitable admixture with lighter skin populations across the mediterranean sea.

DreamWeaver · May 18, 2012

jehosafats said:
People may recall when researchers discovered the tomb of the "Ivory Bangle ....." As it was reported in The Times, the lead researcher said:

But 1190-1241 CE? Rome was long gone by then.

Emperor Frederick II, brother in law to King Henry III of England and Richard Earl of Cornwall, speculation of a possible context.

Emilio Primo · May 18, 2012

Great info Jehosafats, thanks for sharing this... The truth always comes out, eventually.

Emilio Primo · May 18, 2012

mansamusa said:
I think the mainsteram media suffers from this concept of North Africa being an extension of "Western Eurasia" as oppossed to being part of Africa. Consequently the ordinary person finds it difficult to associate North Africa with blacks.

All too true.

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