Triarii - Romes Military Police

Joined Mar 2010
9,845 Posts | 31+
Just watched this video.

In which the role of the Triarri is discussed. (at the 18:24 mark)

He seems to think that they formed up as the rear guard to act both as a backstop to the enemy and to prevent any routed units from fleeing the battlefield. Forcing them back into the battle with their spears.

He says their doesn't appear to be any hard evidence for this, but suggests several things that indicate that this might be the case.

Firstly the Triarri were generally the oldest men on the battlefield and the most respected, men who were to old to enough to be assigned to the Principes but certainly not unable to fight. These men would've commanded the most respect from their comrades and may have been able to rally routing units.

They formed up in long lines at the rear of that army, instead of units like the rest of the army. Ideal to stop fleeing units from running through the gaps.

They were armed with spears, whilst the rest of the army used swords. It's very hard to run through a wall of spears to get away.

Any thoughts???

Do you agree/disagree if so why???
 
Joined Jan 2015
4,856 Posts | 2,895+
MD, USA
I wouldn't put much faith in a modern theory of a function that he admits the ancients never talked about and "probably never even thought about"... You don't subconsciously devote such a large percentage of your troops to a function that never occurs to you.

Sure, a line of your own veterans WILL help prevent men in front of them from fleeing! That's a side effect. The Romans state very clearly what the triarii were there for, and without something solid there is no real reason to start speculating wildly.

Lloyd has a lot of knowledge, but is all too willing to chuck his own opinions in as if they were facts. He also comes up with flat-out errors based on incorrect data, poor reconstructions, etc. I only watched a couple minutes of the video, and probably won't watch it all, but I did notice that he mentions triarii being shown as kneeling--not in any *ancient* artwork! Heck, there aren't really any Roman depictions of troops that we can be sure are triarii at all! The illustrations he is thinking of are MODERN. They are not evidence. Now, if Polybius or some other Roman writer mentions triarii kneeling, there we go, solid evidence, and not subject to his opinion of it not being comfortable.

I'm also puzzled by the question of lines versus units? All Roman troops were organized in centuries and maniples, and those units fought in lines. But like I said, I didn't watch the whole video.

Matthew
 
Joined May 2016
12,115 Posts | 4,890+
Portugal
But like I said, I didn't watch the whole video.

Neither did I.

As a side question, I think that the “videozation” of history brings new challenges to History itself as a Social Science. We are slowly but gradually abandoning the writing system (in books or even in e-books) to watch a videos. And the quantity (and quality) of information isn’t exactly the same. That video has 29 minutes and 57 seconds. How many pages of decent information can we read from a book (or several) in half an hour?
 
Joined Mar 2010
9,845 Posts | 31+
Neither did I.

As a side question, I think that the “videozation” of history brings new challenges to History itself as a Social Science. We are slowly but gradually abandoning the writing system (in books or even in e-books) to watch a videos. And the quantity (and quality) of information isn’t exactly the same. That video has 29 minutes and 57 seconds. How many pages of decent information can we read from a book (or several) in half an hour?
And this is bad because???


Just because it's on Youtube and not written down doesn't make it any more or less wrong/right.
 
Joined Jul 2016
9,816 Posts | 1,337+
USA
And this is bad because???

Just because it's on Youtube and not written down doesn't make it any more or less wrong/right.

Its bad for history because its easier to bullsh*t people on video. Because there are no footnotes, detailed bibliographies, or sources policies in video. They are entertainment costumed as education, and the masses eat it up because its more fun to watch a video than read a book, for most people.
 
Joined Aug 2016
12,409 Posts | 8,403+
Dispargum
On video history vs written: One thing you can do in writing is use footnotes. Readers who want to track down which sources contributed to which part of the text, can do so, while readers who don't care about sources can ignore the footnotes and read right past them. Videos have more difficulty maintaining a smooth, rapidly moving flow to the presentation while still linking to specific sources. Listing the sources as a bibliography in the ending credits is not the same thing since it doesn't link the source to a specific part of the presentation.

On triarii: the Romans did not have NCOs, but the triarii did somewhat function like the modern NCO. They were older, more experienced soldiers. At the rear of the formation, they functioned like file closers whose main job was to ensure that the men in front of them did not run away. The different leadership styles of officers and NCOs is perhaps best illustrated by the way paratroopers jump out of a plane: the officer jumps first to give the men a good example. The sergeant jumps last. His job is to push the other men out of the door. This is a modern version of the ancient file closer. This interpretation of the triarii might not be supported in the sources, but soldiers haven't changed that much in 2,000 years. Certain types of leadership have always worked, and the temptation to run away has been present on every battlefield.
 
Joined Jan 2015
4,856 Posts | 2,895+
MD, USA
On video history vs written: One thing you can do in writing is use footnotes. Readers who want to track down which sources contributed to which part of the text, can do so, while readers who don't care about sources can ignore the footnotes and read right past them. Videos have more difficulty maintaining a smooth, rapidly moving flow to the presentation while still linking to specific sources. Listing the sources as a bibliography in the ending credits is not the same thing since it doesn't link the source to a specific part of the presentation.

Agreed! It's also naive to think that the average Youtube "history" video is even remotely of the quality of the average history book. Though compared to the History Channel, maybe they aren't that bad...

On triarii: the Romans did not have NCOs, but the triarii did somewhat function like the modern NCO. They were older, more experienced soldiers. At the rear of the formation, they functioned like file closers whose main job was to ensure that the men in front of them did not run away. The different leadership styles of officers and NCOs is perhaps best illustrated by the way paratroopers jump out of a plane: the officer jumps first to give the men a good example. The sergeant jumps last. His job is to push the other men out of the door. This is a modern version of the ancient file closer. This interpretation of the triarii might not be supported in the sources, but soldiers haven't changed that much in 2,000 years. Certain types of leadership have always worked, and the temptation to run away has been present on every battlefield.

Weeeellll, yes and no. Greek phalanxes were always formed with a steady older man at the rear as a true file closer, to urge on the less experienced or less bold men in front of him. The Romans don't seem to have done that, really, though the optio was a traditional rear-ranker with his staff to help maintain order.

But the triarii were in their own battle line, separated from the units in front of them by several yards at least. Sure, their presence might be felt, but it was nothing like have an experienced hand literally on your shoulder.

And aggie will jump all over you about NCOs, too, ha!

Matthew
 
Joined Jul 2016
9,816 Posts | 1,337+
USA
Last edited:
On video history vs written: One thing you can do in writing is use footnotes. Readers who want to track down which sources contributed to which part of the text, can do so, while readers who don't care about sources can ignore the footnotes and read right past them. Videos have more difficulty maintaining a smooth, rapidly moving flow to the presentation while still linking to specific sources. Listing the sources as a bibliography in the ending credits is not the same thing since it doesn't link the source to a specific part of the presentation.

On triarii: the Romans did not have NCOs, but the triarii did somewhat function like the modern NCO. They were older, more experienced soldiers. At the rear of the formation, they functioned like file closers whose main job was to ensure that the men in front of them did not run away. The different leadership styles of officers and NCOs is perhaps best illustrated by the way paratroopers jump out of a plane: the officer jumps first to give the men a good example. The sergeant jumps last. His job is to push the other men out of the door. This is a modern version of the ancient file closer. This interpretation of the triarii might not be supported in the sources, but soldiers haven't changed that much in 2,000 years. Certain types of leadership have always worked, and the temptation to run away has been present on every battlefield.

NCOs supervise, lead, and train junior soldiers, its literally why the position exists. What junior soldiers were Triari supervising/leading? None, since they were completely separated by class lines from younger soldiers, not in the same century or maniple. They had no day to day exposure with younger soldiers, until the time of the cohortal system, and even then, they were separated by numerous centuries with the younger guys. I believe the whole point was that the Romans (like a few other peoples) knew that men of varying age group shouldn't be stuck together in a single combat unit because they just wont get along all that well. Men that are 37 (like I am now) don't EVER want to serve with 17-20 year olds of the same rank. Ever. I can't think of a worse punishment, to be a private soldier in a group of kids, all of us equal in rank...

More so, most soldiers in the triari, principes, hastati were all the same rank anyway. A 37 year old Roman Triari not serving as a centurion or principales would be classed as a miles gregarius (common soldier), and would receive the base pay. Same as a 17 year old in the Velites. Neither had anymore power than the other. One just had more distinction.

The NCOs, if you want to call them that, were the principales, since they were appointed by the centurions. The warrant officers were the centurions themselves, as they were appointed by the commanders of the legions, the tribunes, the legates, and the generals, who were appointed by the Senate and later Emperor, being commissioned by the highest powers.

Triari fought as the reserve for their legion, with the whole third line being the reserve for the whole army. Being older and all veterans, less was expected of them in terms of fighting, they wouldn't be used typically unless everything went to hell. They didn't seem to be involved in building camps (they would guard the construction of them), they likely had less tiresome fatigue duties all around. But they weren't leaders of anything, just older soldiers.
 
Joined Aug 2016
12,409 Posts | 8,403+
Dispargum
Like I said in my previous post, the Romans did not have NCOs. I suppose I could have elaborated and said the Romans did not have enlisted ranks. I guess I took that as a given. Nevertheless, the Romans did understand that soldiers of different ages and experience levels are best used in different ways. Assigning the men to different categories like velitite, hastati, principe, and triarii served much the same function that modern armies achieve by having different ranks.

The experience of my own military career showed a pretty close correlation between age, experience and rank so that the lines between the three were pretty blurry. If you want to think of an NCO as a leader and a trainer, that's certainly the textbook definition, but there's also room for understanding that NCOs are older, more experienced, and provide a certain amount of stability to an otherwise volatile organization of young men. NCOs also occupy a major niche in military society, being quartered and messing separately from other ranks and being assigned different duties. Kind of like the triarii.
 
Joined Aug 2016
12,409 Posts | 8,403+
Dispargum
Another advantage of books over videos: indexing. If your interest is much narrower than the book, you go to the index and find only that part of the book that interests you. You can't really do that with a video.

Another advantage of books over video: going back and rereading if you didn't understand something the first time. Depending on the exact media, you might not be able to go back and rewind a video.
 
Joined Jul 2016
9,816 Posts | 1,337+
USA
Like I said in my previous post, the Romans did not have NCOs. I suppose I could have elaborated and said the Romans did not have enlisted ranks. I guess I took that as a given. Nevertheless, the Romans did understand that soldiers of different ages and experience levels are best used in different ways. Assigning the men to different categories like velitite, hastati, principe, and triarii served much the same function that modern armies achieve by having different ranks.

What is a non-commissioned officer? Its a person holding the position of a leader but not having been commissioned in it by the standard higher authorities. That essentially is a Principales, they held leadership roles within the century, but were not appointed to that role by the Legion. That's literally the basis for NCOs.

The Romans did have enlisted ranks. Anyone who wasn't an officer (tribune, praefect, centurion, decurion, optio, signifer, tesserarius) was a Miles Gregarius. They earned base pay, everyone above them received 1.5, 2, 3, or more times the base pay. And they had authority. There was zero rank distinction between an 18 year old member of a Hastati century, who was a Miles Gregarius, compared to a 37 year old Miles Gregarius from a Triari century. None. They were the same rank. Just different units, with one having a bit more prestige than the other, but not having authority over the other. The only Miles Gregarius who actually had more authority than another would be 1st Cohort (Primus Ordines) and units of Evocatii.

The experience of my own military career showed a pretty close correlation between age, experience and rank so that the lines between the three were pretty blurry. If you want to think of an NCO as a leader and a trainer, that's certainly the textbook definition, but there's also room for understanding that NCOs are older, more experienced, and provide a certain amount of stability to an otherwise volatile organization of young men. NCOs also occupy a major niche in military society, being quartered and messing separately from other ranks and being assigned different duties. Kind of like the triarii.

Again, Triari were separated not because of rank but because they were a separate order. Same as Roman cavalrymen, billeted separately from the infantry. Hastati and Principes (pre-cohortal) were also billeted separately from one another. Roman legions and Socii Ala were also billeted separately from one another. But none of that had to do with rank. A Miles Gregarius of the Secundus Maniple of the Triari was of the same rank as a Miles Gregarius of the Decimus Maniple of the Hastati. Same. Exact. Rank.

Part in bold, that has nothing to do with the duties, which is leadership, supervision, enforcing discipline, etc. That is a by product of how they were selected, as men that were more mature were often selected to these roles (though the Roman century, pre-Cohortal, would have everyone roughly of the same age, to likely include the Centurion and his Principales). So in the case of a Roman century, the equivalent leadership role of what we would now call an NCO would have been done by someone aged nearly identically as the average soldier in the unit. Hastati would be young, Principes, all were men in their prime, and Triari were older, middle Aged.
 
Joined May 2016
12,115 Posts | 4,890+
Portugal
And this is bad because???

Just because it's on Youtube and not written down doesn't make it any more or less wrong/right.

It was a side note, so it is a side question that derails from the main theme, but here it goes: I didn’t said that it is bad, or good. I am not a Manicheist. And it is not a Youtube detail, I didn’t mention Youtube in my post, there are other video sites. Besides, there are moments that a visualization helps.

The issue that I was trying to point is of relevance, as I tried to explain in the previous post, of quantity and quality of information. We can have that in written words, with photos if necessary (or even videos), much more condensate and more objective, without the funny faces of a presenter, without the jokes, without the memes and similar details that lead you away from the main theme and usually fill the videos.

If you type to letters all that it is said in that video… how many words do you have? How many paragraphs? How many pages? And in how much time can you read those pages? I bet for much less than half an hour. Reading is an active process, and the reader controls that process. Watching a video is a passive one and the watcher doesn’t control the process.

Besides other users here already pointed other aspects.
 
Joined Aug 2016
12,409 Posts | 8,403+
Dispargum
Alright Aggie, I did twice say that the Roman Army had no NCOs and that was incorrect. What I was thinking is that Triarii were not NCOs but in some ways they functioned a little like later NCOs in that they were file closers and contributed an element of maturity to an otherwise youthfully volatile army.

The Romans understood that you have to assign duties and roles based on age and experience levels. I said that in modern armies there is a close correlation between age, experience, and rank. Then I said that the triarii, as the oldest and most experienced soldiers, were assigned duties and roles that in later armies were given to NCOs. (Less because NCOs have rank but more because NCOs have age and experience. Whether an NCO is given a job because of his rank, his age, or his experience can get rather blurry.) I never said the triarii outranked the hastati or any of the other classes of soldiers. I also never said the triarii were leaders or trainers. I only said the Triarii were older and more experienced, and the Roman Army knew how to use that to their advantage.

Modern armies don't classify soldiers by age or experience. They classify them by rank, but given the loose correlation between age, rank, and experience, later armies often achieved the same results as the Romans. For instance, as you said, for billeting and messing purposes, it's best to break out the men by age. Instead armies do it by rank, but the results are pretty much the same. If the triarii were in a modern army, they would live in NCO quarters and dine at the NCO mess, and that's part of what I was getting at - triarii were a little like modern NCOs because of their age and experience not rank.
 
Joined Apr 2011
3,083 Posts | 24+
New Jersey
They were armed with spears, whilst the rest of the army used swords. It's very hard to run through a wall of spears to get away.

Any thoughts???

Do you agree/disagree if so why???
I don't believe their being armed with spears is evidence of his point. If the question is running through the men behind then spears or swords should make little difference if those men did not want them to pass that way. The triarii would not have needed spears to achieve this purpose.
 
Joined Feb 2011
1,794 Posts | 826+
Scotland
For the structure of the Republican Army and its triarii one has to go to the earliest source, Polybius: Livy we believe relied upon Polybius and gives additional information.

Polybius 6.21.7 onwards states that there were 4 types of Roman infantry which formed up in separate lines, the rearmost line consisting of the Triarii. Polybiius goes on to explain that there were 30 maniples of Triarii in a legion, each maniple consisting of two centuries of 60 men each. It appears that each maniple of Triarii would have had 24 velites attached to it.

Livy, Book 8, Chapter 8, goes on to explain the structure and use of the Triarii as well as the interactions betwen the lines:

"The Romans formerly used targets; afterwards, when they began to receive pay, they made shields instead of targets; and what before constituted phalanxes similar to the Macedonian, afterwards became a line drawn up in distinct companies. At length they were divided into several centuries. A century contained sixty soldiers, two centurions, and one standard-bearer. The spearmen (hastati) formed the first line in fifteen companies, with small intervals between them: a company had twenty light-armed soldiers, the rest wearing shields; those were called light who carried only a spear and short iron javelins. This, which constituted the van in the field of battle, contained the youth in early bloom advancing towards the age of service. Next followed men of more robust age, in the same number of companies, who were called Principes, all wearing shields, and distinguished by the completest armour. This band of thirty companies they called antepilani, because there were fifteen others placed behind them with the standards; of which each company consisted of three divisions, and the first division of each they called a pilus. Each company consisted of three ensigns, and contained one hundred and eighty-six men. The first ensign was at the head of the Triarii, veteran soldiers of .tried bravery, the second, at the head of the Rorarii, men whose ability was less by reason of their age and course of service; .the third, at the head of the Accensi, a body in whom very little confidence was reposed. For this reason also they were thrown back to the rear. When the army was marshalled according to this arrangement, the spearmen first commenced the fight. If the spearmen were unable to repulse the enemy, they re treated leisurely, and were received by the Principes into the intervals of the ranks. The fight then devolved on the Principes; the spearmen followed. The Triarii continued kneeling behind the ensigns, their left leg extended forward, holding their shields resting on their shoulders, and their spears fixed in the ground, with the points erect, so that their line bristled as if enclosed by a rampart. If the Principes also did not make sufficient impression in the fight, they retreated slowly from the front to the Triarii. Hence, when a difficulty is felt, "Matters have come to the Triarii," became a usual proverb. The Triarii rising up, after receiving the Principes and spearmen into the intervals between their ranks, immediately closing their files, shut up as it were the openings; and in one compact body fell upon the enemy, no other hope being now left: that was the most formidable circumstance to the enemy, when having pursued them as vanquished, they beheld a new line suddenly starting up, increased also in strength."


Note the explanation of the kneeling pose and its reason and also the proverb "res ad triarios rediit" meaning the situation has come down to the triarii, the third line of defense (i.e., the situation is critical) (Livy)


Livy goes on to explain how the Triarii fought in the battle of Mount Vesuvius against the similarly equipped and structured Latins in 340BCE, Book 8 Ch 10-


" while the struggle continued, and in some parts of the field the Latins were prevailing by reason of their numbers, the consul Manlius learned of his colleague's end, and having paid to so memorable a death —as justice and piety demanded —its well —merited [2] meed of tears as well as praise, he was for a little while in doubt whether the moment were yet come for the triarii to rise; but afterwards deeming it better to keep them fresh for the final push, he commanded the accensi to advance from the rear before the standards. [3] no sooner had they gone up, than the Latins, supposing their enemies had done [p. 41]the same, sent in their own triarii. These having1 fought fiercely for some time, and worn themselves out and broken or blunted their spears, yet were driving back the foe, and supposed that they had already won the field and penetrated the last line, when the consul cried out to the Roman triarii: [4] “rise up now, and with fresh strength confront the weary enemy, remembering your country and your parents, your wives and your children, remembering the consul who lies dead that you may conquer.” [5] when the triarii had got to their feet, fresh and sound in their glittering armour, a new and unforeseen array, they received the antepilani into [6??] the gaps between their files, and, raising a shout, threw the enemy's front ranks into disorder, and thrusting their spears into their faces, disposed of the fine flower of their manhood and went through the other maniples almost scatheless, as though their opponents had been unarmed, penetrating their masses with such slaughter as scarce to leave a fourth part of their enemies alive."

It must have been desperate for the Triarii on a very personal level- as the oldest soldiers in the army, if they did not prevail, escape would probably prove difficult.

Whilst Livy mentions officers within the maniples and centuries, there is no indication at all here that the Triarii acted as NCOs in relation to the rest of the army, nor indeed that they impeded the withdrawal of their fellows, rather the opposite is true- having opened ranks to permit their withdrawal, these were closed up again to protect them.
 
Joined Jul 2016
9,816 Posts | 1,337+
USA
For the structure of the Republican Army and its triarii one has to go to the earliest source, Polybius: Livy we believe relied upon Polybius and gives additional information.

Polybius 6.21.7 onwards states that there were 4 types of Roman infantry which formed up in separate lines, the rearmost line consisting of the Triarii. Polybiius goes on to explain that there were 30 maniples of Triarii in a legion, each maniple consisting of two centuries of 60 men each. It appears that each maniple of Triarii would have had 24 velites attached to it.

Livy, Book 8, Chapter 8, goes on to explain the structure and use of the Triarii as well as the interactions betwen the lines:

"The Romans formerly used targets; afterwards, when they began to receive pay, they made shields instead of targets; and what before constituted phalanxes similar to the Macedonian, afterwards became a line drawn up in distinct companies. At length they were divided into several centuries. A century contained sixty soldiers, two centurions, and one standard-bearer. The spearmen (hastati) formed the first line in fifteen companies, with small intervals between them: a company had twenty light-armed soldiers, the rest wearing shields; those were called light who carried only a spear and short iron javelins. This, which constituted the van in the field of battle, contained the youth in early bloom advancing towards the age of service. Next followed men of more robust age, in the same number of companies, who were called Principes, all wearing shields, and distinguished by the completest armour. This band of thirty companies they called antepilani, because there were fifteen others placed behind them with the standards; of which each company consisted of three divisions, and the first division of each they called a pilus. Each company consisted of three ensigns, and contained one hundred and eighty-six men. The first ensign was at the head of the Triarii, veteran soldiers of .tried bravery, the second, at the head of the Rorarii, men whose ability was less by reason of their age and course of service; .the third, at the head of the Accensi, a body in whom very little confidence was reposed. For this reason also they were thrown back to the rear. When the army was marshalled according to this arrangement, the spearmen first commenced the fight. If the spearmen were unable to repulse the enemy, they re treated leisurely, and were received by the Principes into the intervals of the ranks. The fight then devolved on the Principes; the spearmen followed. The Triarii continued kneeling behind the ensigns, their left leg extended forward, holding their shields resting on their shoulders, and their spears fixed in the ground, with the points erect, so that their line bristled as if enclosed by a rampart. If the Principes also did not make sufficient impression in the fight, they retreated slowly from the front to the Triarii. Hence, when a difficulty is felt, "Matters have come to the Triarii," became a usual proverb. The Triarii rising up, after receiving the Principes and spearmen into the intervals between their ranks, immediately closing their files, shut up as it were the openings; and in one compact body fell upon the enemy, no other hope being now left: that was the most formidable circumstance to the enemy, when having pursued them as vanquished, they beheld a new line suddenly starting up, increased also in strength."


Note the explanation of the kneeling pose and its reason and also the proverb "res ad triarios rediit" meaning the situation has come down to the triarii, the third line of defense (i.e., the situation is critical) (Livy)


Livy goes on to explain how the Triarii fought in the battle of Mount Vesuvius against the similarly equipped and structured Latins in 340BCE, Book 8 Ch 10-


" while the struggle continued, and in some parts of the field the Latins were prevailing by reason of their numbers, the consul Manlius learned of his colleague's end, and having paid to so memorable a death —as justice and piety demanded —its well —merited [2] meed of tears as well as praise, he was for a little while in doubt whether the moment were yet come for the triarii to rise; but afterwards deeming it better to keep them fresh for the final push, he commanded the accensi to advance from the rear before the standards. [3] no sooner had they gone up, than the Latins, supposing their enemies had done [p. 41]the same, sent in their own triarii. These having1 fought fiercely for some time, and worn themselves out and broken or blunted their spears, yet were driving back the foe, and supposed that they had already won the field and penetrated the last line, when the consul cried out to the Roman triarii: [4] “rise up now, and with fresh strength confront the weary enemy, remembering your country and your parents, your wives and your children, remembering the consul who lies dead that you may conquer.” [5] when the triarii had got to their feet, fresh and sound in their glittering armour, a new and unforeseen array, they received the antepilani into [6??] the gaps between their files, and, raising a shout, threw the enemy's front ranks into disorder, and thrusting their spears into their faces, disposed of the fine flower of their manhood and went through the other maniples almost scatheless, as though their opponents had been unarmed, penetrating their masses with such slaughter as scarce to leave a fourth part of their enemies alive."

It must have been desperate for the Triarii on a very personal level- as the oldest soldiers in the army, if they did not prevail, escape would probably prove difficult.

Whilst Livy mentions officers within the maniples and centuries, there is no indication at all here that the Triarii acted as NCOs in relation to the rest of the army, nor indeed that they impeded the withdrawal of their fellows, rather the opposite is true- having opened ranks to permit their withdrawal, these were closed up again to protect them.

Good post, well written and sourced.
 
Joined Feb 2010
5,685 Posts | 730+
Canary Islands-Spain
I only watched a couple minutes of the video, and probably won't watch it all, but I did notice that he mentions triarii being shown as kneeling--not in any *ancient* artwork! Heck, there aren't really any Roman depictions of troops that we can be sure are triarii at all! The illustrations he is thinking of are MODERN. They are not evidence. Now, if Polybius or some other Roman writer mentions triarii kneeling, there we go, solid evidence, and not subject to his opinion of it not being comfortable.



Livy's History of Rome

When the battle formation of the army was completed, the hastati were the first to engage. If they failed to repulse the enemy, they slowly retired through the intervals between the companies of the principes who then took up the fight, the hastati following in their rear. The triarii, meantime, were resting on one knee under their standards, their shields over their shoulders and their spears planted on the ground with the points upwards, giving them the appearance of a bristling palisade. If the principes were also unsuccessful, they slowly retired to the triarii, which has given rise to the proverbial saying, when people are in great difficulty "matters have come down to the triarii." When the triarii had admitted the hastati and principes through the intervals separating their companies they rose from their kneeling posture and instantly closing their companies up they blocked all passage through them and in one compact mass fell on the enemy as the last hope of the army.
 
Joined Apr 2011
3,083 Posts | 24+
New Jersey
Livy's History of Rome

When the battle formation of the army was completed, the hastati were the first to engage. If they failed to repulse the enemy, they slowly retired through the intervals between the companies of the principes who then took up the fight, the hastati following in their rear. The triarii, meantime, were resting on one knee under their standards, their shields over their shoulders and their spears planted on the ground with the points upwards, giving them the appearance of a bristling palisade. If the principes were also unsuccessful, they slowly retired to the triarii, which has given rise to the proverbial saying, when people are in great difficulty "matters have come down to the triarii." When the triarii had admitted the hastati and principes through the intervals separating their companies they rose from their kneeling posture and instantly closing their companies up they blocked all passage through them and in one compact mass fell on the enemy as the last hope of the army.
I was going to bring this up as well, but I think Matthew is aware of this and the issue is strictly with the claim about depiction.
 
Joined Jan 2015
4,856 Posts | 2,895+
MD, USA
I was going to bring this up as well, but I think Matthew is aware of this and the issue is strictly with the claim about depiction.

Thank you, I had forgotten the specific references to triarii kneeling! That only makes me roll my eyes more at Lloyd's commentary about how that must have been horribly uncomfortable, they must have done something else, blah blah blah....

Also interesting that Polybius also mentions each battle line retiring between the *files* of the next line and sheltering *between their ranks*. Whereas Livy has the "companies" widely separated and has each retiring unit pass through these large gaps and reform behind the battle line. I've never liked the idea of a battle line broken into a number of small units, each with two completely open and vulnerable flanks--this just seems like mass suicide, to me.

At one of our Roman events we had enough troops on the field to maneuver two units (c. 20 men each). One of the things we did was pass one unit right through the other, simply interfiling. It was easy. And as long as the upcoming unit was fresh and in decent order, it wouldn't matter if the one retiring was in complete disarray, the men would simply pick any gap between any two men and run through between the files.

Matthew
 

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