Were Germanii a Persian tribe?

Mnesiphilus · Feb 15, 2014

Does anyone have a good explanation for the following excerpt from Herodotus' Histories?

Now, a large number of tribes go to make up the Persian race, and not all of them were convened by Cyrus and persuaded to rebel from Median rule— only those on whom all the other tribes depended, namely the Pasargadae, the Maraphians, and the Maspians. The Pasargadae are the noblest of these peoples and include the clan of the Achaemenidae, which provides Persia with its kings. The other Persian tribes are as follows: the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, and Germanii (who all work the land), and the Daï, Mardians, Dropici, and Sagartians (who are nomadic). (Herodotus Ι – 125)

Mrbsct · Feb 15, 2014

Hmm maybye this goes along with the Aryan theory?

SafavideIrani · Feb 15, 2014

Persian? no. Iranian? yes.

Herodotus, like many other western historians, confuses the word ''Persian'' and ''Iranian''.

Labienus · Feb 15, 2014

SafavideIrani said:
Persian? no. Iranian? yes.

Herodotus, like many other western historians, confuses the word ''Persian'' and ''Iranian''.

I think that's the logical explanation.

Kartir · Feb 15, 2014

Were Germanii a Persian tribe?

Well, Herodotus thought so. I guess you're wondering if they were Germans. Very unlikely. Nothing more than name similarity, IMHO.

Mrbsct said:
Hmm maybye this goes along with the Aryan theory?

You mean the Indo-European theory of common origin of speakers of IE languages, which is normally accepted. 'Aryan' is a cultural term used only to label those who speak an Iranian language, worship Iranian gods, and generally follow an Iranian lifestyle.

nico kissos · Feb 15, 2014

Mnesiphilus said:
Does anyone have a good explanation for the following excerpt from Herodotus' Histories?

Now, a large number of tribes go to make up the Persian race, and not all of them were convened by Cyrus and persuaded to rebel from Median rule— only those on whom all the other tribes depended, namely the Pasargadae, the Maraphians, and the Maspians. The Pasargadae are the noblest of these peoples and include the clan of the Achaemenidae, which provides Persia with its kings. The other Persian tribes are as follows: the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, and Germanii (who all work the land), and the Daï, Mardians, Dropici, and Sagartians (who are nomadic). (Herodotus Ι – 125)

Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania" (in Ancient greek Καρμανία), "Kermania", "Germania", "Carmonia", and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat. Geographers have recorded Kerman's ancient name as "Go'asheer" (Bardesheer).

Petyo · Feb 15, 2014

Until recently I though the name and toponym "German" ['german]/['dʒerman] in Bulgaria were somehow connected with Germany and the Germans.
Turns out it is a Thracian word meaning "hot spring" and/or a deity connected with "heat", "draught" or "rain", etc. which later moved on in local Slavic folklore.

So, this is another possible connection. Or yet another coincidence.

Mnesiphilus · Feb 16, 2014

nico kissos said:
Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania" (in Ancient greek Καρμανία), "Kermania", "Germania", "Carmonia", and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat. Geographers have recorded Kerman's ancient name as "Go'asheer" (Bardesheer).

Thanks! This sounds reasonable.

PersianGirl · Jan 12, 2016

Germanii were indeed a Persian tribe

Mnesiphilus said:
Does anyone have a good explanation for the following excerpt from Herodotus' Histories?

Now, a large number of tribes go to make up the Persian race, and not all of them were convened by Cyrus and persuaded to rebel from Median rule— only those on whom all the other tribes depended, namely the Pasargadae, the Maraphians, and the Maspians. The Pasargadae are the noblest of these peoples and include the clan of the Achaemenidae, which provides Persia with its kings. The other Persian tribes are as follows: the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, and Germanii (who all work the land), and the Daï, Mardians, Dropici, and Sagartians (who are nomadic). (Herodotus Ι – 125)

Actually the fact that Herodotud knew the difference between different Indo-Iranian people is proven by his knowledge about the Scythians and Medes... ,

The Germanii clan were among the Persian tribes that Cyrus the great united against the Median confederation and they were Persian indeed, they still are , Germanii or Carmania is the ancient name of Kerman province and even today they are pure Persians .

Just let me remind you that Germanic languages are all derived from Persian Avestan and also the fact that Zoroaster composed the Gataha in Gothic language proves the fact that Gothic people were originally of Persian /Aryan stock .

This also explains Hitlers allance with Reza Shah (founder of the Pahlavi dynasty of Iran) , its said that even the re-naming of Persia into Iran( the land of Aryans) were suggested by Hitler himself .

PersianGirl · Jan 12, 2016

SafavideIrani said:
Persian? no. Iranian? yes.

Herodotus, like many other western historians, confuses the word ''Persian'' and ''Iranian''.

Excuse me but Mr.Safavid ( the turk) Persians were of Iranian stock, and just to remind you, Darius the great of Persia was the only one in ancient history to mentions his Aryan lineage in the Behistun inscription . " I'm a Persian , son of a Persian having Aryan lineage" .

Persians are an ancient Indo-Iranian teibe , they are even mentioned in Sanscrit and Greek mythology as Perseus the son of Zeus / Parsu ( the battle of ten kings) . Herodotus was fully aware of the lineage of the Persians and the difference between different Indo-iranian ppl, like Medes, Scythians...

So next time plz do a research before making ignorant remarks about Persian history & stick to your own Safavid ( turkic) history.

Bhrigu · Jan 13, 2016

PersianGirl said:
Just let me remind you that Germanic languages are all derived from Persian Avestan and also the fact that Zoroaster composed the Gataha in Gothic language proves the fact that Gothic people were originally of Persian /Aryan stock.

This is very misleading and simply wrong.
German is a child of Proto-Germanic which is in turn a child of Proto-Indo-European. Avestan and German belong to 2 separate branches of Indo-European tree, and they are related only through a common ancestor, which is PIE. Believing that Avestan is an ancestor language of German is very funny.

Also, Zarathustra did not compose his Gathas in Gothic. He composed them in Old Avestan which was also his mother tongue.

AlpinLuke · Jan 13, 2016

Herodotus was talking about a local population [in Persia / Iran]. The name is a coincidence.

The Germanii he mentions inhabited the region of the satrapy called "Carmania" [or Karmania]

To know more I can mention: D. Asheri, commentary on Hdt. book 1; in A Commentary on Herodotus Books I-IV [Oxford, 2007] at p. 164; New Pauly s.v. "Carmania".

Matthew Amt · Jan 13, 2016

Also, as I recall (and it's a little fuzzy!), there was no single tribe called "Germanii" in what we now call Germany. The general area was called Germania, and the Romans thought of the people as "Germans" in a collective way (similar to how many other cultures were "Celts"), but there were many different tribes under that umbrella.

They did have trousers, though...

Matthew

beorna · Jan 13, 2016

I feel as if I am back at All Empires History Forum

I'd wished I hadn't seen such claim again, Germans are Iranians, Saxons are Skythian....it is so sad, that such claims appear again and again.

Midas · Jan 13, 2016

beorna said:
I feel as if I am back at All Empires History Forum
I'd wished I hadn't seen such claim again, Germans are Iranians, Saxons are Skythian....it is so sad, that such claims appear again and again.

Cyrus Shahmiri's geist is in your room now...

beorna · Jan 13, 2016

Midas said:
Cyrus Shahmiri's geist is in your room now...

I see, we suffered both.

authun · Jan 13, 2016

Mnesiphilus said:
Does anyone have a good explanation for the following excerpt from Herodotus' Histories?

Now, a large number of tribes go to make up the Persian race, and not all of them were convened by Cyrus and persuaded to rebel from Median rule— only those on whom all the other tribes depended, namely the Pasargadae, the Maraphians, and the Maspians. The Pasargadae are the noblest of these peoples and include the clan of the Achaemenidae, which provides Persia with its kings. The other Persian tribes are as follows: the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, and Germanii (who all work the land), and the Daï, Mardians, Dropici, and Sagartians (who are nomadic). (Herodotus Ι – 125)

The Germanioi are Karmanians/Carmanians. GERMANIOI ? Encyclopaedia Iranica

It did lead to a German - Persian theory 1579-1602. Some still hang onto it.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...IKzAC#v=onepage&q=herodotus germanioi&f=false

Bart Dale · Jan 13, 2016

PersianGirl said:
Actually the fact that Herodotud knew the difference between different Indo-Iranian people is proven by his knowledge about the Scythians and Medes... ,

The Germanii clan were among the Persian tribes that Cyrus the great united against the Median confederation and they were Persian indeed, they still are , Germanii or Carmania is the ancient name of Kerman province and even today they are pure Persians .

Just let me remind you that Germanic languages are all derived from Persian Avestan and also the fact that Zoroaster composed the Gataha in Gothic language proves the fact that Gothic people were originally of Persian /Aryan stock .

This also explains Hitlers allance with Reza Shah (founder of the Pahlavi dynasty of Iran) , its said that even the re-naming of Persia into Iran( the land of Aryans) were suggested by Hitler himself .

The Germanii with two "i"s is not the same thing at the Germani with just one "i", although the words are spelled very similar. The Germani were a tribe in northern Gaul, in what is now considered to be Belgium. It is not clear what language the Germani spoke (the Belgic Celts claimed "German" descent, although the archaeological record show they spoke a Celtic language - perhaps the situation was similar to the later Franks, and Vikings, who although descended from Germanic speaking people, quickly adopted the language of the people they conquered.)

The Germanii tribe is located in a considerably different location, and since they are associated with Iranian language speaking people, probably spoke some kind of Iranian language. The "Germanii" and the "Germani" don't seem to be the same people, since their locations are so different, but just had similar sounding names. Keep in mind, the "Germani" name came from a Latin source, while the Germanii name came from a Greek source. It is probably just coincidence. There is for example, the Jewish tribe of Dan, and the New Guinea of the Dani, rather similar, but completely different people.

PS - As someone else also noted, "Germanic" languages are not descended from Persian, but are a considerably different branch of the Indo-European families of language from Persia. Celtic languages, Greek, and even Latin are all probably closer to Persian than any of the Germanic languages.

MJuingong · Jan 13, 2016

Apropos of the German/Persian language relation, it has been mentioned that the Ottomans, who used Persian as their "court language" (not law courts), viewed German as a corrupt form of Persian.

Bart Dale · Jan 14, 2016

MJuingong said:
Apropos of the German/Persian language relation, it has been mentioned that the Ottomans, who used Persian as their "court language" (not law courts), viewed German as a corrupt form of Persian.

Do you have any actual evidence that the Ottoman were so stupid to believe that?

It remains that German is vastly different from Persia and belong on a different branch on the IE languages. Persian is a Subject Object Verb language, while German is nominally a Subject Verb Object language, German has 3 grammatical genders, Persian none, Persian lacks definite articles for the most part, and the basic vocabulary, outside the common IE vocabulary, is different, and a host of other differences. IWhile the Ottomans weren't exactly rocket scientist outside of ways to kill, I can't believe the Ottomans were that bad of scholars..

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Were Germanii a Persian tribe?

Mnesiphilus

Mrbsct

SafavideIrani

Labienus

Kartir

nico kissos

Petyo

Mnesiphilus

PersianGirl

PersianGirl

Bhrigu

AlpinLuke

Matthew Amt

beorna

Midas

beorna

authun

Bart Dale

MJuingong

Bart Dale

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