Who was 16th century leading world power?

Joined Mar 2012
6,553 Posts | 2,009+
In absolute majority of their battles Winged Hussars had fewer numbers than their opponents. Dealing with nomads numbers hussars could very small. Whole problem was catching nomads, not fighting actual battle.

Do you think catching nomads and fighting them are separate matters? Battles are fought on the strategic level, not just who would break through who after formations are already deployed. The Safavid was able to stalemate the Ottomans and even capture their territory during Shah Abbas' time despite having vastly inferior sized forces because of superior mobility and logistics.


The Safavid weren't just superior to the Ottomans in a game of tag either; it was superior in field combat as well, which can be seen when in 1603, 6,000 Safavid cavalry routed 5,000 Ottomans even though the later also deployed a wagon laager and manned it with musketeers and artillery. The Safavids generally avoided superior Ottoman numbers and whenever confronted, they often won with cavalry charges throughout Abbas' reign.

In the battle of Chaldiran where the Ottomans supposed "demonstrated" their superior artillery and won the battle, the Safavid only had 20,000 against 70,000 forces. Even with vastly inferior numbers, the cavalry charge almost won the day, and both sides suffered heavy losses, and the Safavid only "lost" by withdrawing. This is also considering the fact that Ismail listened to his right wing Qizilbash commander to wait after the Ottomans deployed their cannons. According to Chase, had Ismail listened to his left wing Qizilbash commander who urged him to attack before the cannons were deployed, he might have won the battle (just like how the Jurchens were able to rout Ming armies before the later deployed their cannons at Sarhu).




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kletsk

Heavy Lithuanian cavalry had much smaller numbers, was tired because of unusually long march. Still, they managed to build 2 pontoon bridges while under fire, charged across and won the battle.

Speaking that I must give example of battle with Safavid forces makes no sense. You can't prove negative. My argument that Safavid appear strong only because they never met Winged Hussars is just as strong or weak depending on you viewpoint.


You are giving examples of Hussars fighting European and Ottoman armies, and claiming they are better than nomadic cavalries and are the best in the world because of that. The Ottoman cavalry is not a nomadic cavalry and its far inferior to real nomadic Central Eurasian cavalries further east. The Safavid-Ottoman wars already demonstrated that.

You are implying that Lithuanian Hussars are better than nomadic cavalries. I have found no evidence whatsoever of this in the encounters.
According to de Beauplan, who served in the Polish army in the 17th century said this about the Cossack army:
"On horseback they are not the best. I remember having seen only two hundred Polish horse rout 2,000 of their best men. It is true that one hundred of these cossacks, protected by their tabor, have no fear of a thousand Poles, nor even of a like number of Tatars. "
Description, 13

This implies that the Cossack infantry with a tabor (wagon circle) have no fear of Hussars. The next comment "even of a like number of Tartars", implies that de Beauplan viewed the Tartar cavalry as even better than the Polish ones.
In fact according to BL Davies:
"Against highly mobile Tatar mounted archers riding in loose or no formationthe husarz echelon charge with lance was less effective. The Quarter Army cavalry would have to rely more on their pistols and carbines and attack in smaller clusters of a few poczty to try to drive the Tatars into denser formations more vulnerable to infantry and artillery fire or lance charge; and they would have to be ready to fall back to the cover of the tabor if counterattacked by too large a mass of the enemy. A tabor of wagenburg type was especially useful to the Quarter Army because it could be formed quickly in response to a surprise attack."

Warfare, State and Society on the Black Sea Steppe, 1500-1700
p.37


Note that the Crimean tartars seem to have lacked heavy shockers (and would be one of the weaker nomadic armies), which is not the case with nomadic (or other Central Eurasian) cavalries further east.
The Mongols and Jurchens were long noted to be able to charge with bullet resistant heavy cavalry working coordination with heavy lancers within a single squadron of a 50. The Polish and Lithuanian Hussars are just heavy lancers or pistolmen, whereas the Mongol and Manchus are coordinated heavy lancers and mounted archers, with each solider riding 2-4 horses, reducing fatigue and increasing mobility.

The Jurchen army at Sarhu was able to destroy the Ming army even when the later had wagons, firearms, and superior numbers.
 
Joined Feb 2015
657 Posts | 15+
washington
How can the Ottomans not be number 1? Under Selim I they easily and quickly conquered the Mamluks. Under Suleiman they would only massively increase their power. They crushed their longtime rival Hungary, repeatedly defeated the Safavids and won several great naval victories against Spain and the Italian states. Even if they weren't able to decisively defeat Austria they still beat them at Grocka, and the sieges of Buda and Pest.

It wasn't until after Suleimans death that they really suffered a defeat in the battle of Lepanto and even then it had no immediate strategic consequences.The Ottomans were able to completely rebuild their fleet and conquer Cyprus from the Venetians. Then in 1574 they were able to recapture Tunis.

They then defeated the Safavids and gained massive amounts of territory that they would hold until the reign of Shah Abbas. Now the 1600's are a different story entirely, but the Ottomans ruled supreme during the 1500's.
 
Joined Nov 2017
866 Posts | 24+
Győr
Last edited:
How can the Ottomans not be number 1? Under Selim I they easily and quickly conquered the Mamluks. Under Suleiman they would only massively increase their power. They crushed their longtime rival Hungary, repeatedly defeated the Safavids and won several great naval victories against Spain and the Italian states. Even if they weren't able to decisively defeat Austria they still beat them at Grocka, and the sieges of Buda and Pest.

It wasn't until after Suleimans death that they really suffered a defeat in the battle of Lepanto and even then it had no immediate strategic consequences.The Ottomans were able to completely rebuild their fleet and conquer Cyprus from the Venetians. Then in 1574 they were able to recapture Tunis.

They then defeated the Safavids and gained massive amounts of territory that they would hold until the reign of Shah Abbas. Now the 1600's are a different story entirely, but the Ottomans ruled supreme during the 1500's.

Ottoman cavalry was weak-point of the Ottoman army. Thist proved to be true in every Ottoman clash with Hungarian knights. Only the large Ottoman infantry could save the day in each case.
 
Joined Mar 2014
2,291 Posts | 328+
Lithuania
Do you think catching nomads and fighting them are separate matters? Battles are fought on the strategic level, not just who would break through who after formations are already deployed. The Safavid was able to stalemate the Ottomans and even capture their territory during Shah Abbas' time despite having vastly inferior sized forces because of superior mobility and logistics.


The Safavid weren't just superior to the Ottomans in a game of tag either; it was superior in field combat as well, which can be seen when in 1603, 6,000 Safavid cavalry routed 5,000 Ottomans even though the later also deployed a wagon laager and manned it with musketeers and artillery. The Safavids generally avoided superior Ottoman numbers and whenever confronted, they often won with cavalry charges throughout Abbas' reign.

In the battle of Chaldiran where the Ottomans supposed "demonstrated" their superior artillery and won the battle, the Safavid only had 20,000 against 70,000 forces. Even with vastly inferior numbers, the cavalry charge almost won the day, and both sides suffered heavy losses, and the Safavid only "lost" by withdrawing. This is also considering the fact that Ismail listened to his right wing Qizilbash commander to wait after the Ottomans deployed their cannons. According to Chase, had Ismail listened to his left wing Qizilbash commander who urged him to attack before the cannons were deployed, he might have won the battle (just like how the Jurchens were able to rout Ming armies before the later deployed their cannons at Sarhu).







You are giving examples of Hussars fighting European and Ottoman armies, and claiming they are better than nomadic cavalries and are the best in the world because of that. The Ottoman cavalry is not a nomadic cavalry and its far inferior to real nomadic Central Eurasian cavalries further east. The Safavid-Ottoman wars already demonstrated that.

You are implying that Lithuanian Hussars are better than nomadic cavalries. I have found no evidence whatsoever of this in the encounters.
According to de Beauplan, who served in the Polish army in the 17th century said this about the Cossack army:
"On horseback they are not the best. I remember having seen only two hundred Polish horse rout 2,000 of their best men. It is true that one hundred of these cossacks, protected by their tabor, have no fear of a thousand Poles, nor even of a like number of Tatars. "
Description, 13

This implies that the Cossack infantry with a tabor (wagon circle) have no fear of Hussars. The next comment "even of a like number of Tartars", implies that de Beauplan viewed the Tartar cavalry as even better than the Polish ones.
In fact according to BL Davies:
"Against highly mobile Tatar mounted archers riding in loose or no formationthe husarz echelon charge with lance was less effective. The Quarter Army cavalry would have to rely more on their pistols and carbines and attack in smaller clusters of a few poczty to try to drive the Tatars into denser formations more vulnerable to infantry and artillery fire or lance charge; and they would have to be ready to fall back to the cover of the tabor if counterattacked by too large a mass of the enemy. A tabor of wagenburg type was especially useful to the Quarter Army because it could be formed quickly in response to a surprise attack."

Warfare, State and Society on the Black Sea Steppe, 1500-1700
p.37


Note that the Crimean tartars seem to have lacked heavy shockers (and would be one of the weaker nomadic armies), which is not the case with nomadic (or other Central Eurasian) cavalries further east.
The Mongols and Jurchens were long noted to be able to charge with bullet resistant heavy cavalry working coordination with heavy lancers within a single squadron of a 50. The Polish and Lithuanian Hussars are just heavy lancers or pistolmen, whereas the Mongol and Manchus are coordinated heavy lancers and mounted archers, with each solider riding 2-4 horses, reducing fatigue and increasing mobility.

The Jurchen army at Sarhu was able to destroy the Ming army even when the later had wagons, firearms, and superior numbers.

Have you even looked at source battle that I showed? 7000 Lithuanian cavalrymen crushed 20 000 Tatar cavalry. At this period of time Tatars were stronger than other Mongol successor states, still they raided villages and stole peasants, but when Hussars came to field they usually run away and hid behind fortress defending Crimean peninsula. No one who actually saw Winged Hussars in battle said that they were "just something". For few hundreds of years they were dominant cavalry that fought Tatars of Golden Horde and Crimea, Russians, Turks, Germans, Swedes and no cavalry could stand against them without overwhelming superiority in numbers. So what that they could't charge into fortified lager defended by canons and guns? Maybe you can give example of Safavid doing that (There is actually mention of Husars charging through field fortifications in one battle actually :) ) If nomad cavalry was actually better, give me example of battle where they actually won battle against hussars with equal numbers? They shared huge border so there should have been plenty of opportunities for such battle.
 
Joined Nov 2017
866 Posts | 24+
Győr
Have you even looked at source battle that I showed? 7000 Lithuanian cavalrymen crushed 20 000 Tatar cavalry. At this period of time Tatars were stronger than other Mongol successor states, still they raided villages and stole peasants, but when Hussars came to field they usually run away and hid behind fortress defending Crimean peninsula. No one who actually saw Winged Hussars in battle said that they were "just something". For few hundreds of years they were dominant cavalry that fought Tatars of Golden Horde and Crimea, Russians, Turks, Germans, Swedes and no cavalry could stand against them without overwhelming superiority in numbers. So what that they could't charge into fortified lager defended by canons and guns? Maybe you can give example of Safavid doing that (There is actually mention of Husars charging through field fortifications in one battle actually :) ) If nomad cavalry was actually better, give me example of battle where they actually won battle against hussars with equal numbers? They shared huge border so there should have been plenty of opportunities for such battle.


Weren't the Lithuanians and tatars smashed regularly by Hungarian knights during King Louis the Great?
 
Joined Nov 2017
866 Posts | 24+
Győr
Last edited:
The best and most famous cavalry was traditionally the Hungarian, without any doubt. Hungarian hussar was the only type of cavalry and tactics which was adopted later by all Western European powers. Even the US cavalry was created by Hungarian Mihály Kovács, who was invited by the first US government against British troops in America.
 
Joined Mar 2014
2,291 Posts | 328+
Lithuania
Weren't the Lithuanians and tatars smashed regularly by Hungarian knights during King Louis the Great?

Nothing comes to mind at least as far as Lithuanians go. Tatars were raiding everyone around and when caught by professional forces occasionally lost.
 
Joined Mar 2014
2,291 Posts | 328+
Lithuania
The best and most famous cavalry was traditionally the Hungarian, without any doubt. Hungarian hussar was the only type of cavalry and tactics which was adopted later by all Western European powers. Even the US cavalry was created by Hungarian Mihály Kovács, who was invited by the first US government against British troops in America.

Winged Hussars that I try to advocate for were created after military reform made by Hungarian king of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania Steponas Batoras. They were mixture of multiple cavalry traditions.
 
Joined Nov 2017
866 Posts | 24+
Győr
Last edited:
Nothing comes to mind at least as far as Lithuanians go. Tatars were raiding everyone around and when caught by professional forces occasionally lost.

Louis the Great's Hungarian knights stopped the Lithuanians who regularly waged wars against the Poles. Tatars and Lithuanians lost all of their wars against Hungary.
 
Joined Nov 2017
866 Posts | 24+
Győr
Winged Hussars that I try to advocate for were created after military reform made by Hungarian king of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania Steponas Batoras. They were mixture of multiple cavalry traditions.

It was not the winged Hussars which were adopted and admired by all Western European countries, but the Hungarian hussars, their tactics and especially their sword play was famous in the west. That's why Hungarian Hussars became the adopted role model of cavalry in Western Europe.
 
Joined Mar 2014
2,291 Posts | 328+
Lithuania
Louis the Great's Hungarian knights stopped the Lithuanians who regularly waged wars against the Poles. Tatars and Lithuanians lost all of their wars against Hungary.

In period that we are speaking of Lithuania and Poland was one country. Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. In times when Lithuanians actually waged war against Poland Hungary had better things to do than interfere. They were fending of Mongols.
 
Joined Nov 2017
866 Posts | 24+
Győr
In period that we are speaking of Lithuania and Poland was one country. Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. In times when Lithuanians actually waged war against Poland Hungary had better things to do than interfere. They were fending of Mongols.

Wrong.

615px-Lands_under_Louis_the_Great_in_the_middle_of_the_14th_century.jpg


Countries under the rule of Louis the Great.

After Lithuanians lost the war against Hungary, Lithuanians WERE FORCED to stop all WARS against Poland.

Lithuania was an old enemy of Poland that time.
 
Joined Jan 2017
7,817 Posts | 3,302+
Republika Srpska
Wrong.

615px-Lands_under_Louis_the_Great_in_the_middle_of_the_14th_century.jpg


Countries under the rule of Louis the Great.

After Lithuanians lost the war against Hungary, Lithuanians WERE FORCED to stop all WARS against Poland.

Lithuania was an old enemy of Poland that time.
The map is a bit misleading. While both Bosnia and Serbia were Hungarian vassals, the Hungarian rule was not felt in those regions, they were ruled by local princes or in the case of Bosnia kings. Hungary would become much more involved in the Balkans during Sigismund's time.
 
Joined Feb 2018
50 Posts | 0+
Turkey
The best and most famous cavalry was traditionally the Hungarian, without any doubt. Hungarian hussar was the only type of cavalry and tactics which was adopted later by all Western European powers. Even the US cavalry was created by Hungarian Mihály Kovács, who was invited by the first US government against British troops in America.


Mamluks were better than Hungarian. They were able to stop Mongol invasion.

But both Mamluks and Hungary destroyed by OE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mohács
 
Joined Apr 2015
2,010 Posts | 27+
Serbia
The map is a bit misleading. While both Bosnia and Serbia were Hungarian vassals, the Hungarian rule was not felt in those regions, they were ruled by local princes or in the case of Bosnia kings. Hungary would become much more involved in the Balkans during Sigismund's time.

Not only that, the map is awfully imprecise.
 
Joined Apr 2015
2,010 Posts | 27+
Serbia
As for the Jannisaries being "the only standing army of the sultan" and "the cavalry being neglected after the Long Turkish War":

kYUvmHo.png


G. Agoston, "Ottoman Military Organization (up to 1800)", The Encyclopedia of War. First Edition, ed. G. Martel, Blackwell Publishing, 2012, p. 4.

What is often overlooked by the historians is the fact that the timariot cavalry was replaced by other types of cavalry. The Ottomans maintained the general balance of 57%:43% (infantry:cavalry), even when less than 12% of army were from timariots (the 1697-1698 campaign against the Habsburgs).
 
Joined Mar 2012
6,553 Posts | 2,009+
Last edited:
Have you even looked at source battle that I showed? 7000 Lithuanian cavalrymen crushed 20 000 Tatar cavalry.

It's wikipedia, I don't trust it, do you have an original source? Even here, wiki states that the 20,000 was only the force the Tatars had total, not in that particular battle, in fact it was stated that "the Tatars sent half of their force in smaller groups to pillage surrounding areas." So it sounds like the Tatar had no more than 10,000, if even that, considering its scouting information and we don't have Tatar sources. Alan Fisher noted that Tatar forces are often exaggerated in numbers and that their total army in the whole Khanate was only 40,000-50,000. Furthermore, this is just one battle (the Lithuanian led by a tartar general too), (and we also have cases of Chinese armies beating Mongols with comparable numbers even when its not the norm) whereas de Beauplan implies Tatar cavalry to be superior through actual analogy.


At this period of time Tatars were stronger than other Mongol successor states, still they raided villages and stole peasants, but when Hussars came to field they usually run away and hid behind fortress defending Crimean peninsula.


Not even close. Are you seriously implying that the small Crimean state is more powerful than the Mughal and the Northern Yuan? The Golden Horde was always a distant vassal of the Yuan when it was at its height and at no time did it ever eclipse the Mongol homeland in the Inner Asian world. The Northern Yuan under Altan Qan was by far the most powerful steppe empire on the planet in the 16th century. It stretched from the Kunlun mountains on the Tibetan Plateau in the southwest to Manchuria in the east and north into Qaraqorum and Siberia and south into the Ordos, raiding right up into the outskirts of Beijing.

Mongolia_XVI.png



So what that they could't charge into fortified lager defended by canons and guns? Maybe you can give example of Safavid doing that (There is actually mention of Husars charging through field fortifications in one battle actually :) )

The Safavid did just that at Chaldiran (even defeated they inflicted heavy casualties with only around 1/3 the number of Ottomans), and the Jurchens did it and routed the Ming soldiers at Sarhu (charging right through trenches, field fortification and firearms).

At Chaldiran, the Safavid cavalry completely annihilated the Ottoman cavalries, and only the field artillery saved the Ottomans. As Knolls noted in his History of the Turks; "besides his common footmen, of whom he made least reckoning, he (Selim) lost most part of his Illirian, Macedonian, Servian, Epirot, Thessalian and Thracian horsemen, the undoubted flower and strength of his army, which were in that mortall battel almost all slaine or grievously wounded."

If nomad cavalry was actually better, give me example of battle where they actually won battle against hussars with equal numbers? They shared huge border so there should have been plenty of opportunities for such battle.

The single example you gave was not exhaustive, lacked context, and is neither scholarly or primary. Furthermore, nomadic cavalry is a very generic term that include cavalries from Mongolia to Central Asia and the Crimean steppe. Not all of them were equally equipped, organized, or disciplined (I'm not even aware that the Crimean tatars had 3 or more mounts per rider), nor did they fight the same way. The Mongols and Jurchens in the east not only had heavy lancers that can shatter pike and shot formations, they had mounted archers working in conjunction with these lancers in rotational charges as well as multiple mounts per rider to replace losses and increase speed in traveling. The Hussars does not have these characteristics; their victories also usually involved infantry where they can fall back on in the case of a counterattack.

You are also ignoring the fundamental strength of nomadic cavalries; self sufficiency in logistics and mobility that sedentary cavalries does not have in drawn out campaigns. Warfare isn't simple tactics, it is fought on the strategic dimension.
 
Joined Mar 2014
2,291 Posts | 328+
Lithuania
It's wikipedia, I don't trust it, do you have an original source? Even here, wiki states that the 20,000 was only the force the Tatars had total, not in that particular battle, in fact it was stated that "the Tatars sent half of their force in smaller groups to pillage surrounding areas." So it sounds like the Tatar had no more than 10,000, if even that, considering its scouting information and we don't have Tatar sources. Alan Fisher noted that Tatar forces are often exaggerated in numbers and that their total army in the whole Khanate was only 40,000-50,000. Furthermore, this is just one battle (the Lithuanian led by a tartar general too), (and we also have cases of Chinese armies beating Mongols with comparable numbers even when its not the norm) whereas de Beauplan implies Tatar cavalry to be superior through actual analogy.





Not even close. Are you seriously implying that the small Crimean state is more powerful than the Mughal and the Northern Yuan? The Golden Horde was always a distant vassal of the Yuan when it was at its height and at no time did it ever eclipse the Mongol homeland in the Inner Asian world. The Northern Yuan under Altan Qan was by far the most powerful steppe empire on the planet in the 16th century. It stretched from the Kunlun mountains on the Tibetan Plateau in the southwest to Manchuria in the east and north into Qaraqorum and Siberia and south into the Ordos, raiding right up into the outskirts of Beijing.

Mongolia_XVI.png





The Safavid did just that at Chaldiran (even defeated they inflicted heavy casualties with only around 1/3 the number of Ottomans), and the Jurchens did it and routed the Ming soldiers at Sarhu (charging right through trenches, field fortification and firearms).

At Chaldiran, the Safavid cavalry completely annihilated the Ottoman cavalries, and only the field artillery saved the Ottomans. As Knolls noted in his History of the Turks; "besides his common footmen, of whom he made least reckoning, he (Selim) lost most part of his Illirian, Macedonian, Servian, Epirot, Thessalian and Thracian horsemen, the undoubted flower and strength of his army, which were in that mortall battel almost all slaine or grievously wounded."



The single example you gave was not exhaustive, lacked context, and is neither scholarly or primary. Furthermore, nomadic cavalry is a very generic term that include cavalries from Mongolia to Central Asia and the Crimean steppe. Not all of them were equally equipped, organized, or disciplined (I'm not even aware that the Crimean tatars had 3 or more mounts per rider), nor did they fight the same way. The Mongols and Jurchens in the east not only had heavy lancers that can shatter pike and shot formations, they had mounted archers working in conjunction with these lancers in rotational charges as well as multiple mounts per rider to replace losses and increase speed in traveling. The Hussars does not have these characteristics; their victories also usually involved infantry where they can fall back on in the case of a counterattack.

You are also ignoring the fundamental strength of nomadic cavalries; self sufficiency in logistics and mobility that sedentary cavalries does not have in drawn out campaigns. Warfare isn't simple tactics, it is fought on the strategic dimension.

Speaking about states that were not in contact with Europeans is pointless. My statement about strength of Mongol successor states was not clears enough. Crimean Tatars were strongest from Mongols successors that had contact with Europeans in 16 th century. Article in Wiki was with citations, it is hard to find English sources about less known battles in Central Europe. Even massive defeat that Tatars received at first Battle of Blue Waters is has almost no research done in English language.

Facts remain, in 16 th century steppe nomads power was shrinking. Their mobility helped them to raid and take captives, but they had a lot of troubles keeping territory. In near future all of them who were in contact with Europeans were defeated. My article might not be strong evidence, but you can"t give no example at all. Please provide any battle in 16th century were eastern steppe nomads defeated Winged Hussars without numerical superiority. You can choose any nation, they might have any number of horses per man 1, 2, 3 or 20. It is clear from the maps that Lithuania and Poland had very long border in Central Asia, so there lots of opportunities for those people to come and beat Winged Hussars.

P. S. This article didn't mention that but from memory I can say that this particular army beaten near Kleck had multiple remounts. Don't remember how many per man and such numbers mostly are speculation anyway. They could retreat, but chose to stay and fight, because they believed, that they are stronger.
 
Joined Mar 2014
2,291 Posts | 328+
Lithuania
Wrong.

615px-Lands_under_Louis_the_Great_in_the_middle_of_the_14th_century.jpg


Countries under the rule of Louis the Great.

After Lithuanians lost the war against Hungary, Lithuanians WERE FORCED to stop all WARS against Poland.

Lithuania was an old enemy of Poland that time.

Do you have date and Name of the war or battle, because nothing comes to my mind.
 

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