Who was the better President ? Thomas Jefferson or John Adams

Who was the better president?


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Joined Mar 2011
1,875 Posts | 0+
Georgia USA
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We have the dullard Washington who got out just in time to be baptized a saint, but the rest of the Founding Fathers faced some tough times and even tougher questions.

In an Adam's /Jefferson thread you decide to call
George Washington a dullard ? :suspicious:

... and say that "the rest" of the Founding Fathers had tough times ?
and tougher questions ?

So did you just glance at your books on Washington
or have you actually read them ? :persevere:

" the dullard Washington " ?
... really ? :sad:

Sure, Jefferson faced tough questions.... trouble is he came up with bad answers.

How do you evaluate someone's legacy except by weighing their accomplishments against their flaws? ... This is a history forum isn't it ?
 
Joined Dec 2010
278 Posts | 9+
Southwest U.S.
In an Adam's /Jefferson thread you decide to call
George Washington a dullard ? :suspicious:

... and say that "the rest" of the Founding Fathers had tough times ?
and tougher questions ?

So did you just glance at your books on Washington
or have you actually read them ? :persevere:

" the dullard Washington " ?
... really ? :sad:
Couldn't agree more Alexander!
 
Joined Aug 2010
8,654 Posts | 844+
VA
In an Adam's /Jefferson thread you decide to call
George Washington a dullard ? :suspicious:

... and say that "the rest" of the Founding Fathers had tough times ?
and tougher questions ?

So did you just glance at your books on Washington
or have you actually read them ? :persevere:

" the dullard Washington " ?
... really ? :sad:

Sure, Jefferson faced tough questions.... trouble is he came up with bad answers.

How do you evaluate someone's legacy except by weighing their accomplishments against their flaws? ... This is a history forum isn't it ?
I'm also going to have to completely agree here.
 
Joined Mar 2011
1,875 Posts | 0+
Georgia USA
I just think that Jefferson deserves a better defense than just saying lay off... or admitting he had flaws... or taking jabs at Washington and Hamilton.

To be quite honest... I believe that even I could offer up a better defense of the man than those in this forum that worship him ... I'd be talking out the side of my mouth... but I could do it.

It's actually Jefferson that has been sainted in our society... and yet what was his hurculean effort ?

I mean please someone offer up some meat ...
not just " stop the attacks "

and yes... I will attempt to blast the meaty response out of the water.
So what?.... life will still go on... It's just a debate.:D
 
Joined Mar 2009
25,361 Posts | 13+
Texas
In an Adam's /Jefferson thread you decide to call
George Washington a dullard ? :suspicious:

... and say that "the rest" of the Founding Fathers had tough times ?
and tougher questions ?

So did you just glance at your books on Washington
or have you actually read them ? :persevere:

" the dullard Washington " ?
... really ? :sad:

Sure, Jefferson faced tough questions.... trouble is he came up with bad answers.

How do you evaluate someone's legacy except by weighing their accomplishments against their flaws? ... This is a history forum isn't it ?

Yes, I meant every word of what I wrote and I stand by it fully and completely.
Come up with fresh Jefferson points and only then we can begin to talk, other wise,
continue to pat yourself on the back and give yourself high fives as I won't.
Jefferson's legacy and image is here to stay, guess you're going to have to get used to it.
 
Joined Aug 2010
8,654 Posts | 844+
VA
Yes, I meant every word of what I wrote and I stand by it fully and completely.
Come up with fresh Jefferson points and only then we can begin to talk, other wise,
continue to pat yourself on the back and give yourself high fives as I won't.
Jefferson's legacy and image is here to stay, guess you're going to have to get used to it.
How delightfully narrow-minded.
 
Joined Mar 2009
25,361 Posts | 13+
Texas
How delightfully narrow-minded.

If someone talks to me about something, then I listen and learn and add
to the discussion in kind fellowship.
If someone attempts to grab me by the scruff
of the neck and force me to inhale their poison, then I give back
what I was given. I can be bull headed or I can be a kind, giving
and delightful friend. But if someone wants to bullfrog fight, let's go,
you're a day late. But as Jefferson wrote:

"Why should we add to them (war) by voluntarily distressing and destroying one another? Peace, brothers, is better than war.
In a long and bloody war, we lose many friends, and gain nothing. Let us then live in peace and friendship together,
doing to each other all the good we can."


I'd much rather have what Jefferson wrote. Peace and friends.
 
Joined Aug 2010
8,654 Posts | 844+
VA
Last edited:
If someone talks to me about something, then I listen and learn and add
to the discussion in kind fellowship.
If someone attempts to grab me by the scruff
of the neck and force me to inhale their poison, then I give back
what I was given. I can be bull headed or I can be a kind, giving
and delightful friend. But if someone wants to bullfrog fight, let's go,
you're a day late. But as Jefferson wrote:
"Why should we add to them (war) by voluntarily distressing and destroying one another? Peace, brothers, is better than war. In a long and bloody war, we lose many friends, and gain nothing. Let us then live in peace and friendship together, doing to each other all the good we can."

I'd much rather have what Jefferson wrote. Peace and friends.
While I hate to be discourteous to a respected forum member, I frankly find your arrogance to be off-putting. There is nothing wrong with healthy discussion, and I hardly find your statement that Washington was a "dullard" to be a unassailable position, or even a relevant statement to the topic.

If someone attempts to grab me by the scruff
of the neck and force me to inhale their poison
Can you point to where anybody has attempted to force you to do anything? It's not as if as you can actually coerced here.
 
Joined Mar 2011
1,875 Posts | 0+
Georgia USA
Last edited:
If someone talks to me about something, then I listen and learn and add
to the discussion in kind fellowship.
If someone attempts to grab me by the scruff
of the neck and force me to inhale their poison, then I give back
what I was given. I can be bull headed or I can be a kind, giving
and delightful friend. But if someone wants to bullfrog fight, let's go,
you're a day late. But as Jefferson wrote:

"Why should we add to them (war) by voluntarily distressing and destroying one another? Peace, brothers, is better than war.
In a long and bloody war, we lose many friends, and gain nothing. Let us then live in peace and friendship together,
doing to each other all the good we can."

You somehow have decided that this was all about you, havent you?

You are actually talking about me grabbing you by the scruff of your neck ? ...
and then making you inhale my poison?...
are you honestly serious?

Who on earth is denying the fact that you can be a delightful friend ?
If you have some doubt... NOT ME.
 
Joined Mar 2011
1,875 Posts | 0+
Georgia USA
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To be quit honest TJ ... until you called Washington a dullard...
My posts were aimed at ALL 16 people that voted for Jefferson...
not just you.

I actually understand your position on Jefferson... and OBVIOUSLY you and everyone else are aloud to have that opinion.

I have more of an issue with the fact that I know that you are ONE of the 16 that voted ... and (for the most part) the other 15 seem to not want to tell why... or don't know why they like him. (sorry, maybe 11 -12 of them)

The argument for him always seems to be the Louisiana Purchase or the Declaration of Independance... with maybe a religous freedom or University of Virginia thrown in .
(all, by the way, valid in some way or another)
(as, I believe, are mine against)

So I ask you ...
why do my arguments against need to be "fresher"
than the repeated argumments for ?

I honestly would hope that you would try to see this as us having a beer at a bar... and you calling Hamilton a manipulative egomaniac (with a laugh and a pat on my back)... and me retorting that Jefferson was a silly dreamer (laughing while I said it)
Then we can comment on the awsome rack on that woman that just walked by...
I got the next round !!

relax:D
 
Joined May 2012
847 Posts | 0+
Puerto Rico
Jefferson's policy towards Haiti is something of a stain for me, so I'll give it to Adams.
 
Joined May 2014
31,535 Posts | 3,565+
SoCal
Jefferson for the Louisiana Purchase and due to Adams' reputation being tainted by the Alien and Sedition Acts.
 
Joined Oct 2009
23,286 Posts | 99+
Maryland
Funny how opinions change over time - I very strongly prefer Adams, now.
 
Joined Dec 2011
13,583 Posts | 5,948+
Iowa USA
Funny how opinions change over time - I very strongly prefer Adams, now.

Interesting comment.

Can you imagine preferring Jefferson again as a result of further study?

The book by John Ellis, "Founding Brothers" which I finished about 17-20 years ago was probably the study material that moved me to consider Adams the better leader of the two. As I've read more on Early America in the last four years I also see Adams Presidency as better for the nation than Jefferson's.
 
Joined May 2013
1,696 Posts | 11+
Colorado
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Without a doubt, John Adams.

Jefferson was a demagogue who said he embraced the ideals of liberty, but in the end as a slaveholder could not see the inherent contradiction in his position. His failure (along with Madison and Monroe) helped assure the Civil War. He had the stature to help end it and they could have implemented such a policy.

Adams on the other hand assured one of the most important things which even today many nations cannot do - a smooth transition of political power to those not only of different views, but to one's strident political opponents.

Adams kept us out of a war with European powers which we would have lost, thereby, again helping save the Union. Jefferson did everything he could to undermine Adams.

(It might seem odd for a native Virginian such as myself to prefer Adams, but by the time Washington totally broke off his relationship with Jefferson in 1796, he had the full measure of Jefferson.)
 
Joined Jul 2012
5,182 Posts | 494+
Right Here
About a tie in my book. Both had some major achievements and some screw ups. All the important ones have already been mentioned other than I'll add the Embargo to Jefferson's screw up list.

I'll also add Washington to this tie list. Nothing I can think of was a major screw up on his part, but neither was he as bold as Jefferson or Adams in driving for a singular vision for the young republic.

All three were positive influences on the country in one way or another. It isn't until Madison that I find a presidential performance to be pretty weak.

What would be a more interesting question for me would be "who was the more interesting revolutionary figure, Adams or Jefferson."
 
Joined May 2013
1,696 Posts | 11+
Colorado
Washington was not an educated man and he knew this. But he had an uncanny natural intelligence. When he took office, there were no precedents for what he did or even for what the nation was or what it was going to become. Jefferson had a view of the new United States. It was rural and agricultural and slave holding. Washington saw this was not sustainable and embraced the US becoming a new type of nation: a republic with a new banking system, a new financial system and based on manufacturing. Had Jefferson had his way and had Washington not seen the genius of Hamilton, we would have remained at the mercy of Europe.
 
Joined Jul 2012
5,182 Posts | 494+
Right Here
Washington was not an educated man and he knew this. But he had an uncanny natural intelligence. When he took office, there were no precedents for what he did or even for what the nation was or what it was going to become. Jefferson had a view of the new United States. It was rural and agricultural and slave holding. Washington saw this was not sustainable and embraced the US becoming a new type of nation: a republic with a new banking system, a new financial system and based on manufacturing. Had Jefferson had his way and had Washington not seen the genius of Hamilton, we would have remained at the mercy of Europe.
If this is in response to my post, I couldn't agree more that Washington was a very intelligent man. I also agree he set some important precedents.

But let's clarify a couple things. While Jefferson embraced an agricultural and slave society, Washington was no more an abolitionist than Jefferson (but, yes, Hamilton was one).

Second, the U.S. financial system wasn't original thinking on Hamilton's part, Hamilton looked at the Bank of England and thought "the U.S. needs something much like that." Likewise on an economy based on manufacturing.

I'm not dissing Hamilton in any way, but it doesn't take a 'genius' to copy
previous ideas, it just takes a highly intelligent man who sees the value of using those ideas to advantage. Like our first three presidents, Hamilton was a very intelligent guy and just as important a founder.

I'm more of a strong central government guy than not, so much of my natural sympathies lie with the Federalists over the Jeffersonians. (especially with the federal government taking a lead role in internal improvements in that era). But when doing history I try as much as humanly possible to keep my personal political views out of it and try to be objective as possible. Sometimes I fail; I can't possibly set aside my personal views that slavery sucked when discussing the Civil War. :think:

But you're going to have to try to convince me that Jefferson's vision for the U.S. would necessarily have left the U.S. at the mercy of Europe for any extended length of time. It couldn't have to do with slavery because the U.S. was out from under Europe's thumb long before slavery was abolished (I'd mark the end of the War of 1812 as the end of U.S. subservience).

What is your argument that supports that claim? Just what is it about manufacturing over agriculture and/or the banking system you see as absolutely necessary for finally making the U.S. a truly independent nation?
 
Joined Jul 2012
5,182 Posts | 494+
Right Here
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Jefferson was a demagogue who said he embraced the ideals of liberty, but in the end as a slaveholder could not see the inherent contradiction in his position. His failure (along with Madison and Monroe) helped assure the Civil War. He had the stature to help end it and they could have implemented such a policy.
I was just reading backwards through the thread and I saw this, so I have couple complaints with this I'll mention.

Jefferson did say somethings in the Declaration of Independence that seem hypocritical today and perhaps were in his time, too. but let's remember a couple things; 1) 12 years after the DOI, among the signers of the Constitution that made slavery legal in the U.S. were ant-slavery men such as Alexander Hamilton. They signed it because freedom for slaves was not anywhere near a priority compared to unifying the 13 states under a stronger central government. All of the signers believed in liberty, but liberty for whom and at what price? Jefferson was the only hypocrite of his time? not by a long shot. They all signed the document that eventually led to the Civil War.

The fact is that in the early republic the very small number of abolitionists were busy enough starting to end slavery in the northern states where slavery was never central to the economy. The belief that a small group, yet alone one single man had the influence at that point to end slavery in all 13 states is fanciful thinking.

If one man could have had any influence it would have been Washington rather than Jefferson because he was far more widely respected and beloved by Americans throughout the country than Jefferson was. And even he couldn't possibly have made a dent in ending slavery in that era. The only solution to ending slavery in the early USA was not to sign the Constitution, let the country split in two, call the north the USA and give the south another name as a separate nation. Sorry, but that's the reality of the situation.

And to blame Jefferson or anyone else of that period for helping make the Civil War happen is silly. No one then could have foreseen a war of such magnitude, violence, death and destruction for their was no historical precedent for such a thing. Even at the beginning of the war itself, most Americans believed the Civil War was going to be a short affair. We should actually blame TJ, Madison and Monroe for the Civil War? How could anyone bother to end slavery over a war they couldn't imagine?

Yes, Jefferson wrote that every man was entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit. Here he and everyone who signed the DOI were clear, they meant men and not women. What they were less clear about is that at best some meant white men now, blacks later. Of course some meant blacks never, but I don't think there is evidence to show that was Jefferson's position. Some things he said indicates he for was ending slavery at some point, but there more pressing matters. (You know, like starting a banking system and promoting manufacturing, or maybe that was someone other than Jefferson? )

That's not much unlike Lincoln who chose trying to save the nation from war by letting slavery exist for awhile longer and take a log term approach by beginning its eradication by keeping it contained. Of course, the slave owners weren't interested in that and the war came and Lincoln ended up with both things he wanted.

Its a lovely thought that someone should have done something early on to prevent the Civil War. But that's all it is, a lovey thought.
 
Joined May 2013
1,696 Posts | 11+
Colorado
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Nope, it wasn't just a lovely thought. Many Founders from the south struggled with it from Laurens to Washington. Positions started to harden and it went from a necessary evil to an institution Biblically blessed. Jefferson's lifestyle was done on the backs of his slaves and it included him selling his own children he had with various slaves. Sally Hemings was not an isolated incident. His letters include him deciding which of his children he would free and which he would sell. Jefferson's own writings show him knowing that he was pushing the can down the road and the ending of the institution wasn't going to be pretty. But no one should be surprised. His actions as Virginia's Governor shows personal cowardace not once but twice, from running from the defense of Richmond to then hightailing it out of Charlottesville. He is vastly overrated as a man and as a President.
 
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