Was nudity the norm in Ancient India?

[Ajanbahu]

Xuanzang ( lived in India from 629 to 643) once again to my help

There are four orders of hereditary clan distinctions. The first
is that of the Brahmins or "purely living"; these keep their
principles and liveconlinently, strictly observing ceremonial
purity. The second order is that of the Kshatriyas, the race of
kings ; this order has held sovereignty for many generations, and
its aims are benevolence and mercy. The third order is that of
the "Vaisyaa or class of traders, who barter commodities and
pursue gain far and near. The fourth class is that of the Sudras
or agriculturists; these toil at cultivating the soil and are industrious
at sowing and reaping. These four castes form classes
of various degrees of ceremonial purity. The members of a
caste marry within the caste, the great and the obscure keeping
apart. Relations whether by the father's or the mother's side
do not intermarry, and a woman never contracts a second
marriage. There are also the mixed castes; numerous clans
formed by groups of people according to their kinds, and these
cannot be described.

He was describing in general terms as anyone would, exceptions might have been there just as many tourists finding India hot does not mean that Leh or Sikkim are not in India.


Please know that unlike Greeks, Xuanzang knew sanskrit, lived in India for more than a decade and could distinguish easily between local languages as he spoke them imperfectly, finally, he has been proven accurate by many archaeologists. Nalanada University was found in ruins on basis of distance mentioned by him.

In sanskrit dramas, I do not find widows marrying at all as a general rule despite smritis allowing it just as it was almost non existent in many parts of india( among upper castes) before 90s despite law allowing that

 

[Ajanbahu]

Even sangam age literature shows that widows did not remarry as a general rule,rather than Muslims impacting Hindus, they themselves were impacted. British noted in 1920s that many Muslim women of Tamil Nadu did not contract a second marriage( when islam encourages widow remarriage) due to Hindu influence. R.C. Majumdar has commented that out of many reasons for Hindu dislike for Muslims was their practise of widow remarriages and easy divorce.

Infact this whole logic that Indians banned remarriage due to Muslims is like saying that aztecs stopped using wheels and steel once Spanish came. I do not understand how contact with stone age tribals can lead to great scientific works similarly I have never understood this argument, how widow marrying Muslims led Indians to banning widow remarriage.

 

[Ajanbahu]

I have read almost all primary works, dramas and numerous books, I can tell with certainty that Indian society in pre Islamic times was only liberal to extent shown in most of movies of 60s that is parents allowed love marriages after they were convinced that the prospective spouse would be good one and youths did not rebel that much.

Ofcourse in general terms.

 

[Ajanbahu]

This portion from Mahabharata is very important

"Yudhishthira, however, O bull of the Bharata race, hearing of Duryodhana's intentions, sent a trusted messenger unto Draupadi, directing that although she was attired in one piece of cloth with her navel itself exposed, in consequence of her season having come, she should come before her father-in-law weeping bitterly.

Draupadi's reaction when she was being dragged to court

. And dragged by him, with body bent, she faintly cried--'Wretch! it ill behoveth thee to take me before the assembly. My season hath come, and I am now clad in one piece of attire

It is clear that she is protesting appearing before assembly of men when she is clad in one piece and her navel is exposed meaning that it was indecent to appear before elders and assembly of men with one piece attire and navel exposed.

 

[Ajanbahu]

These words of Draupadi are even more important

Draupadi, undeserving of such treatment, falling down upon the ground, thus wept in that assembly of the Kurus,--

"'Alas, only once before, on the occasion of the Swayamvara, I was beheld by the assembled kings in the amphitheatre, and never even once beheld afterwards. I am to-day brought before this assembly. She whom even the winds and the sun had seen never before in her palace is to-day before this assembly and exposed to the gaze of the crowd. Alas, she whom the sons of Pandu could not, while in her palace, suffer to be touched even by the wind, is to-day suffered by the Pandavas to be seized and dragged by this wretch. Alas, these Kauravas also suffer their daughter-in-law, so unworthy of such treatment, to be thus afflicted before them. It seemeth that the times are out of joint. What can be more distressing to me, than that though high-born and chaste, I should yet be compelled to enter this public court? Where is that virtue for which these kings were noted? It hath been heard that the kings of ancient days never brought their wedded wives into the public court. Alas, that eternal usage hath disappeared from among the Kauravas.

Now, I should say 'Parde me rahne do parda na uthao, parda utha jayega to bhed khul jayega, allah meri tauba, allah meri tauba.

It is a song of 60s.

 

[Ajanbahu]

Time to sleep now, will meet you 'bhadrapurushas' ( gentlemen) tomorrow.

 

[World Focker]

From Chinese references and accounts of literature, it was widespread among high varnas( brahmins, kshatriyas and vaishyas) in North India. There is a very good article of Patrick Olivelle on dietary rules of ancient India, you would find real stuff there.

Foods like meat, fish, Garlic, Onion etc are categorized into Tamasic category of food which is supposed to have negative effect on mind and body and hence to be avoided.

Thanks guys, will check out those articles too (quickly found one on taboo and two reviews of books on food generally).

 

[Vajra]

@Ajanbahu


About Sati and widow remarriage during Vedic times,see this verse from RV:

8 Rise, come unto the world of life, O woman: come, he is lifeless by whose side thou liest.
Wifehood with this thy husband was thy portion, who took thy hand and wooed thee as a lover.

Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN XVIII. Various Deities.



About outcastes and untouchables:

12 Thou for Turvīti heldest still the flowing floods, the river-stream for Vayya easily to pass
Didst raise the outcast from the depths, and gavest fame unto the halt and blind. Worthy of lauds art thou.

The RV just mentions the term Shudra only once,that too in the late Purusha Sukta.So leave alone untouchability.

Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 2: HYMN XIII. Indra.

As for Vedic 'dress',it was primitive.Many of the upper castes had animal skin and other primitive cloths as their dress even during the post-Vedic Sutra period:

https://books.google.co.in/books?id...A#v=onepage&q=kshatriya antelope skin&f=false

Forget about saree and blouse

 

[Ajanbahu]

@Ajanbahu


About Sati and widow remarriage during Vedic times,see this verse from RV:



Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN XVIII. Various Deities.



About outcastes and untouchables:



The RV just mentions the term Shudra only once,that too in the late Purusha Sukta.So leave alone untouchability.

Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 2: HYMN XIII. Indra.

As for Vedic 'dress',it was primitive.Many of the upper castes had animal skin and other primitive cloths as their dress even during the post-Vedic Sutra period:

https://books.google.co.in/books?id...A#v=onepage&q=kshatriya antelope skin&f=false

Forget about saree and blouse

I do not know what is your disagreement here, I never talked about widow remarriage being taboo in Vedic age India or anything like that. My point is simple- general and heavy dislike of upper caste woman marrying more than once, praising of sati and untouchability were practised in india at a time when Muhammad was not even born so calling islam as responsible for any of these is utter balderdash.

As for saree and blouse, I again have given enough references from classical literature written much before islam from Mahabharata to Gaha Sattasai and Kalidas.

 

[tornada]

I always thought Sati began with the Rajputs. You guys have any dated sources for it in the Ancient period?

 

[Vinnie]

Northwest India, Kashmir etc. can get snowy weather in colder seasons, do you think they would walk around naked? LOL, is this thread even serious? Even before Islam, the Kashmir shawls were popular. Cotton was probably first used during Indus Valley Civilisation. Also silk has an ancient history in the area. Does this guy seem naked to you guys?

 

[Vinnie]

As for silk in India.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_in_the_Indian_subcontinent]Silk in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Recent archaeological discoveries in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappa"]Harappa[/ame] and Chanhu-daro suggest that [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sericulture"]sericulture[/ame], employing [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_silk"]wild silk[/ame] threads from native [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silkworm"]silkworm[/ame] species, existed in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia"]South Asia[/ame] during the time of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization"]Indus Valley Civilization[/ame] dating between 2450 BC and 2000 BC

 

[Vinnie]

Cotton was used in the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_World"]Old World[/ame] at least 7,000 years ago (5th millennium BC). Evidence of cotton use has been found at the site of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh"]Mehrgarh[/ame], where early cotton threads have been preserved in copper beads.[5] Cotton cultivation became more widespread during the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization"]Indus Valley Civilization[/ame], which covered parts of modern eastern Pakistan and northwestern India.[6] The Indus cotton industry was well developed and some methods used in cotton spinning and fabrication continued to be used until the industrialization of India.[7] Between 2000 and 1000 BC cotton became widespread across much of India.[8] For example, it has been found at the site of Hallus in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnataka"]Karnataka[/ame] dating from around 1000 BC.[9]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton]Cotton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Vinnie]

Gandhara:

Hellenistic:

 

[Vinnie]

Tamil:

The type of long, dhoti style trousers have been very popular from a very early age all over South Asia.

 

[tornada]

Gandhara:

Hellenistic:

Cotton was used in the Old World at least 7,000 years ago (5th millennium BC). Evidence of cotton use has been found at the site of Mehrgarh, where early cotton threads have been preserved in copper beads.[5] Cotton cultivation became more widespread during the Indus Valley Civilization, which covered parts of modern eastern Pakistan and northwestern India.[6] The Indus cotton industry was well developed and some methods used in cotton spinning and fabrication continued to be used until the industrialization of India.[7] Between 2000 and 1000 BC cotton became widespread across much of India.[8] For example, it has been found at the site of Hallus in Karnataka dating from around 1000 BC.[9]

Cotton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for silk in India.

Silk in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Recent archaeological discoveries in Harappa and Chanhu-daro suggest that sericulture, employing wild silk threads from native silkworm species, existed in South Asia during the time of the Indus Valley Civilization dating between 2450 BC and 2000 BC

Northwest India, Kashmir etc. can get snowy weather in colder seasons, do you think they would walk around naked? LOL, is this thread even serious? Even before Islam, the Kashmir shawls were popular. Cotton was probably first used during Indus Valley Civilisation. Also silk has an ancient history in the area. Does this guy seem naked to you guys?

Several points.

One - India does tend to be larger than the Northern parts like Kashmir

Two - Greece gets damn cold in the winters too, parts even get snow. Not as heavy as Kashmir, but still not conducive to nudity either

Three - We do know that nudity was practiced by some sections of society, so its not like its absent

Four - Regardless of the accuracy of Vajra's case (I'm not commenting on it, I've given my opinion on the debate) he's certainly demonstrated that there are plenty of sculptures from other parts of India showing nudity, so calling the thread a "joke" is slightly irrelevant.

Five - what does the history of cotton and silk have to do with anything? Nobody said that the Indians never wore clothes. The Greeks had wool and hence clothes too! And Linen (from Egypt and other regions).

Six - if we do establish that there was some sort of norm (again, I'm not saying there was) it doesn't mean it was geographically universal, nor does it imply season universality. Nudity was known in cultures going as far north as France and Germany! I'm pretty sure regardless of the norm, they all wore clothes. And as you get to hotter climes - like Egypt, you'd infact find MORE coverings, not less. If there's any norm for nudity, it would only be in areas which are conducive to it, and even then season variations would apply. Whether or not such a norm existed in India, the climate certainly does, atleast in many parts of the country, though yes, not all. People aren't usually suicidal, and extreme winter and summer, even with a norm, they would have definitely had clothes. Humans, as a species, aren't usually suicidal or stupid to such a degree.

Basically - when we discuss a "norm" here, it means referring to acceptability - ie, was nudity "accepted" by society. I don't think it means that society disdained clothes or rejected them. Pretty sure no one here has argued that Indians wandered around stark naked regardless of climate or condition, even those arguing for a norm accepting nudity.

 

[Ajanbahu]

I always thought Sati began with the Rajputs. You guys have any dated sources for it in the Ancient period?

What we call Sati is basically a pan Indo European custom, Celts practised it and Greeks had an epic memory of same. Like other aspects, India here too retained yet another IE custom for much longer period of time.
Sati was certainly there in IA society in pre Christian times, Mbh mentions Madri burning with Pandu and Kunti not doing same due to her obligation of bringing up children. Then you have Didorus the Greek giving a poignant account of this for India of around 300 BCs.
The first inscription to mention this is one of Mandsor dated around 510 AD when wife of a certain Goparaja who fell in battle with Hunas is said to have ended her life.

The most memorable is case of mother of Harshavardhana, Yasomati who burnt herself just slightly before death of her husband in 605-06 AD.

All this before Rajputs, infact Tamils also had sort of same except that manner of death was burial in urns, this is mentioned in Sangam age literature.

 

[tornada]

What we call Sati is basically a pan Indo European custom, Celts practised it and Greeks had an epic memory of same. Like other aspects, India here too retained yet another IE custom for much longer period of time.
Sati was certainly there in IA society in pre Christian times, Mbh mentions Madri burning with Pandu and Kunti not doing same due to her obligation of bringing up children. Then you have Didorus the Greek giving a poignant account of this for India of around 300 BCs.
The first inscription to mention this is one of Mandsor dated around 510 AD when wife of a certain Goparaja who fell in battle with Hunas is said to have ended her life.

The most memorable is case of mother of Harshavardhana, Yasomati who burnt herself just slightly before death of her husband in 605-06 AD.

All this before Rajputs, infact Tamils also had sort of same except that manner of death was burial in urns, this is mentioned in Sangam age literature.

Ok thanks

 

[Vinnie]

Two - Greece gets damn cold in the winters too, parts even get snow. Not as heavy as Kashmir, but still not conducive to nudity either

Erm.
The Hellenistic statue is obviously Indo-Greek (Taxila)

Meaning the Northwestern Indians already covered their full bodies as seen in older art. This statue also proves that the nude statues were often used in a symbolic sense rather then actual the way they dressed. I mean do you think the Greeks started to walk around naked when becoming Indianized? What a nonsense here.

 

[tornada]

Meaning the Northwestern Indians already covered their full bodies as seen in older art. This statue also proves that the nude statues were often used in a symbolic sense rather then actual the way they dressed. I mean do you think the Greeks started to walk around naked when becoming Indianized? What a nonsense here.

I'm not sure how you can make that assertion. Nudity can be cultural, and in the summer atleast the region can be quite pleasant. If parts of the population had adopted Greek culture, they might have adopted certain greek mores. The "gymnosophists" used to be naked remember?