What if Hitler didn't make the decision to invade Russia

[rob_hawke]

how does everyone think world war 2 would have ended if hitler hadnt made the decision to invade russia?

would russia have declared war on germany later on anyway, would germany have instead consolodated their power over central europe instead?

what does everyone think?

 

[Auzolan]

A very interesting question, because they lost the war in Russia.
But they hated comunism, they wanted to control these lands, and they were supported by Catholic church, that wanted to control Russia and principally Orthodox church too.

 

[Fire_Raven]

I think a confrontation between the Nazis and Soviets was inevitable. The Nazis were ardent anti-communists and they considered Slavs as inferior. The Soviets considered all of the Western nations a threat (with good reason)

The Germans tried several times, prior to and during the war, to unite other factions in a fight against Communism. Even if they hadn't invaded in '41 but waited until some kind of peace with the UK was realized, would of eventually turned to deal with the Soviets.

The Soviets might not of waited to much longer before they attacked Germany to prevent an anti-Communist coalition from forming in the West. Part of the reasoning behind the massive effort at rapid industrialization was to be prepared for upcoming wars against the enemies of the State.

 

[gaius valerius]

Soviets would invade Germany. The pact they'd made after 1938 was only because Stalin realised that as of yet he could not face the Nazi's and iirc I remember reading that the Soviets were planning to have their army back on track by 1942?

 

[irishcrusader95]

I remember reading that the Soviets were planning to have their army back on track by 1942?

yes that was when the last 5 year plan would be completed which concentrated on the military. hitler was obsessed with russia there was no way he was going to not invade. as he saw it and he was right as well is that the longer he delayed the invasion the more time he was giving the soviets to beef up there army. its interesting to think what may have happened if hitler had held off the attack until they were ready but before they attacked the russians launched a preemptive attack, wonder which side history would paint as the bad guys

 

[jungleplanewreck]

Russia would have invaded Germany.

 

[Fire_Raven]

yes that was when the last 5 year plan would be completed which concentrated on the military. hitler was obsessed with russia there was no way he was going to not invade. as he saw it and he was right as well is that the longer he delayed the invasion the more time he was giving the soviets to beef up there army. its interesting to think what may have happened if hitler had held off the attack until they were ready but before they attacked the russians launched a preemptive attack, wonder which side history would paint as the bad guys

Forget where I saw it but heard 1943 mentioned as a likely year which would make sense if they planned for some time to organize the actual attack after the 5 yr plans finished

 

[avon]

Moved to Speculative History.

 

[rob_hawke]

sorry for posting in the wrong section.

i agree that conflict between the two was inevitable at some point and it suited the russians to let germany act as the aggressor so that other countries would unite against germany.
i hadnt heard of the 5 year plan before but it makes sense considering the amount of arms and quality of these by the end of the war, especially the tanks.

i think its very interesting too in the point about what would have happened had russia declared war on germany instead and how the world would have taken this.

how do we all think the war in russia would have gone without hitlers constant meddling in the tactics etc of the werhmacht, or was the result just inevitable?

 

[Mohammed the Persian]

what would have happened had russia declared war on germany instead and how the world would have taken this.

Well, the world wouldn't have minded the Soviets declaring war (since it would've actually helped the Allies). Then again, Historians would view that the Soviets would've been 'the dishonest partner' in their little deal.

how do we all think the war in russia would have gone without hitlers constant meddling in the tactics etc of the werhmacht, or was the result just inevitable?

Ah... a tricky question. By you stating that Hitler weren't to be involved, then Operation Barbarossa wouldn't have occurred (Hitler's Generals advised against the invasion , citing a Napoleon-type failure).
If Hitler did follow his Generals views; the Germans would've had better equipment ( to give them proper winter clothing), the German offensive would've been much more successful (Hitler wouldn't have 'misplaced' all his tanks and brigade..).

Basically speaking, Hitler would've had a higher probability of winning if he had in fact listened to his Generals. Keep in mind that the Soviets are yet to be mobilised and once they do, it would appear to be a slow stalemate (although it would occur at a later period).

I apologise if I didn't specify much, I'm very tired right now

 

[rob_hawke]

Ah... a tricky question. By you stating that Hitler weren't to be involved, then Operation Barbarossa wouldn't have occurred (Hitler's Generals advised against the invasion , citing a Napoleon-type failure).
If Hitler did follow his Generals views; the Germans would've had better equipment ( to give them proper winter clothing), the German offensive would've been much more successful (Hitler wouldn't have 'misplaced' all his tanks and brigade..).

Basically speaking, Hitler would've had a higher probability of winning if he had in fact listened to his Generals. Keep in mind that the Soviets are yet to be mobilised and once they do, it would appear to be a slow stalemate (although it would occur at a later period).

I apologise if I didn't specify much, I'm very tired right now [/COLOR]

yeah i was thinking if hitler would have just specified where to invade and his objectives and just let the army get on it rather than him directing the armies from 3000 miles away and not having a clue what was going on at the front.

one of the most important factors would be the winter clothing though, this drastically reduced the effectiveness of the german armies ability to fight well.

think a good point to be made too would be his decision to kill off hundreds of thousands of people in the advance into russia, ukraine etc rather than galvanizing their anti communist feelings and recruiting them into the armies to fight too.

 

[pajfarmor]

Already in 1938-39, German economy was in a critical state which "demanded" the injection of further goods for consumtion (presumably from neighbouring Poland) and the forced devaluation of currencies of occupied countries (resulting in a raise in import of goods from these countries).
However, in 1941 the "beast" emerged from the miracle of the 1930s was not satisfied and it is unlikely even that a successful subduing of European Russia would have provided enough resources to feed a Greater Germany. Even presuming Stalin wouldn't have striken first (which he would have) the German economy would have been on its knees within a year or a few, followed by a renewed wave of mass unemployment, the needs for cutbacks on either army, security apparatus and social services budgets (either one resulting in a much weaker and unstable Third Reich) or the complete collapse of the German Reichsmark (think like, Zimbabwe) and in the end probably much a more critical situation. I doubt it surely would have led to the end of the Nazi tyranny, but it would neither have been the first - or last - time.

Hitler simply had the choice to invade the Soviet Union with its natural resources, human capital (fit for slave labor in German factories), industry (too bad it was moved swiftly away) and not least its oil supplies (abstaining from Barbarossa and nort fulfilling payments for Soviet oil already shipped westwards would have caused an immediate cut on further deliveries and instead brought the Wehrmacht to its knees), or to inevietably crumble sooner or later from inside. The only possible option would have been preparing a stronger Afrikakorps for an invasion of the Levant and Middle East through Egypt, coercing elements within Iraq, Iran and Turkey into joining the ranks of the Axis and securing a stable oil flow through a pipeline etc. Still, it would not provide enough loot for the German market, and even a successful invasion of the British isles would most certainly not safely have brought all the empire (including the costs of maintaining the same empire) with infrastructure, fleet etc into German hands.
To put it briefly; go for Russia.

The same arguments can to some extent apply for why the Reich was keen coercing Jews and others away from their property and consequently confiscating it, I guess.

 

[serhi]

The Soviet Union has gone to war with Germany is unique. This is evidenced by the general mobilization before the war, offensive military equipment samples taken on board. The war was not inevitably. The only question that Stalin was waiting for that Hitler bogged down on the western front, but the Entente ignominiously defeated then the war. And it was for him a big disappointment.

 

[RoyalGovnaWatts]

A war between Russia and Germany was inevitable. Russia was like gasoline and Germany was the match. Fascism and communism cannot work together, therefore if Germany hadn't invaded, Russia surely would have later on.

 

[sylla1]

Please remember that Herr Hitler's decision on Barbarossa 1941 has been already extensively debated in several previous threads.

Essentially, the moment for the invasion was an extremely poor choice, even if the Führer may have really considered it as a preemptive strike (of course, virtually any invasion might be justified as a "preemptive strike"); Uncle Joe would have been in all likelihood unable to attack the III Reich that year.

On the OP, and aside from my previous sentence, it seems unlikely that Uncle Joe would have ever fully joined the Axis (not to talk about what Japan may have thought about such eventuality), unless the Allies may have directly provoked him (exactly what WSC & FDR wisely avoided).

An eventual German invasion of the Soviet Union would have still been IMHO the most likely ultimate outcome, quite possibly by the next Spring (1942).

 

[Sir Thomas of Buckingham]

imho nobody cares sylla nobody cares

 

[sylla1]

imho nobody cares sylla nobody cares

In my superb opinion, I may have missed your question on the OP.

 

[Sir Thomas of Buckingham]

i said that cause u said imho to piss off the gov lol

 

[Sir Thomas of Buckingham]

is member of the year handed out like free cake at a fat guy convention?

 

[sylla1]

is member of the year handed out like free cake at a fat guy convention?

Are you familiar with the concepts of "ad hominem", "spamming" and "trolling" ?