"America is young; If you go to Greece or Italy, you see amazing ancient ruins." Comments?

Oldandeasilycofused · Sep 5, 2023

specul8 said:
calls us criminals and convicts I lament how we have been 'imprisoned' on this God forsaken land ;

Not in South Australia. WE are the only state founded as a free colony (1836) MY ancestors arrived from County Clare in 1870 . The last convict ship was in 1868.
I have no idea how they raised the fare.

Have only considered Australia a god forsaken land once. From the age of 8 to 10. My family lived in the small town of Kapunda, 77km north of Adelaide. I thought it was the dark side of the moon. Almost died there when I fell down a quarry (age 8) and smashed myself up.

Coincidentally, those ancestors (the blokes) I mentioned worked in the short-lived Kapunda copper mines. One died in Kapunda. I've seem his grave and headstone there. Only found out about 30 years ago.

rakovsky · Sep 6, 2023

Oldandeasilycofused said:
The average kangaroo makes the average sheep seem intellectually gifted.

You must have heard of Skippy by now.

specul8 · Sep 6, 2023

Oldandeasilycofused said:
The average kangaroo makes the average sheep seem intellectually gifted. Kangaroos are considered vermin in much of Australia.

'Vermin' are much smaller .

Oldandeasilycofused said:
Platypuses have venomous spurs.

Yes .... many people each year get spurred when picking them to play with them .

( for our OS readers ... this is BS . I'd like to hear of one person .... one .... that ever got 'spurred' by a platty . Although we like to cite that they got venomous spurs )

Oldandeasilycofused said:
Koalas often have chlamydia***. If you pick one up, it will probably wee on you and give you fleas

Unless you are a visiting dignitary ; those special 'cuddle koalas ' have been previously 'drained' and sedated .

Unless you meant a wild koala .... have you been going around cuddling wild koalas and catching platypus ?

Oldandeasilycofused said:
Oh, none of those animals like being touched by humans.

Possums do ... well my possums do .... it means a banana is soon to appear.

Oldandeasilycofused said:
*** A serious problem which has killed so many koalas that there are concerns for the species.

Oh no ! Not the cute koala !

yet little concern exists for ;

" 100 Australian endemic species are listed as extinct (or extinct in the wild) since the nation's colonisation by Europeans in 1788. The list includes 38 plants, 34 mammals, ten invertebrates, nine birds, four frogs, three reptiles, one fish, and a protist. This tally represents about 6-10% of the world's post-1500 recognised extinctions "

A review of listed extinctions in Australia | TSR Hub

100 Australian endemic species are listed as extinct (or extinct in the wild) since the nation’s colonisation by Europeans in 1788. The list includes 38 plants, 34 mammals, ten invertebrates, nine birds, four frogs, three reptiles, one fish, and a protist.

www.nespthreatenedspecies.edu.au

specul8 · Sep 6, 2023

Oldandeasilycofused said:
Not in South Australia. WE are the only state founded as a free colony (1836) MY ancestors arrived from County Clare in 1870 . The last convict ship was in 1868.
I have no idea how they raised the fare.

Have only considered Australia a god forsaken land once. From the age of 8 to 10. My family lived in the small town of Kapunda, 77km north of Adelaide. I thought it was the dark side of the moon. Almost died there when I fell down a quarry (age 8) and smashed myself up.

Well, you should travel your state more .... to see more of that god forsaken land ( I used to live there too, ya know )

Oldandeasilycofused said:
Coincidentally, those ancestors (the blokes) I mentioned worked in the short-lived Kapunda copper mines. One died in Kapunda. I've seem his grave and headstone there. Only found out about 30 years ago.

specul8 · Sep 6, 2023

rakovsky said:
You must have heard of Skippy by now.

Which one ?

There where at least 9 in the tv series .... not counting the shots of just kanga arms ( ie severed kangaroo arms being manipulated by out of frame human hands . Sometimes it was a whole dead and stuffed kangaroo .

And no such noise as Skippy made either - they used to stuff its mouth with chewing gum while a rubber band was put around the lower jaw .

Oooooo .... I so want to see this ! ;

" The original series was parodied in a recurring sketch as part of the British comedy series Goodness Gracious Me under the title "Skipinder, the Punjabi Kangaroo"

Oldandeasilycofused · Sep 6, 2023

specul8 said:
Well, you should travel your state more .... to see more of that god forsaken land ( I used to live there too, ya know )

Haven't been to the far north. Have never understood why any sane person would go there except for a lot of money.. One of my ancestors settled in Jamestown. In the nineteenth century, that was pretty remote.

I once met Tom Kruse who was the postman along the Birdsville Track.

My youngest sister actually met the dropkick she eventually married at the Birdsville Races.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The most desolate places I've been are the Hay Plains and parts of the Nullabor (although there are some beautiful things if you're paying attention)

"Jamestown is a town in the Mid North region of South Australia 207 kilometres (129 mi) north of Adelaide. It lies on the banks of the Belalie Creek and on the Crystal Brook-Broken Hill railway line between Gladstone and Peterborough, and ultimately on the main line linking Adelaide and Perth to Sydney. At the 2016 census, Jamestown had a population of 1,561,[1] and is the thriving centre of a prosperous area. Jamestown is the council seat of its local municipality, Northern Areas Council. Jamestown is in the South Australian Legislative Assembly electoral district of Stuart and the federal Division of Grey."

Jamestown, South Australia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jamestown currently has a population of around 1500-----and more than ten hotels!

The 5 Best Jamestown Accommodation Deals (Sept 2023) - Tripadvisor

Jamestown Hotel Deals: Find great deals from hundreds of websites, and book the right hotel using Tripadvisor's 99 reviews of Jamestown hotels.

www.tripadvisor.com.au

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Tom Kruse was the best bush liar I've ever met. Tom died at age 96.

Below a tribute:

rakovsky · Sep 6, 2023

specul8 said:
" 100 Australian endemic species are listed as extinct (or extinct in the wild) since the nation's colonisation by Europeans in 1788. The list includes 38 plants, 34 mammals, ten invertebrates, nine birds, four frogs, three reptiles, one fish, and a protist. This tally represents about 6-10% of the world's post-1500 recognised extinctions "

Yes, there are a bunch of cool curious animals associated with Australia, like the marsupials. I've seen opossums in nature in the US, and they are cool.

The Bettong looks cool:

Sometimes Australia comes up in biology as preserving "missing links" types of animals that aren't in the rest of the world, like with marsupials and echidnas.

Then there is a animal called a bandicoot that a game is named after (Crash Bandicoot).

Then there is the rabbit-rat:

brush-tailed-rabbit-rat_hi_photo-by-hugh-davies_web.jpg

Cute, cool, crazy at same time: Wallaby with Mom

It's too bad if the Thylacine (Tasmanian wolf) died. It looks cool too:

It was actually a marsupial that looked like a dog, so it is also in the cool, weird category.

The Tasmanian coat of arms features thylacines.

This is kind of sad if the species is extinct from hunting and yet on the coat of arms.

Prior to European settlement around 5,000 remained in the wild on Tasmania. Beginning in the nineteenth century they were perceived as a threat to the livestock of farmers and bounty hunting was introduced. The last known of its species died in 1936 at Hobart Zoo in Tasmania.
...
Between 1967 and 1973, zoologist Jeremy Griffith and dairy farmer James Malley conducted what is regarded as the most intensive search for thylacines ever carried out, .... which concluded without finding any evidence of the thylacine's existence. ... The Department of Conservation and Land Management recorded 203 reports of sightings of the thylacine in Western Australia from 1936 to 1998.[66] On the mainland, sightings are most frequently reported in Southern Victoria.[119]

Oldandeasilycofused · Sep 8, 2023

We also have the tiny Bilby. It has come close to extinction due to the predation of introduced species , such as the feral house cat and foxes. Also for unknown reasons. The species continues to decline

"One of Australia's best-known marsupials, the greater bilby, has been immortalised as our very own bearer of Easter goodies. But bilbies are revered for a variety of other ecological and cultural reasons, too.

The bilby is an important ecosystem engineer. It’s an excellent digger and so many other species reap the rewards of its hard work. When bilbies aren't living in their complex burrows, which can be up to three metres long and two metres deep, other animals like insects, reptiles, birds and small mammals take up residence. The burrows provide vital shelter from predators and high summer temperatures." -------------------

Bilby | WWF Australia

wwf.org.au

specul8 · Sep 9, 2023

But ... no 'ancient ruins ' .

This is the closest to 'ancient ruins' around here :

A jail, of course .

Trial Bay Gaol - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oldandeasilycofused · Sep 9, 2023

specul8 said:
But ... no 'ancient ruins ' .

This is the closest to 'ancient ruins' around here :

A jail, of course .

Trial Bay Gaol - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Victorian pile which is Yatala labour prison is still used here in Adelaide. Of course there are some modern buildings. I understand
Yatala is still over crowded.

rakovsky · Sep 9, 2023

specul8 said:
But ... no 'ancient ruins ' .

I recall Australia's ancient petroglyphs being one of the places in the Ancient Astronauts/Aliens legends/theories/tales. One Egyptologist said that these theories/tales are a major way that that people initially get into ancient archaeology in general.

"The Wisdom Keepers," Episode 7 of Season 11 runs an hour and focuses on Australia. You can find free Previews for a bunch of sections from the episode online. The series works better if you take it in a spirit of fun, adventure, and exploration instead of taking it all at face value as proven scholarship.

Another Ancient Astronauts/Aliens story is about the "The Gosford Glyphs", about 300 Egyptian-style hieroglyphs in Kariong, Australia. But the Wikipedia page for those glyphs gives a lot of reasons to think that they are a 20th century hoax. But it's at least plausible that the Egyptians or another civilization like the Indus Valley Civilization, could have sailed to Australia while trying to explore the world. According to the Greek writer Herodotus, the 7th-6th century BC Pharaoh Necho II had the ancient Egyptians circumnavigate Africa. Plus, Indonesians colonized Madagascar in 830 AD. Wikipedia's article on the spice trade in ancient times says:

The spice trade was associated with overland routes early on, but maritime routes proved to be the factor which helped the trade grow.[1] The first true maritime trade network in the Indian Ocean was by the Austronesian peoples of Island Southeast Asia.[10] They established trade routes with Southern India and Sri Lanka as early as 1500 BC, ushering an exchange of material culture (like catamarans, outrigger boats, lashed-lug and sewn-plank boats, and paan) and cultigens (like coconuts, sandalwood, bananas, and sugarcane), as well as connecting the material cultures of India and China. Indonesians in particular were trading in spices (mainly cinnamon and cassia) with East Africa using catamaran and outrigger boats and sailing with the help of the westerlies in the Indian Ocean. This trade network expanded to reach as far as Africa and the Arabian Peninsula, resulting in the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar by the first half of the first millennium AD.

specul8 · Sep 10, 2023

rakovsky said:
I recall Australia's ancient petroglyphs being one of the places in the Ancient Astronauts/Aliens legends/theories/tales. One Egyptologist said that these theories/tales are a major way that that people initially get into ancient archaeology in general.

Ask our moderator 'AlpinLuke' about that one . and errrmmm ..... < slowly raises own hand > .....

rakovsky said:
"The Wisdom Keepers," Episode 7 of Season 11 runs an hour and focuses on Australia. You can find free Previews for a bunch of sections from the episode online. The series works better if you take it in a spirit of fun, adventure, and exploration instead of taking it all at face value as proven scholarship.

No thanks .

rakovsky said:
Another Ancient Astronauts/Aliens story is about the "The Gosford Glyphs", about 300 Egyptian-style hieroglyphs in Kariong, Australia. But the Wikipedia page for those glyphs gives a lot of reasons to think that they are a 20th century hoax. But it's at least plausible that the Egyptians or another civilization like the Indus Valley Civilization, could have sailed to Australia while trying to explore the world.

Plausible ?

Seemingly or apparently valid, likely, or acceptable; credible.
Persuasive or ingratiating, especially in an effort to deceive.
Worthy of being applauded; praiseworthy; commendable; ready.

maybe the 2nd one .

I have some personal knowledge about this fiasco

I first encountered it many years ago in an Australian archaeology magazine . Way back then it was a few pathetic scratches and a nearby cave some homeless person was camped in. Later , National Park officers noticed it had been added to , in a semblance of hieroglyphs . There is documented evidence in photographs to show how they have been added to over recent years . They caught one guy doing it and he was supposedly a person that had absconded from a psychiatric facility . Then enter one of those wack a doodle magazine that featured the story and tried to make it make it real .

Next enter Ray Merton ( now deceased ) ... a self taught ancient Egyptian language 'expert ' - not just your everyday obscure and difficult to translate hieroglyphics ... but the ancient variety , actually, so ancient that no one but Ray seems to be able to get the meanings he does !

he 'translated' the Gosford Glyphs into some fantastic story and silly mags like 'Nexus' and 'New Dawn' started printing it .

No Expert or any one competent in hieroglyphs agrees with Merton's interpretation . But wait .... it gets better . Ray was not just Ray .... I know, I went to visit him in Queensland ...... just wow !

Ray started , somehow, a 'Ra-Harakty' cult with a group of local Brisbane aboriginals ! His house has psuedo Egyptian stuff all over it , including some 1960's style glass fronted sideboards / cupboard things . In these he has constructed mock up Egyptian temples and has got 'dollies' ( some look dressed up Ken and Barbie dolls ) in little costumes . One Aboriginal woman told me , in great awe and secrecy how 'powerful ' Ray was ; " Those dolls come alive and perform rituals in there ! "

He introduced me to a senior Aboriginal woman and I went to her place for a further talk , she invited me to meet some others and come to a wedding reception with her the next day ... a small affair , in someone's back yard . Well, it was a bigger affair than imagined ; one side of the yard abutted a street and had a high wooden fence with a gate in it , people where lined up to get in and two byurly looking Aboriginal guys where checking people at the gate to make sure no one was trying to crash it . Somehow I got separated from the woman and realized she was ahead of me . The bouncers stepped back in respect , nodded and acknowledged her with ' Auntie. ' Then I went to pass them ... nope . "Who are you ?" I tried to explain but they where not having it , never seen me before , no way, not getting in .

But then one of them noticed I had a small silver Egyptian ' Ra' God pendant around my neck, one pointed and in a near gasp ; " Ra - Harakte ! " the other looked , they both lowered their eyes and stepped aside to let me in .

That would have to have been one of my most bizarre experiences ! A psuedo ancient Egyptian Australian Aboriginal cult ! WTF !

Ray's 'translation ' was a bout three brothers that came here in a boat , one died and was buried next to or near the 'glyphs' , the others wandered about and then something something .... it doesnt matter , its all BS .

I took Ray a copy of the 'Famine Stella ' - didnt tell him what it was and claimed I thought it was an an ancient alchemical formulae for liquefied stone and asked him to translate it .

The results where rather hilarious ... until after about a week and 1/3 of the way through it he was ....

"HEY ! This is the famine stella ! "

He wernt to happy about that .

But you see Ray was not just Ray . In one of his books ( photocopies of some old typed manuscript ) he pointed out to me a series of listed incarnations that went something like ;

1. 12,000 BC The God Ra
2. some other date and 'Ra - Harakte '
3 " " and a Pharaoh's name and ( incarnation of Ra-Harakte ) .
4. "
5 "

Until eventually ... 12 or something

12 . Ray Merton . 157 **** St ( some suburb ) Brisbane QLD . Australia,

- he also warned me not to try and trick the Aboriginals with magic ...... EHHH ? !

rakovsky said:
According to the Greek writer Herodotus, the 7th-6th century BC Pharaoh Necho II had the ancient Egyptians circumnavigate Africa. Plus, Indonesians colonized Madagascar in 830 AD. Wikipedia's article on the spice trade in ancient times says:

The spice trade was associated with overland routes early on, but maritime routes proved to be the factor which helped the trade grow.[1] The first true maritime trade network in the Indian Ocean was by the Austronesian peoples of Island Southeast Asia.[10] They established trade routes with Southern India and Sri Lanka as early as 1500 BC, ushering an exchange of material culture (like catamarans, outrigger boats, lashed-lug and sewn-plank boats, and paan) and cultigens (like coconuts, sandalwood, bananas, and sugarcane), as well as connecting the material cultures of India and China. Indonesians in particular were trading in spices (mainly cinnamon and cassia) with East Africa using catamaran and outrigger boats and sailing with the help of the westerlies in the Indian Ocean. This trade network expanded to reach as far as Africa and the Arabian Peninsula, resulting in the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar by the first half of the first millennium AD.

ya never know what lurks in the undergrowth !

rakovsky · Sep 10, 2023

specul8 said:
I have some personal knowledge about this fiasco

I first encountered it many years ago in an Australian archaeology magazine . Way back then it was a few pathetic scratches and a nearby cave some homeless person was camped in. Later , National Park officers noticed it had been added to , in a semblance of hieroglyphs . There is documented evidence in photographs to show how they have been added to over recent years . They caught one guy doing it and he was supposedly a person that had absconded from a psychiatric facility . Then enter one of those wack a doodle magazine that featured the story and tried to make it make it real .

Next enter Ray Merton ( now deceased ) ... a self taught ancient Egyptian language 'expert ' - not just your everyday obscure and difficult to translate hieroglyphics ... but the ancient variety , actually, so ancient that no one but Ray seems to be able to get the meanings he does ! he 'translated' the Gosford Glyphs into some fantastic story and silly mags like 'Nexus' and 'New Dawn' started printing it .

No Expert or any one competent in hieroglyphs agrees with Merton's interpretation . But wait .... it gets better . Ray was not just Ray .... I know, I went to visit him in Queensland ...... just wow !

Ray started , somehow, a 'Ra-Harakty' cult with a group of local Brisbane aboriginals ! His house has psuedo Egyptian stuff all over it , including some 1960's style glass fronted sideboards / cupboard things . In these he has constructed mock up Egyptian temples and has got 'dollies' ( some look dressed up Ken and Barbie dolls ) in little costumes . One Aboriginal woman told me , in great awe and secrecy how 'powerful ' Ray was ; " Those dolls come alive and perform rituals in there ! "

He introduced me to a senior Aboriginal woman and I went to her place for a further talk , she invited me to meet some others and come to a wedding reception with her the next day ... a small affair , in someone's back yard . Well, it was a bigger affair than imagined ; one side of the yard abutted a street and had a high wooden fence with a gate in it , people where lined up to get in and two byurly looking Aboriginal guys where checking people at the gate to make sure no one was trying to crash it . Somehow I got separated from the woman and realized she was ahead of me . The bouncers stepped back in respect , nodded and acknowledged her with ' Auntie. ' Then I went to pass them ... nope . "Who are you ?" I tried to explain but they where not having it , never seen me before , no way, not getting in .

But then one of them noticed I had a small silver Egyptian ' Ra' God pendant around my neck, one pointed and in a near gasp ; " Ra - Harakte ! " the other looked , they both lowered their eyes and stepped aside to let me in .

That would have to have been one of my most bizarre experiences ! A psuedo ancient Egyptian Australian Aboriginal cult ! WTF !

Ray's 'translation ' was a bout three brothers that came here in a boat , one died and was buried next to or near the 'glyphs' , the others wandered about and then something something .... it doesnt matter , its all BS .

I took Ray a copy of the 'Famine Stella ' - didnt tell him what it was and claimed I thought it was an an ancient alchemical formulae for liquefied stone and asked him to translate it .

The results where rather hilarious ... until after about a week and 1/3 of the way through it he was ....

"HEY ! This is the famine stella ! "

He wernt to happy about that .

But you see Ray was not just Ray . In one of his books ( photocopies of some old typed manuscript ) he pointed out to me a series of listed incarnations that went something like ;

1. 12,000 BC The God Ra
2. some other date and 'Ra - Harakte '
3 " " and a Pharaoh's name and ( incarnation of Ra-Harakte ) .
4. "
5 "

Until eventually ... 12 or something

12 . Ray Merton . 157 **** St ( some suburb ) Brisbane QLD . Australia,

- he also warned me not to try and trick the Aboriginals with magic ...... EHHH ? !

I thought that the Spoiler was something that I'd typed in. Then I pressed Reply, and it was like something popping out of the Oak Island Mystery story.

Personally I don't have much opinion about the Oak Island Mystery. I read the story as a kid. From what I recall, the basic idea was that some Anglo-Canadian kids in modern Nova Scotia told a story about finding pieces of buried treasure in a pit on the island on the Nova Scotia Atlantic coast. People made theories about Pirates burying treasure there. Then people spent tons of money on digging up the pit, and making claims of finding log floors and coconut palm fronds deep in the pit, as if there was buried treasure. After long enough digging, it became known as the Money Pit. Recently, a TV series was made about people nowadays digging at the island and showing the TV series different old European artifacts that they claimed to find during their excavation at the site.

It seems feasible that in medieval or modern times Europeans (Vikings, Templars, Pirates, explorers, Spaniards, etc.) got to this island and put stuff there or left it accidentally. Then there's also a bunch of well-known European exploration expeditions to that region that went missin, like the Cabot expedition of 1498 and the Cortes Real expeditions. One Cortes Real brother got lost who went there and another brother went there looking for him and got lost too. Then there was an attempted early 16th century Portuguese colony that practically vanished after a while, with just some traces found at different spots like Sable Island. So maybe some of the curious claims of discoveries like Oak Island and the missing Europeans are related. Who knows. In my thread below, I have a hard enough time figuring out where the Viking Sagas are pointing to as different locations south of Labrador, and those Sagas are describing the results and geographic knowledge of successful Viking exploratory expeditions:

Where do the Viking Sagas point to the Vikings visiting in the US or Southeast Canada?

Archaeologists found a Viking settlement's remains in L'Anse aux Meadows, at the northern end of Newfoundland's northernmost peninsula. The Viking site had butternuts, which only grow about as far north as New Brunswick, so it's likely that the Vikings journeyed farther south than L'Anse aux...

historum.com

rakovsky · Sep 10, 2023

specul8 said:
I had a small silver Egyptian ' Ra' God pendant around my neck,

Something like this?:

specul8 · Sep 11, 2023

Well, I never expected my answer about BS Aussie hieroglyphs to turn into a dissertation about Oak Island !

rakovsky said:
Something like this?:

No . Why , do you want to crash a backyard bbq party for the free beer ?

Like this , in silver

rakovsky · Sep 11, 2023

@specul8
Fun story.
For fans of ancient Egyptian religion and traces of it, we can see a couple trends and places to look. One is in archaeology and old texts. Another is in whatever secondary carryovers continued into the Coptic Church, like some melodies or music or art styles and language. Supposedly the Great Friday part of Holy Week has a service that carries on an aspect of the funerals for the pharaohs, because part of that Christian service involves making a symbolic funerary balm like we read about in the Gospels. It's not that Jesus was using a pharaonic style, but rather the converse - that the Christians of Egypt when commemorating the event carried over some style of their own national tradition. Thirdly, there is a modern Kemetic religion that is a kind of revitalization or attempted reconstruction of ancient Egyptian religion.

rakovsky · Oct 12, 2023

Some informative materials on the Inventio Fortunata, the story by an English Minorite monk who apparently traveled with an astrolabe to the area of Greenland or the Arctic in c. 1360 AD:

Benjamin Franklin DeCosta, "Inventio Fortunata: Arctic Exploration, with an Account of Nicholas of Lynn" (1880)

Inventio Fortunata

books.google.com

John Lenz, "Rare North Pole in 1613??", showing a video of a 17th century map showing the North Pole region. The map is apparently influenced by the description in the Inventio Fortunata of the region:

Dr. T.J. Oleson, "Myths and More Myths", a newspaper article with an academic review of the story:

Lögberg-Heimskringla - 36. tölublað (26.09.1963), Blaðsíða 2

Fréttablað í Winnipeg

timarit.is

E.G.R. Taylor, "A Letter Dated 1577 from Mercator to John Dee"

https://www.strangehistory.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Mercator.pdf

Based on a preliminary review of the information, the monk may have been the astronomer, monk, and astrolabe-maker Nicholas of Lynn in the Norfolk region of northeast England that had trade with Norway. It sounds as if he went on the Norwegian voyage of 1340-1364 from Norway to Greenland. In his description in the Inventio Fortunata, he describes a far north region with trees, and based on known geography, the place could have been northern Norway, Iceland, the south end of Greenland like the Qinnqua Valley, or else Labrador or even Newfoundland. He describes short people living in the far north, and he could be referring to Lapp people in northern Norway, or to Dorset People or Eskimos/Innuits/Thule People in northern Greenland, Baffin Island, or Labrador.

rakovsky · Oct 13, 2023

If you want to imagine an analogy, consider that a Chilean visits Europe and has the same conversation:
"Chile is a young country."
Well, that's arguable. It was a Spanish colony that got independence, and more people there report being of European background than Native and Mestizo (mixed) combined. (Chileans - Wikipedia)

"If you go to Italy or Greece, you see amazing ancient ruins. Chile doesn't have history."
The first statement is technically true, but Chile does have cool ruins too, like a giant geoglyph (the Giant of Atacama) comparable to the Nazca Lines, plus the Moai of Easter Island that belongs to Chile, and the Pukará de Quitor ruins.

Pukará de Quitor ruins.

Chile also has the ruins of Ahu Vinapu on Easter Island that resemble the impressive craftsmanship of Andean civilizations:

Then there is the 12th century fortress of Lasana Pukara:

So in this case, the problem with the person's statement is not that "Chile is young," but the problem is that the second statement about Greece and Italy implies that Chile doesn't have solid buildings that are not young, as the conclusion that follows is that "Chile doesn't have history."

rakovsky · Oct 19, 2023

One fun thing about traveling in Europe was the ease of using train service. In the US outside of the major city regions of the NE and California, train service is more limited. The US Southwest looks like the main region for impressive pre-columbian architecture, so I was curious to see what train routes there were.

In general, the pueblo region covers south Utah, south Colorado, AZ, and NM, although it touches a bit on west TX at El Paso, south NV, and SE California.

Here are each of Amtrak's stations in the area labeled in the style of a subway map.

https://i.redd.it/9y4wt5pgvac71.png

www.reddit.com

Amtrak stations.

In general, Amtrak runs two lines through the ancestral puebloan 4-states region. One runs west from La Junta in SE Colorado, down southwest to Albuquerque NM, west to Winslow AZ, then to Flagstaff, then to Williams, then to Kingsman AZ and then to Riverside, CA.
The other runs west from El Paso to Benzon AZ to Tucson AZ, then to Maricopa AZ and then to Yuma AZ and to Riverside CA, where they connect.

Other than the Amtrak line, the two passenger rails in Arizona are the Grand Canyon RR and the Verde Canyon RR.

The Grand Canyon RR is in Arizona and runs north from Williams AZ, where there is an Amtrak station, to the Grand Canyon:

The Verde Canyon Railroad, is another tourist train connecting Clarkdale and Perkinsville, AZ.

Clarkdale is about 67 miles south of Flagstaff, which has about the nearest Amtrak station.

Clarkdale has the Tuzigoot National Monument about 1 1/2 miles east of it.

″Tú Digiz/Tuzigoot″ is a Tonto Apache term for "crooked waters,"[6] from nearby Pecks Lake, a cutoff meander of the Verde River; from Tú Digiz one principal Tonto Apache clan gets its name. The pueblo was built by the Sinagua people between 1125 and 1400 CE. Tuzigoot is the largest and best preserved of the many Sinagua pueblo ruins in the Verde Valley. The ruins at Tuzigoot incorporate very few doors; instead, the inhabitants used ladders accessed by trapdoor type openings in the roofs to enter each room.

However, you can't actually get a train to Clarkdale or to the Verde Canyon RR; you can just take a bus to them.

Winslow, AZ has the Homolovi Archaeological Site on the city's northeast side

53443950-6f6f-4c4d-9e5f-0e2fb5157b76-fca999503a5c9260593a.jpg

Elden Pueblo Archaeological Site is on the north side of Flagstaff, which has an Amtrak station.

Walnut Canyon National Monument is about 4 miles east of Flagstaff:

Walnut-Canyon_credit-Micah-Adams_50f989c3c31d5b1d8623b67a92726880.jpg

The city of Phoenix also has a Metro rail system:

The 44th street station of both the Metro Rail and the airport's sky rail is by the Pueblo Grande site where there is a museum for the ruins.

Here is a photo of how the Pueblo Grande ruins used to look before urbanization:

Here is an artist's rendition of how it might have once looked:

About 1 mile north of the Country Club/Main St station in Mesa AZ, which is part of the Phoenix Metro Rail system, is the Mesa Grande Ruins. It's considered a Temple Mound, with Pueblo Grande in Phoenix being its sister.

The Phoenix city area is also special for having many miles of irrigation canals built by the Hohokam culture.

One of the canals around the city

Prehistoric Hohokam Irrigation Canals, Phoenix Metro

What you’re looking at, right here, is an ancient irrigation canal just north of downtown Tempe, Arizona. That’s right! And, it’s far from the only one in the Salt River Valley. It is believed that…

theazjones.com

Here is a map of New Mexico's major currently inhabited pueblos:

In New Mexico, the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad connects Chama, NM and Antonito CO. However, it doesn't look like it connects to any Amtrak lines.

Pecos Pueblo ruins are about 10 miles northeast of the Lamy, NM Amtrak station on the line from La Junta, CO to Albuquerque, NM.
They are also 1 mile south of the town of Pecos, NM and two miles north of Rowe, NM. Pecos doesn't have bus service, but the Orange NMDOT bus runs from Santa Fe to Rowe.

The Rio Metro rail line runs from Santa Fe in the North, through Albuquerque and down to Belen, NM.

Pojoaque is a Pueblo about 10 miles north of Santa Fe, and habitation there goes back to ~500 AD.

Tesuque Pueblo is about 5 miles north of Santa Fe.

tesuque-pueblo-in-santa-fe-county-new-mexico-united-states-of-america-with-houses-homes-buildings-view-of-a-small-native-american-village-in-the-rkrjj6.jpg

rakovsky · Oct 19, 2023

San Marcos Pueblo dates from ~1200 AD and is a site of ruins about 10 miles east of Kewa, which is on the railroad. From the sky, it looks empty:

It sounds like what happened is that in the 17th century, the Puebloans there revolted and the Spaniards moved the population far south in reprisal.

Galisteo Basin Archaeology | Pueblo San Marcos

galisteo.nmarchaeology.org

Kewa Pueblo (AKA Santo Domingo) is one of the train stops on the Metro Line to Santa Fe

1883 photo

San Felipe Pueblo is 5 miles southwest of Kewa.

Santa Ana Pueblo is on the line, just north of the Sandoval Co station, and is between San Felipe Pueblo and Albuquerque.

Near it is the Coronado Historic Site
These are the remains of a pueblo that the Spanish explorer Coronado visited:

Sandia Pueblo is another stop on the line:

Isleta Pueblo.
The Spanish mission is in the photo:

The southeast section of El Paso, TX on the Amtrak Line has the Ysleta del Sur Pueblo.

1876 photo

So in conclusion, the most impressive SW ruins like Mesa Verde and inhabited pueblo cities like Acoma Pueblo tend to be off the grid. But the Phoenix area's ruins are impressive, such as its irrigation canals. The Pueblo Grande ruins sound decent, and there are also the Casa Grande ruins in Coolidge, about 15-35 miles southwest of the Phoenix area, depending on whether you count Chandler on Phoenix's SE side as part of the Phoenix area.

Plus, there are actually quite a number of inhabited pueblos in the Rio Grande valley area from around Sante Fe down south to the Albuquerque area, and there is a metro line running between these two cities with stops at the pueblos in between. Winslow and Flagstaff also have OK precolumbian ruins and they connect by Amtrak train to Alburquerque.

A fun story about the Amerindians' civilization was the legend of the Seven Cities of Gold that the Spaniards came searching for in the 16th century.

The myth of the Seven Cities of Gold, also known as the Seven Cities of Cíbola (/ˈsiːbələ/), was popular in the 16th century and later featured in several works of popular culture. According to legend, the seven cities of gold referred to Aztec mythology revolving around the Pueblos of the Spanish Nuevo México, today's New Mexico and Southwestern United States.
...
In the 16th century, the Spaniards in New Spain (now Mexico) began to hear rumors of "Seven Cities of Gold" called "Cíbola" located across the desert, hundreds of miles to the north.[3] The stories may have their root in an earlier Portuguese legend about seven cities founded on the island of Antillia by a Catholic expedition in the 8th century, or one based on the capture of Mérida, Spain, by the Moors in 1150.

The later Spanish tales were largely caused by reports given by the four shipwrecked survivors of the failed Narváez expedition, which included explorers Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca and his slave Estevanico. Eventually returning to New Spain, the adventurers said they had heard stories from natives about cities with great and limitless riches. In 1539, Italian Franciscan Marco da Nizza reached Zuni Pueblo and called it Cibola. However, when conquistador Francisco Vázquez de Coronado finally arrived at Cíbola in 1540, he discovered that the stories were unfounded and that there were, in fact, no treasures as the friar had described—only adobe towns.[4]
...

The historic Cíbola on the other hand is recorded in Spanish sources as another name for the Zuñi pueblo and the surrounding country. The Spanish soon discovered rich copper and turquoise mines in the Pueblo country which made the region famous for its mineral wealth even in recent times. The Pueblo Indians, including the Zuñi, are still well known for their turquoise and silver work.

The Seven Cities of Gold (video game) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"America is young; If you go to Greece or Italy, you see amazing ancient ruins." Comments?

Is America a young country lacking ancient history, in light of the American Indians?

Yes

America is a young country, but it is also ancient in light of the American Indians' past.

No

Other Answer (Explain)

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