"America is young; If you go to Greece or Italy, you see amazing ancient ruins." Comments?

Is America a young country lacking ancient history, in light of the American Indians?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 27.3%
  • America is a young country, but it is also ancient in light of the American Indians' past.

    Votes: 19 57.6%
  • No

    Votes: 4 12.1%
  • Other Answer (Explain)

    Votes: 2 6.1%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
could have created a national narrative of continuity between the native American cultures,
Teue, it could have.

And it's exactly there the difference (it is why I added to "continuity" "transmission").

Ottoman Empire, as later Turkey too, created a narrative of "transmission" and Istanbul is a good example. We can talk about continuity.amd transmission in that case because there is an "objective" transmission (for example Agia Sophia is still there tho to a different role) coupled with a "narrational" transmission.

In the US case, on the other hand, not only there isn't an "objective teamsmition" (pre-Columbian monuments still existing are there mostly by mere chance only) but there was also the opposite: a desire to not have a "narrational " transmission.

You know: "a good Indian is a dead Indian".
 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky and robto
Joined Feb 2022
2,575 Posts | 2,011+
Washington, DC
Teue, it could have.

And it's exactly there the difference (it is why I added to "continuity" "transmission").

Ottoman Empire, as later Turkey too, created a narrative of "transmission" and Istanbul is a good example. We can talk about continuity.amd transmission in that case because there is an "objective" transmission (for example Agia Sophia is still there tho to a different role) coupled with a "narrational" transmission.

In the US case, on the other hand, not only there isn't an "objective teamsmition" (pre-Columbian monuments still existing are there mostly by mere chance only) but there was also the opposite: a desire to not have a "narrational " transmission.

You know: "a good Indian is a dead Indian".
Turkish nationalism is a rather curious animal though, because they simultaneously claim all of the prior history of Anatolia *and* all of the prior history of Turkic tribes, which somewhat inflates their sense of self importance to say the least.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
That's only because modern Italy is wealthier and more influential than modern Tunisia, so its nationalist narrative has found more purchase internationally
No.

It's because Carthage and Carthaginians were whipped by Romans. Is like in my reply to @robto on US: Romans wanted to cut any transmission, any continuity. They largely succeeded. If Attila would had conquered Rome, demolished it, masacrated Romans, there wouldn't have been any continuity nor transmission.

Similar cases (or close to) US and Carthage aren't that rare in Europe and many are extremely recent. Kaliningrad could be an example: yes, the historical center is still there, but it is actually an empty shell. Soviets made sure that not only the Germanic population cease to exist (physically) but their rembrembance too. I think "Damnatio memoriae" was the Roman term for it.
 
Joined Feb 2022
2,575 Posts | 2,011+
Washington, DC
No.

It's because Carthage and Carthaginians were whipped by Romans. Is like in my reply to @robto on US: Romans wanted to cut any transmission, any continuity. They largely succeeded. If Attila would had conquered Rome, demolished it, masacrated Romans, there wouldn't have been any continuity nor transmission.

Similar cases (or close to) US and Carthage aren't that rare in Europe and many are extremely recent. Kaliningrad could be an example: yes, the historical center is still there, but it is actually an empty shell. Soviets made sure that not only the Germanic population cease to exist (physically) but their rembrembance too. I think "Damnatio memoriae" was the Roman term for it.
The Romans refounded Carthage about 100 years after they destroyed it, and while there would have been a small elite of Roman colonists, most of the people would probably have been local Punics or Berbers because the Roman only exterminated the population of the city, not the entire surrounding area. Punic continued to be spoken in Carthage up until the time of St. Augustine, and neither the Vandal or Arab conquests would have left a significant demographic imprint aside from the ruling class, so it's perfectly reasonable for someone in Tunisia to view the Carthaginians as their ancestors.

And not for nothing, but in around the same period of time, Italy saw successive waves of migration and colonization from Ostrogoths, Lombards, Normans, etc. and remained a political patchwork with no unified identity until the 19th century. This idea that the modern Italian state descends in an unbroken line from the Roman Empire is pure nationalist propaganda and would be laughable if people weren't so obsessed with the idea of keeping the flame of Roman civilization alive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
The Romans refounded Carthage about 100 years after they destroyed it, and while there would have been a small elite of Roman colonists, most of the people would probably have been local Punics or Berbers because the Roman only exterminated the population of the city, not the entire surrounding area. Punic continued to be spoken in Carthage up until the time of St. Augustine, and neither the Vandal or Arab conquests would have left a significant demographic imprint aside from the ruling class, so it's perfectly reasonable for someone in Tunisia to view the Carthaginians as their ancestors.

And not for nothing, but in around the same period of time, Italy saw successive waves of migration and colonization from Ostrogoths, Lombards, Normans, etc. and remained a political patchwork with no unified identity until the 19th century. This idea that the modern Italian state descends in an unbroken line from the Roman Empire is pure nationalist propaganda and would be laughable if people weren't so obsessed with the idea of keeping the flame of Roman civilization alive.
I wasn't talking about the "propaganda" and definitely not about " state direct descendance".

Probably I didn't expressed myself coherently.

So let's agree to disagree.
 
Joined Aug 2016
537 Posts | 151+
USA
Last edited:
"States come and go, people remains".
There's an issue with that kind of logic: the continuity, or maybe better said, the transmission.

In the US case, it's not simply about creating a new state but about whipping out the precedent cultures, civilisation and populations. It's a cultural rupture that didn't existed in the cases of Norway, Greece, Italy (to remain at the cases mentioned).
Hello, Deaf!

Your statement applies to early 20th century Turkey ideologically more than to the US. Turkification did include a deliberate ideological process of whipping out the Greek and Armenian population, with mixed respect for Greek civilization.

The US is not an "Anglo-American State", nor is it even ideologically a "European-American State." They US has never formally considered itself in those terms. The official language nationally is English, but some states like the partly Spanish-language state of New Mexico have also official non-English languages in addition. Purely English-heritage persons must make up only a tiny percent of the total population. The foundational colonial "planter" population had Native American descent at least through Pocahontas.

The US did not have an ideology of whipping out the Amerindian culture and civilization per se, and US respect for their culture and civilization has been mixed and conflicted. The US does have ideological respect for the native American population, but real life experience on them has been contradictory historically, with benefits like tax free status for Amerindian citizens being some of the best and cases of genocide being the worst.

So to give an example of this contradiction: Native American reservations have ideologically been places of respect because they have self-governance. But I heard about a rule that at least on some reservation in the past, Native Americans were not allowed to leave the reservation. I can go on with more contradictions.

If strictly speaking US ideology taught to whip out the precedent cultures, civilization, etc., we wouldn't have so many important states, cities, and geographic places named after Amerindians.

ALABAMA: From an Indian tribe of the Creek Confederacy originally called the Alabamas or Alibamons, who in turn gave the name to a river from which the State name was derived.

ALASKA: From Eskimo word "alakshak”, meaning peninsula; also said to mean "great lands."

ARIZONA: Many authorities attribute the meaning to a word meaning arid zone or desert. Others claim the name is Aztec, from "arizuma" meaning "silver bearing." Still another version: attributes the origin to the Papagos tribe of the Southwest, wruc named it from the locality in which they lived called Arizonac, meaning "site of the small springs" (lack of water). This place was near the present town of Nogales, and in the early 1700's, silver ..was discovered near here, which gives some credence to the Aztec word "arizuma."

ARKANSAS.: Origin uncertain. As usual with words of Indian origin, there are various spellings for this State name, among them Alkansia, Alkansas, and Akamsea. The word, according to some, is of Algonquin origin, and the meaning is unknown. Others say that Arkansas is a French version of "Kansas, a Sioux Indian name for “south wind people.”

CALIFORNIA: Generally agreed that Cortez first applied the name, the origin is traced to the name of an imaginary island in an old Spanish romance written by Montalvo in 1510. The island is described as an earthly paradise, abundant with gold and precious gems.

COLORADO: Presumably named from the river bearing the name, although only tributaries flow through the State. Other theories are that it might have come from the Spanish word meaning "rad" or "ruddy," describing the color of the stream in various places or the red earth found in some areas.

CONNECTICUT: Appears to be a derivation of the Indian word "Quonoktacut" (also Quonecktacut) , interpreted by some to mean "river whose water is driven in waves by tides O:c:" winds." Other interpretations include "long river," "the long ({without end) river," and "long river place."

DELAWARE: Named for Lord De La Warr, first governor and captain-general of Virginia, who in 1630 explored the bay and river area where his name was first applied.

FLORIDA: In 1513, Ponce de Leon landed here on Easter Sunday, the Spanish Pascua de Flores, meaning "Feast of Flowers," for which the State is named.

GEORGIA.: Named by and for King George II of England. The colony bore this name in the charter granted by the king to General James Oglethorpe, colonial administrator, in 1732.

HAWAII: English spelling of Owhyhee, possibly from a native word meaning "homeland.”

IDAHO: Origin uncertain. Some claim it to sterol from an Indian word of unknown meaning, while others claim the mean1img "gem of the mountains," which properly describes the State especially because Indian translations quite often referred to natural features of surrounding country. Another claim is the Shoshone translation of "Edah hoe," or "light on the mountains."

ILLINOIS: From the Illini Indian word meaning "men" or "warriors,” supplemented by the French adjective ending "ois..”

INDIANA: Presumably named from the fact that the land lying along the Ohio River was purchased from the Indians. Others claim it was named for the Indian tribes who settled in western Pennsylvania.

IOWA: From an Indian tribe, "Ah-hee-oo-ba," meaning "sleepy ones" or "drowsy ones." They lived in the valley of the State's principal river, which they named for their tribe; and, in turn, the name was applied to the State.

KANSAS: Named for the Kansas or Kanza tribe of the Sioux family that lived along a river in the area and gave it the tribal name. The name translates as "south wind people," or "wind people."

KENTUCKY: Origin and meaning controversial. Pioneer George Rogers Clark claimed the name was derived from the Indian word "Kentake," meaning "meadow land." The claim is also made that it stems from the Shawnee word meaning "at the head of a river" inasmuch as they used the Kentucky River in traveling throughout the area. It is also claimed to stem from the Wyandot word "Ken-tah-ten," meaning "land of tomorrow."

LOUISIANA: Named in honor of Louis XIV of France. First used in 1683 by the French explorer, Rene Robert Cavelier de La Salle, and was applied to the territory- encompassing the drainage basin of the Mississippi and its tributaries.

MAINE: Two versions: One is that it was so called by early explorers after the private estate of Henrietta Maria in Maine, a French province; the other attributes it to fishermen of the islands along the coast who referred to it as the main or mainland, often spelled "Maynland" in some early documents. In a grant to Sir Fernando Gorges by Charles I in 1639, it is referred to as “the province or county of Mayne.“

MARYLAND: Named for Queen Henrietta Maria, wife of Charles I of England.

MASSACHUSETTS: First of the States to have an Indian name. From the Algonquin word "Massadchu-es-et," meaning "great-hill-small-place,” possibly for the hills around Boston as seen from the bay."

MICHIGAN.: From Algonquin word "Mishigamaw," meaning “big lake” or “great water,” deriving its name from the lake of the same name. Also said to be from "Michi" meaning "great" and "Gama" meaning “water.”

MINNESOTA: From Sioux word meaning "cloudy water" or “sky-tinted water,” deriving its name from the river of the same name.

MISSISSIPPI: Meaning "great river" or "gathering-in of all the waters," sometimes referred to as the "father of waters," indicating that the Indians were aware of the immensity of the river. First written by Tonti as "Michi Sepe.”

MISSOURI: An Indian tribal name denoting "muddy water” and named for the large river.

MONTANA: Controversial from the standpoint of whether the name is Spanish or Latin, but quite descriptive; it means “mountainous.”

NEBRASKA: From Sioux word describing the river from which the State gets its name, meaning "shallow water" or "broad water." Also said to be an Otos Indian word meaning "flat river," referring to the Platte River.

NEVADA: From the Spanish word meaning “snow-clad,” “snowy land,” or “snowy” - descriptive of the snow-clad mountains of the area.

NEW HAMPSHIRE: Named in 1629 by John Mason for the English county of Hampshire.

NEW JERSEY: Named for the Isle of Jersey off the coast of England by George Carteret, who settled in this area after receiving it in a grant from the Duke of York.

NEW MEXICO: Called "New Mexico" when the Mexicans referred to the territory north and west of the Rio Grande in the 16th century. May have been derived from the name of the Aztec war god, "Mexitli" still another interpretation is that it means "habitation of the god of war.”

NEW YORK: Originally called New Netherlands, but changed in 1664 when taken over by the English and named in honor of the Duke of York.

NORTH CAROLINA: In the early 1600's, the area was referred to in some English papers as Carolina and was thought to be named for Charles I of England. Later, about 1663, the name Carolina was definitely applied by those who had received a grant to the land from Charles II, and so it was named in his honor.

NORTH DAKOTA: From Indian name meaning "allies. "' Indian form is - Lakota, Nakota, Lahkota, or Dakota, depending on dialect. "Allies" was used to signify the common name of the confederated Sioux tribes.

OHIO: Iroquois Indian word meaning the river of the same name. "beautiful river," taken from the river of the same name.

OKLAHOMA: Choctaw Indian word meaning “red people."

OREGON: One theory is that the name is derived from "origanum," a species of wild sage which grows abundantly on the coast of Oregon; another, that it stems from the Spanish "Oregones," which referred to the Indian tribes inhabiting the region and meant "big-eared men." Joaquin Miller, poet of the Sierras" gave another version - that the name came from the Spanish "alura agua" meaning "gently falling waters."

PENNSYLVANIA: This is the only State in the Union named for its founder, William Penn, who wanted to call it "Sylvania" because of the extensive forest areas.

RHODE ISLAND: Originally called "Roode Eylandt'" by the Dutch Navigator Adrian Block (for whom Block Island was named), presumably from the redness of the clay in the area along the shore. Name was later anglicized to Rhode Island. Also said to have been named from the Island of Rhodes in the Mediterranean, but several historians give this little or no support.

SOUTH CAROLINA: Named for Charles II of England, the same as its sister State, North Carolina. (See North Carolina.)

SOUTH DAKOTA: From Sioux Indian name meaning “allies.” (See North Dakota.)

TENNESSEE: Name is of Cherokee origin from a tribe located at a village site called Tanasse (also spelled Tennese). The State is named for its principal river, which has been interpreted as meaning "bend in the river." However, this has not been substantiated, and the meaning is considered to be lost.

TEXAS.: The generally accepted version is that the name is an Indian word "tejas," meaning "friends" or "allies."

UTAH: Name taken from the Ute Indians who inhabited that region, but origin of the word is unknown.

VERMONT: Named by Samuel de Champlain (the famous lake's namesake) for the Green Mountains (Vert Mont), a range which is one of the outstanding features in the State.

VIRGINIA: Named by Sir Walter Raleigh for Elizabeth, the Virgin Queen of England.

WASHINGTON: May be said to have a truly American name - named for George Washington, "The Father of our Country." When the bill creating the Territory of Columbia was introduced in the 32nd Congress, the name was changed to Washington because of the existence of the District of Columbia.

WEST VIRGINIA: Originally a part of Virginia. When the western counties left Virginia (rejecting secession), they retained a portion of the original name. It was suggested that it be named "Kanawha," an Indian name and the name of one of its principal rivers, but this was not adopted.

WISCONSIN: From an Indian name whose meaning is uncertain. Named after its principal river and said to mean "wild rushing channel;" also refers to "holes in the banks of a stream in which birds nest." Spelled Ouisconsin and Misconsing by early chroniclers.

WYOMING.: Name has more than one meaning as interpreted by different authorities. One meaning is "extensive plains" (from the Delaware or Leni-Lenape word "maugh-wau-wama"). Another interpretation suggests that the name means "mountains with valleys alternating."
To say that Norway, Italy, and Greece didn't have cultural ruptures with previous cultures looks questionable at best. This is because like the US, chronologically those countries had ancient non-dominant ethnicities on their territory, but unlike the US, each of those countries are classically designed as nationalistic "nation-states."

Norwegian is a Germanic language, and what I quoted said that the Germanic people may have come to Norway in the 3rd millenium BC, whereas the land was already inhabited since 50,000-7000 BC, like by stone age people. Who knows what kind of cultural rupture happened then. Likewise, Germanic Norwegian culture is not considered a continuation of the Lapp culture, language, and society of the nation's far north, is it?

lapland-map.jpeg.webp


The same goes for Italy. The Greeks, Phoenicians, Nuralgic culture, and Celts built civilizations and societies on Italy's territory in ancient times, and the Romans conquered those societies. Typically people think of each of those cultures as separate from the Roman civilization and Italian ethnicity, although someone can see how those people actually partly make up the modern Italian people, just as by the way Amerindians have made up part of the "American people." The US has Amerindian Reservations, but does Italy have Greek, Phoenician, Nuralgic, or Celtic self-governing regions?
1058.png

Magna Graecia: Ancient Greek colonies in southern Italy

In ancient times, the Greeks had a policy of Hellenization, which by the way led to the Maccabean revolt. The Greeks had conflicts with the non-Greek Albanians and Thracians who lived there in ancient times, and if there were any other non-Greeks in Greece, they don't have an autonomous province there today that I'm aware of.
988px-The_region_of_Chameria_between_Albania_and_Greece.png
 
Joined Aug 2016
537 Posts | 151+
USA
@robto
The USA, like numerous other societies and empires in the past, has historically had a mass of contradictions with very progressive and democratic, or reactionary or oppressive aspects. In this case, the USA, Canada, European Union, and USSR dedicated themselves as above-national countries, unlike the classic concept of European nation states' "nationalism." So for instance, the US classically has been officially a nation of all its peoples, which is very progressive. You could, in principle, become a full American through immigration, whereas since childhood I've long thought that there were tons of cool things with the Portuguese and could become a citizen of Portugal But I could never become a full Portuguese myself in the eyes of other Portuguese.

A few years ago I visited southern New England and was alittle surprised to see how much Portuguese culture and heritage is there, with museums dedicated to Portuguese American fishing heritage going back centuries. It's not even questioned whether it's a legitimate part of the American experience, heritage and historical culture. They have been very skilled with seafaring and fishing and seafood cuisine.
New_England_ancestry_by_county_-_updated.png

However, I would just expect that there were times with discrimination over the centuries of US history against Portuguese-Americans for being swarthy Mediterranean Catholics. So it's a very mixed history. And in those kinds of situations people are going to get biases or motivations pushing them to emphasize one aspect of American history or the opposite aspect.

So one person can emphasize how America is a nation of "liberty and justice for all" (Pledge of Allegance), and someone else can point to cases of historical abuses and persecution in the US, which can be unacknowledged officially or by US establishment-minded people today.
 
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
@robto
The USA, like numerous other societies and empires in the past, has historically had a mass of contradictions with very progressive and democratic, or reactionary or oppressive aspects. In this case, the USA, Canada, European Union, and USSR dedicated themselves as above-national countries, unlike the classic concept of European nation states' "nationalism." So for instance, the US classically has been officially a nation of all its peoples, which is very progressive. You could, in principle, become a full American through immigration, whereas since childhood I've long thought that there were tons of cool things with the Portuguese and could become a citizen of Portugal But I could never become a full Portuguese myself in the eyes of other Portuguese.
Of course, you could be Portuguese. It all depended on how well you spoke the language and how socially integrated you were in Portugal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky
Joined Aug 2016
537 Posts | 151+
USA
Ottoman Empire, as later Turkey too, created a narrative of "transmission" and Istanbul is a good example. We can talk about continuity.amd transmission in that case because there is an "objective" transmission (for example Agia Sophia is still there tho to a different role) coupled with a "narrational" transmission.

In the US case, on the other hand, not only there isn't an "objective teamsmition" (pre-Columbian monuments still existing are there mostly by mere chance only) but there was also the opposite: a desire to not have a "narrational " transmission.
Saying that Turkey has objective transmission but US does not have objective transmission sounds fictional.

The Ottomans conquered Istanbul, turned Agia Sophia into a mosque, covered up the internal artwork, and your conclusion seems to be that this counted as objective transmission because it was intentional preservation of the site.

By comparison, in the US, there are official US national park landmark sites like Chaco Canyon, Mesa Verde, and others that were made by Native Americans. If anyone goes there today with a bulldozer, knocks the places down, and says that they are destroying them for not other reason than trying to defend "American culture" against the Indians, the person will go to prison.

The Smithsonian has a Museum of the Native American. There are tons of Native American museums around the country with federal subsidies. The country is objectively preserving and transmitting Amerindian culture.

hq720.jpg
 
Joined Aug 2016
537 Posts | 151+
USA
Last edited:
Of course, you could be Portuguese. It all depended on how well you spoke the language and how socially integrated you were in Portugal.
From the European nationalistic classical ethnic POV, I could never be ethnically Portuguese, since none of my ancestors are known to be Portuguese.
On the other hand, whereas a German nationalist ideology would never consider you fully German even if you picked up the culture, you could become fully "American" from the POV of classical US ideology. Ethnicity is not an issue for becoming fully "American."

I know about the difference from living in Europe myself almost a year. A lot of people ask you where you are from and what your ethnic background is, and it's natural for you to have some desire to say that you have the national ethnicity to fit in. Portuguese nationalism, Spanish nationalism, etc. - these in the 19th century all had a big dose of ethno-centrism that is not overcome by getting the right culture.

Don't get me wrong, there are intolerant Americans who complain about minority cultures, but the way that these constructs work, those minority persons are not inherently ethnically less American per se as a matter of logic. To give an example of what I mean: in the nasty narrative of anti-black racism in the 19th century, Blacks were not really accused of being "non-American," but rather the accusation was that they had the wrong "race." The same kind of thing would apply to the Native Americans. Of course, people are contradictory. Probably some intolerant American could always call you a foreigner with foreign ethnicity even if you got citizenship and fully assimilated, but that is not how the national ideology works. Portuguese Americans don't lack "American ethnicity."
 
Joined Aug 2016
537 Posts | 151+
USA
No.

It's because Carthage and Carthaginians were whipped by Romans. Is like in my reply to @robto on US: Romans wanted to cut any transmission, any continuity. They largely succeeded. If Attila would had conquered Rome, demolished it, masacrated Romans, there wouldn't have been any continuity nor transmission.

Similar cases (or close to) US and Carthage aren't that rare in Europe and many are extremely recent. Kaliningrad could be an example: yes, the historical center is still there, but it is actually an empty shell. Soviets made sure that not only the Germanic population cease to exist (physically) but their rembrembance too. I think "Damnatio memoriae" was the Roman term for it.
Right.... The US situation is not as extreme as what you are describing.

The US did not want to cut all population and cultural transmission from the whole Amerindian population to today. They didn't salt the main cities to stop regrowth like the Romans did in Carthage. They didn't leave the whole country an empty shell devoid of Amerindians and their remembrance. Amerindians aren't "Damnatio Memoriae."

Clearly this is a multi-sided issue. But Yes, there were major cases of genocide and expulsion of the Amerindians, so putting a nice face on it is not great either.
 
Joined Feb 2021
1,122 Posts | 1,700+
Italy
Right.... The US situation is not as extreme as what you are describing.

The US did not want to cut all population and cultural transmission from the whole Amerindian population to today. They didn't salt the main cities to stop regrowth like the Romans did in Carthage. They didn't leave the whole country an empty shell devoid of Amerindians and their remembrance. Amerindians aren't "Damnatio Memoriae."

Clearly this is a multi-sided issue. But Yes, there were major cases of genocide and expulsion of the Amerindians, so putting a nice face on it is not great either.

Just a quick note and then I will disappear in the shadow again: the Romans actually did not salt Carthage. That is a common myth. No ancient sources talk about that:

At least as early as 1863,[7] various texts claimed that the Roman general Scipio Aemilianus plowed over and sowed the city of Carthage with salt after defeating it in the Third Punic War (146 BC), sacking it, and enslaving the survivors. The salting was probably modeled on the story of Shechem. Though ancient sources do mention symbolically drawing a plow over various cities and salting them, none mention Carthage in particular.[3] The salting story entered the academic literature in Bertrand Hallward's article in the first edition of the Cambridge Ancient History (1930), and was widely accepted as factual.[8] However, there are no ancient sources for it and it is now considered legendary.[1][9][8]

From Wikipedia:

 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky
Joined Aug 2016
537 Posts | 151+
USA
Last edited:
Just a quick note and then I will disappear in the shadow again: the Romans actually did not salt Carthage. That is a common myth. No ancient sources talk about that:
Thanks, Pima.
Yes, it's too bad how some of these academic "urban myths" show up in literature and become common non-knowledge.
Another thing that reminds me of: Constantine the Great killed one of his rivals, Licinius. In a bunch of English-language references it says he hanged him, which is a nasty way to kill someone. But I could not actually find a good source for this, like some kind of medieval Italian history book, and the typical sources like the Italian Wikipedia article just say that he excuted him, without specification. I would hope that Christian saints would tend to kill people in more human ways if at all: the classic humane Roman method was beheading. Maybe you can find out in a more reliable source what happened.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: Pima
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
From the European nationalistic classical ethnic POV, I could never be ethnically Portuguese, since none of my ancestors are known to be Portuguese.
On the other hand, whereas a German nationalist ideology would never consider you fully German even if you picked up the culture, you could become fully "American" from the POV of classical US ideology. Ethnicity is not an issue for becoming fully "American."

I know about the difference from living in Europe myself almost a year. A lot of people ask you where you are from and what your ethnic background is, and it's natural for you to have some desire to say that you have the national ethnicity to fit in. Portuguese nationalism, Spanish nationalism, etc. - these in the 19th century all had a big dose of ethno-centrism that is not overcome by getting the right culture.

Don't get me wrong, there are intolerant Americans who complain about minority cultures, but the way that these constructs work, those minority persons are not inherently ethnically less American per se as a matter of logic. To give an example of what I mean: in the nasty narrative of anti-black racism in the 19th century, Blacks were not really accused of being "non-American," but rather the accusation was that they had the wrong "race." The same kind of thing would apply to the Native Americans. Of course, people are contradictory. Probably some intolerant American could always call you a foreigner with foreign ethnicity even if you got citizenship and fully assimilated, but that is not how the national ideology works. Portuguese Americans don't lack "American ethnicity."

You are painting this with a very broad brush. Portuguese national identity never had an explicit or official ethnic basis, and it's even considered taboo to ever refer to the Portuguese as a definable ethnicity, or even officially to recognize that ethnic communities are living within Portugal.
I don't know what European country you lived in, but not all European countries are the same, and not all construct their own national identity in the same manner.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky
Joined Aug 2016
537 Posts | 151+
USA
You are painting this with a very broad brush. Portuguese national identity never had an explicit or official ethnic basis, and it's even considered taboo to ever refer to the Portuguese as a definable ethnicity, or even officially to recognize that ethnic communities are living within Portugal.
I don't know what European country you lived in, but not all European countries are the same, and not all construct their own national identity in the same manner.
OK, I will try to explain better what I am talking about. In the US over the past 200 years, relatively few Americans would consider themselves generically ethnic "American" when asked in surveys about their ethnicity, race or inherited nationality. They would typically answer Irish, German, Portuguese, Native American, etc. It's not as if in conventional thinking that there would be an answer that would put you outside an "American ethnicity." This is part of the aspect of Native Americans' continuity with the current USA's society. Or to find a similar case, I expect that Brazilians, Cubans, and Mexicans would not divide themselves into Brazilian, Cuban, "Mexican ethnicities" vs. minorities who were non-Brazilian, etc.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Turkey in the early 20th century had a policy of Turkification, so putting yourself in the Greek or Armenian ethnic category would put you outside of the nationalistic Turkish ideology.

If one were to put the more nationalistic construct onto the case of Portugal, nationalists might hypothesize that some people like the Moors, Romani, Spanish, Sephardics, and Brazilians had a separate ethnicity. What I get from you on the other hand, is that those kinds of constructs are not part of Portuguese national consciousness, ie. that Portuguese ethnic identity does not count as a separate ethnicity from Brazilian citizens of Portugal.

Widely regarded as one of Portugal’s greatest poets, Camoes is commemorated on June 10 in a national holiday called Portugal Day.

The holiday used to be known as the “Day of the Portuguese Race,” and was promoted by conservative nationalist Antonio de Oliveira Salazar, dictator between 1933 and 1968, as a nationalist celebration. This continued until the end of the authoritarian regime he established, the “Estado Novo”, in 1974.
...
The Moor became Portugal’s stereotypical “other” as European identity was being shaped in opposition to Islam. Although the term “Moor” traditionally referred to Arabic-speaking Muslims in North Africa, the label was often used to broadly refer to Muslims, reducing their diversity to a mass of otherness.
The article makes it sound as if the nation is trying to get away from racist/ethnocentrist politics.

The forum has a thread here called "Origins of the Portuguese people".

Latino Europa, based in Matinsinhos, Portugal, writes:
The Portuguese are a population of Southern Europe. Its ethnic origin is essentially a mixture of CELTAS and IBERAS tribes (called CELTIBEROS, such as LUSITANOS, Calaicos or Gallaeci and Cónios, among others less significant, such as Bracari, Celtici, Coelerni, Eqvaesi, Grovii, Interamici, Levni , Luanqvi, Limici, Narbasi, Nemetati, Paesvri, Qvaqverni, Sevrbi, Tamagani, Tapoli, Zoelae, Turduli).
A debate followed, with Frank81 from the Canary islands replying,
Iberian footprint in Portugal is very thin to none. Only in the extrem south there're some traces of Turdetanians.
On the other hand, pre-Roman Celtic and Lusitanians were of much heavier importance. But then you have the Suevi, who settled in northern Portugal in great numbers, and of Berbers, in central and southern Portugal, whatever a minority they were. The same for French colonists in Middle Ages.
In any case, the key ethnic group was Italic. Portugueses are, over all, a Roman people.

In any case, while I can immigrate and belong to the Portuguese nation by citizenship, I can't become Portuguese by the ethnic definition of Portuguese.

The Wikipedia articles on the "Portuguese people" say:
The Portuguese people (Portuguese: Portugueses – masculine – or Portuguesas) are a Romance-speaking ethnic group and nation indigenous to Portugal, a country in the west of the Iberian Peninsula in the south-west of Europe, who share a common culture, ancestry and language.

Portugueses são um povo e grupo étnico da Península Ibérica, no sudoeste da Europa. O português é a sua língua, e o catolicismo a religião nominalmente predominante.
 
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
OK, I will try to explain better what I am talking about. In the US over the past 200 years, relatively few Americans would consider themselves generically ethnic "American" when asked in surveys about their ethnicity, race or inherited nationality. They would typically answer Irish, German, Portuguese, Native American, etc. It's not as if in conventional thinking that there would be an answer that would put you outside an "American ethnicity." This is part of the aspect of Native Americans' continuity with the current USA's society. Or to find a similar case, I expect that Brazilians, Cubans, and Mexicans would not divide themselves into Brazilian, Cuban, "Mexican ethnicities" vs. minorities who were non-Brazilian, etc.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Turkey in the early 20th century had a policy of Turkification, so putting yourself in the Greek or Armenian ethnic category would put you outside of the nationalistic Turkish ideology.

If one were to put the more nationalistic construct onto the case of Portugal, nationalists might hypothesize that some people like the Moors, Romani, Spanish, Sephardics, and Brazilians had a separate ethnicity. What I get from you on the other hand, is that those kinds of constructs are not part of Portuguese national consciousness, ie. that Portuguese ethnic identity does not count as a separate ethnicity from Brazilian citizens of Portugal.

Widely regarded as one of Portugal’s greatest poets, Camoes is commemorated on June 10 in a national holiday called Portugal Day.

The holiday used to be known as the “Day of the Portuguese Race,” and was promoted by conservative nationalist Antonio de Oliveira Salazar, dictator between 1933 and 1968, as a nationalist celebration. This continued until the end of the authoritarian regime he established, the “Estado Novo”, in 1974.
...
The Moor became Portugal’s stereotypical “other” as European identity was being shaped in opposition to Islam. Although the term “Moor” traditionally referred to Arabic-speaking Muslims in North Africa, the label was often used to broadly refer to Muslims, reducing their diversity to a mass of otherness.
The article makes it sound as if the nation is trying to get away from racist/ethnocentrist politics.

The forum has a thread here called "Origins of the Portuguese people".

Latino Europa, based in Matinsinhos, Portugal, writes:

A debate followed, with Frank81 from the Canary islands replying,


In any case, while I can immigrate and belong to the Portuguese nation by citizenship, I can't become Portuguese by the ethnic definition of Portuguese.

The Wikipedia articles on the "Portuguese people" say:

I'm Portuguese, and I've studied this very topic at a university level in a Portuguese university institution so I'm more qualified to talk about this subject than an Al Jazeera news article (which talks about religious identity, not ethnic identity).
And most importantly, I'm from a non-European racial background and I look visibly, and without a question, as being not from anywhere in Europe. And even with that, even with being constantly mistaken as a foreign whenever I encountered strangers while growing up in Portugal, those same strangers would completely accept me and treat me as Portuguese by the time I opened my mouth, and most importantly, by the time they knew my social circle and cultural habits.

Now getting away from my personal experience, and more academically: Of course plenty of Portuguese ideologues - primarily in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries - tried to construe an ethnonational discourse, but both the constitutional monarchy and first Republic regimes always were very clear in affirming a civic nationalist status to the Portuguese nation.

Salazar's Portugal also attempted to create a more ethnonational identity in the 1930s, but it quickly fell out of flavor given the fact WWII happened, and anything pushing too close to fascism became politically inappropriate. Salazar and the rest of the Estado Novo regime from the 1950s onward then adopted the Brazilian mythology of "Lusotropicalism" in which they asserted that Portugal had been a multicultural, multiracial, and pluricontinental nation since the 15th century, and by that, losing its overseas territories in Africa and Asia would dismember the country and end Portuguese independence.
Of course, that narrative had its negative side, since it promoted a sort of paternal racism towards the colonized peoples, and it was completely contradicted by the exploitative reality in the colonies, but it was believed by many Portuguese people, and it continues to be believed now.

After the 1974 revolution, Portugal started to promote a very aggressive form of civic nationalism, in which even thinking about putting up surveys about ethnicity, or race is borderline unlawful and unconstitutional, although the "Lusotropicalist" narrative still exists in various forms.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky
Joined Aug 2016
537 Posts | 151+
USA
Thanks for your input on this, @robto . I am glad to hear about your positive life experiences in Portugal and the country's major anti-racist trend in its history. It's nice for me to talk with you about this.

In looking for articles on the topic, I came across one that said that relative to other west European countries, Portugal had a pretty low portion of its politics being on the ethno-supremacist right wing scale.
"A Portuguese Exception to Right Wing Populism."

A Portuguese exception to right-wing populism - Humanities and Social Sciences Communications

Some of the articles that I found in a brief search focused on a dry anthropological perspective about Portuguese heritage and ethnicity, whereas the rest focused on specifically measuring the scope of right wing ethnic supremacist factions in Portuguese history. Certainly these are two different categories. You can identify people as belonging to different ethnic categories, and if you do, then should without being particularly xenophobic or discriminatory.

Here is a bit of my own impression: If you are talking about a subject nation under colonial or imperial rule, then nationalism can take a progressive, humanitarian form. For instance suppose that Portugal as an empire was harvesting slaves from an African nation like Angola. It seems natural that if the African nation had a nationalist movement that was trying to gain independence from Portugal and stop the slave trade in the country then the movement would be progressive.

On the other hand, Portugal, the country where you are living, in that relationship would be the colonizing, enslaving nation. For Portugal at that time as a colonial power to have an ethno-nationalistic movement aimed at empowering the empire of the "Portuguese people" would seem to be not particularly progressive or egalitarian. So for instance, Michele A. from Italy wrote:
Now, since all national constructs are ex-post and artificial, including obviously the Puebloans' and the Romans', we're left with the alternative - based on present-day state borders - of saying that the Portuguese monuments in Angola are actually Angolan monuments...
Sorry, I don't find that useful for one who, for instance, just wants to understand who the heck actually built those.
If you take the ethno-nationalist approach to Portugal, then you end up thinking that Portugal, a nation in Europe, built Angola's monuments, and thus the monuments are not just part of Portugal's history, but also not part of Angola's, the subject nation. This rationale looks different than the Lusotropic ideology that you talked about, and for that matter you could construct a narrative whereby colonial Angola's history is prt of Portugal's history and of course also part of Angola's own history.

If one supposes an ideology whereby subject peoples and their territory are part of the nation (like colonial Angola belonging to the nation of Portugal), then why wouldn't the nation's achievements in that minority territory belong to both the ruling nation and to the colonial territory?

Clearly this is a multi-sided issue with multiple points of view and ideological frameworks, and it's hard to be really neutral. It wouldn't be right to deny the damage that the US army did to the Native Americans, like with the Cherokee Trail of Tears, but nor would it be correct to portray the history as absolute ethnic cleansing - otherwise the Cherokee wouldn't have reservation land today in North Carolina. Oklahoma is a large state, and traditionally it's been deliberately dedicated to the Cherokees. I had an uncle who was Cherokee from Oklahoma. He was really a very nice and good person. I love him. He was an amazing athlete too. His son as a football player raced across the field like a panther - amazing physique.

And that's just one example. If you say "America has belonged to the Native Americans since the first time that they came here", you would seem to be talking about it in some Amerindian geographic heritage sense. It would be a different framework from the concept that "America began at Jamestown." The standard American history narrative in the sense of textbooks does actually begin American history with the arrival of the Amerindians in North America. But the problem with strictly thinking of it in those terms is that America also has a major english colonialist and post-colonialist supra-ethnic aspect.

I can see that someone would consider the narrative that Amerindian history is part of US history to be a denial of the domination and subjugation of Amerindians. However, there is also the problem that if one denies that pre-colonial Amerindian history is part of American history, then the denial can match Eurocentric denials of pre-colonial heritage in general. If you say that "America is one of the top leading nations" and that "Amerindians only belong to that major nation's history to the extent that they were subjugated", then depending on the interpretation that one gives, Amerindians' heritage's worth may depend more or less on their status as a subjugated people.

I get the sense, and I could be wrong, that commonly Europeans are disconnecting Amerindian history from American history out of concern for Amerindians because they don't want to deny the genocide of Amerindians and ethnic cleansing. At least that's the sense that I get from a lot of the posts above.

But classically, denials of Amerindians' connection to America and their pre-columbian importance came from a Euro-centric perspective, ie. the perspective that American history began at Jamestown has the possible negative implication that pre-Jamestown Amerindian history is not part of American history, and so it's not particularly important for national history. So if you're an American kid, the implication would be that learning about American Indian culture is not really important, or anyway it would be like learning about the history of Canada or Mexico - someplace at hand geographically but still not really that important. And of course if you actually happen to be an Amerindian, then the implication is that America is not your ancestors' country, at least not until it took in or subjugated your ancestors.

So from a progressive humanitarian standpoint, you could legitimately want to see and emphasize Amerindians' connections to America, so that they would be welcomed, have a sense of belonging, have a sense that the country and land belongs to them as well, and not just in a subjugated sense. Considering the self-governing nature of Amerindian reservations and tribes whose history precedes Columbus, I get the sense that this could even be framed as a chicken vs. egg debate. In terms of geographic human society, the peoples that lived in what we call "America" today preceded the arrival of Columbus. That is, they made up the collection of people living here, even though they didn't specifically designate the land along those borders. Then later the government that we call the US took over that land, but the Amerindians didn't stop living in US territory per se. The top government changed from an Amerindian one to the US one that ruled over the Amerindians, but the Amerindian people were still in the territory that we call America like they were before.

So this topic looks like it can be legitimately argued different ways depending on one's framework, biases, etc.

What do you think?
 
Joined Jun 2017
3,990 Posts | 940+
NYC
The Empire State building is an impressive industrial achievement, built in 1930-1931, that tourists can see. I guess you are using sarcasm.
800px-Empire_State_Building_%28aerial_view%29.jpg


empire-state-building-daredevil-workers%2B%25281%2529.jpg


My hands start to sweat looking at the construction photos.

1200x0.jpg


images


images

CEf7RTuWIAAiXSj.jpg



The Empire State Building was built over the Waldorf Astoria. I see the building of the Empire State Building as a tragedy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky
Joined Jun 2022
3,748 Posts | 1,350+
Norway
Ah few thoughts on the latest posts:



- The concept of activt non-american, is, i belive, only present in the US. I could never act «non-Norwegian,» i couldnt loose my «Norwegianesness,» no matter what I do.

- and i m fine with that. I will allways be Norwegian, no matter where i go or what i do. I wouldnt feel that offensive in the slightest, beacuause, thats how it works in old world

- American isnt an etnicity,
 
  • Like
Reactions: rakovsky
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
Thanks for your input on this, @robto . I am glad to hear about your positive life experiences in Portugal and the country's major anti-racist trend in its history. It's nice for me to talk with you about this.
Claiming that Portugal has a very anti-racist attitude regarding its history is quite a bold statement to make. Just because they didn't adopt an ethnonationalist narrative towards its history, doesn't mean that the national historical discourse follows an anti-racist trend.
Racism is a multifaceted phenomenon. Racism can very well operate and be nurtured outside the debate over national identity.

What do you think?
I don't know. I only know that Americans in general take their national narrative through Eurocentric lenses, for the most part.
 

Trending History Discussions

Top