ATLANTIS: TEN TRIBES OF THE AMERICAS, Was Florida the Great Plain of Atlantis?

Joined Feb 2012
694 Posts | 20+
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When I tried the link when you first posted it, it didn't work either. The website was probably down for maintenance.

yup. i believe you completely after reading the rest of your post.

You also do know that Schliemann started his digs based on descriptions from the Iliad? He based himself on existing landmarks, that were described in the Iliad, and compared them to still existing landmarks near Hissarlik.

he found the temple of apollo? and the greek camp? a ....? where the mounds burial mounds? what landmarks did he find? do you mean rivers? he found a small city in a location where you would expect a city because you could build one there.

actually i must say the geography in turkey matches the region of iacuri minus the temple of apollo, the greek camp and the ..... etc. of course. everything is HUGE at iarcuri, just like homer says it should be.


You always talk about this place, but you don't name it. Probably because you just invented it.

noone saw iarcuri? i thought 1800hectares would catch attention but this might be the wrong crowd. its pretty famous in archaeology circles right now.


Just because you think he's wrong, doesn't make him wrong. As far as I can see, he has a sound theory, with lots of factual evidence to back it up.
Whereas you are trying to ridiculise him, but without any factual evidence for your fairytales.

what evidence do you have for your fairytales? you have a city of the wrong age, wrong size, on the wrong body of water, thats never seen a greek war and doesn't have 1 of the famous structures that would make it troy. the people that lived there came from the middle danube. thats what students at dartmouth learn. its a shame that a generation of students from that fine institution are going into the world having learned the wrong stuff. you could set them straight.

Yes, no matter the fact that the guy actually has a degree. He's not a professional historian because he writes for Fortean Times. Or because you don't agree with his views?

i'm really not sure what you are trying to say here but i think you are saying
writing for a paranormal magazine is ok for a serious scholar because you agree with what he says? i don't care what he says. can you name other serious and respected scholars who write for paranormal magazines?
 
Joined Oct 2011
40,550 Posts | 7,631+
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I see that the main sustain for the existence of Atlantis is that Plato reported its tale. Other "lost lands" have been reported in the works of other authors, but their lack of "philosophical authority" have condemned those lands to be forgotten.

Moreover, in many case [like the "ghost isles" which have been present on maps for centuries] those lands would have existed too late [too near in time, to express better the concept] to leave room for a plausible hypothesis about their disappearance and if we talk about an isle which was on the maps of XVI century, it's difficult to sustain that a possible civilization on it didn't leave traces of its existence.

But Atlantis is

* remembered by Plato
* said to be recorded in ancient Egyptian knowledge [engraved on the walls of a temple at Sais]
* so far in the past that direct historical traces are not possible to be expected
* in a period in which, what a coincidence, the world was for real facing a global catastrophe: the end of the glacial age

No way that with such a "profile" the myth of Atlantis is well strong and lasting.
 
Joined Mar 2012
2,758 Posts | 533+
if anyone here chooses to believe dartmouth and herr kolb over an art historian and paranormal writer then this should interest you...
Doing battle for Troy over Homer's ghosts




i think you pointed me to wiki as proof troy existed did you not? anyhow he's an art historian. that has what to do with troy exactly? sounds likes he's a chumpo you thought would make you sound good until you read wiki.



micheal the tv historian is known for his scholarship on what topic?? i think he got the aryan thing wrong. looks bad for troy too.



irrevelent? you stand up an art historian, a hack tv historian and a quack that writes for a paranormal magazine and they are straw men and irrevelent. i think your knowledge on the topic is clearly that.




i just copied and pasted your last scholars bio from u delaware. seems he's a computer repairman which is as applicable as most of your other sources.
Thanks for posting the article.

Very sobering. A reminder that we have to be careful not to put expectations ahead of evidence.
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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I am just jumping in, so sorry if I repeat something.
There are several curious points in the Atlantis myth. First, Atlantis shall have exist already 1000 years before the foundation of Athens. Athens itself shall have existed already 9000 year before Solon. Egypt is said to be 1000 years younger than Athens.
These story was told to Solon by a priest from the temple of neith in sais.
Platon has this story from Kritias as it seems. Kritias lived between 460 and 400. Platon was born around 430. He probably wrote his Kritias in the 350th. So what did Platon really know? Kritias itself shall have heard the story from his grandfather, who got the story from his father dropides, who shall have been Archon in 593/2. Solon shall have lived between 640 and 560. So Dropides was nearly as old as Solon. that makes 180 years between the birth of kritias and his great-grandfather. That's a too great difference to be true. It can only match if Solon lived at a later date, which some scientists suppose.
So let us take a year 590 BC (the suppose year of Solon's visit in Egypt) for the story Platon is telling us. As I wrote above, the story was told by a priest of neith in Sais. This town is settled since 4000 BC, but a temple is just know in the Middle Kingdom (after 2100 BC). It was the temple of Nb.T SW, which is perhaps identical with Neith (Nj.T). She is known already in the 1st dynasty around 3000 BC, but she got more prestige in the new Kingdom since 1550 BC.

We have now the problem, that Platon write, that Egypt existed already 8000 years before Solon and Athens 1000 years before Egypt and that Atlantis even 1000 years more.
So Atlantis evolved around 10600 BC, during the Dryas, a time when the Tundras returned, a stadial. Shall we really expect a great empire, that had conquered nearly the whole mediterranian Sea? If we follow Platon, Athens existed since 9600 BC. As far as we know today are there neolithic artefacts already from 7500 BC, a city, especially one which could defeat a great power like Atlantis existed not before the mycenian era. Egypt, one of the oldest cultures is as well not 8600 years old. It goes back to 4000 BC, but as i said, the old kingdom doesn't start before 2700 and even the 1st dynasty is not older than 3000 BC.

So we see, before we search for Atlantis, we should solve all this problems. One solution would be to change the 8000-10,000 years for lunar month, which would give us a time between the 14th and 13th century. If we date Solon later, the 12th century.

This would bring us to the sea people era. If we remember Thera, the end of the mycenian and minoan era, then in Platon's story about Atlantis (or in those of the priests of Sais) it is possible, that several incidents melted together in a single story, like we have it in the Artus-legend or those of the Nibelungs. Florida is of course not Atlantis. There may have been a civilisation, but not Atlantis.
 
Joined Dec 2010
5,581 Posts | 721+
Pillium
best overall treatment of what? of no war? of no temple of apollo? of no greek camp or any greeks? of no war .....? of no okeanos? best treatment of absolutely nothing? wait till he sees there is someplace with everything.

three millenia of coastal erosion and sedimentation is more than enough to erase earthworks and temples. There is also ample evidence of war at Hissarlik, to suggest otherwise is idiotic.

As to your place with everything, if you mean Cornesti Iarcuri (look! Capitals!) then you are proven wrong by your own reasoning. The walls at Iarcuri are earth and timber, not stone. It is nowhere near the sea (unless you count the 'there used to be an inland sea here but it dried up' theory). It is in Romania, which would need to be reached via the Black Sea. Given Homers familiarity with this body of water you would think he might have mentioned that. There is also no evidence of the temples and siege works whose presence you demand for proof.

So we have:

Hissarlik - Where Homer and successive ancient writers said troy was, close to the sea, tall stone walls, rivers and springs in the approximate places.

Iarcuri - Very, very far away from where it is described as being located, no stone walls, not near the sea, rivers etc only vaguely proximal.

Homer has exagerated the size but that's what storytellers do. To claim Iarcuri as Troy is wishful thinking.

wrong on aryans and troy. hopefully he got the story of england right.

Once again, what has the Aryan invasion theory got to do with this? Repeating the same fallacious argument over and over makes you look like you just dont read or understand anyone else's posts.

Only wrong on Troy in your opinion and you have still to provide anything approaching evidence to back it up. He was spot on about England too, as he should be, being a professional (which neither of us are).

he's paid to write for it so he's a Professional Paranormal Writer even. if a man was getting paid to post on a history forum, i would call him a professional historian and if the forum was credible, he would actually be an expert.

Excellent, by your reasoning I can consider myself a journalist, diplomatic and trade envoy, marksman, professional entertainer, farmer, carpenter, therapist, nurse, architect and author. I really should get around to updating my CV!

Professor Baldwin's main occupation is teaching and writing classics and history to an academic audience. Belittling his achievements by focusing on his other interests (which still involve writing about history) makes you look petty, please stop as it is becoming tiresome.


it was right there where i called troy a tiny little thing. beside "1800hectares".

Couldn't bring yourself to give the post number, I see. Or was the prospect of re reading you own posts to find it too much for you? Seriously, you need to up your game a little and stop endlessly repeating the same tired old irrelevant data. And if you have neither the ability or the courtesy to use capitals and punctuation then perhaps you should spare us your ideas too.
 
Joined Dec 2010
5,581 Posts | 721+
Pillium
i'm really not sure what you are trying to say here but i think you are saying
writing for a paranormal magazine is ok for a serious scholar because you agree with what he says? i don't care what he says. can you name other serious and respected scholars who write for paranormal magazines?

Why don't you tell us what you think a 'paranormal magazine' is? because your ignorant and dismissive attitude suggests little knowledge of FT. BTW, this is from the Wiki page: "Most of the articles in Fortean Times are written in the style of objective journalism." I'm sure you will nit pick some irrelevant criticism of this but thats fine, I am coming to expect that from your posts.

contributors to FT include, Loren Coleman, Karl Shuker, (cryptozoology, zoology) Paul Deveraux, (archaeology, archaeoacoustics) with regular contributions from academics who fancy writing on the fringes of their chosen discipline.

Now, instead of trying to advance your favoured theory by endlessly and erroneously criticising one of the many sources I have provided, why don't you provide some links and sources yourself.
 
Joined Dec 2011
2,465 Posts | 3+
Since when do hunter-gatherers count as a civilization?
Hunter-Gatherers do not count as a "civilization." More as a lifestyle. Hunter-Gatherers did not build a large complex of numerous lithic buildings (and maintain them) that covers 25 hectares with a stoneworking sophistication that rivals anything found in early Egypt or Sumer. Gobekli Tepe is being labeled as HG, because the archeologists exploring this site have not yet found evidence of any "permanent" domeciles. However, it so far appears only the what are being referred to as "temples" were purposely buried. Whatever was used for permanent domeciles has long been erased by erosion over 12,000 years. However, much still remains to be uncovered (about 90%) from this very large 12,000 year old site with the potential for many surprises. This designation of Hunter-Gatherers is only being applied because so little is known about these people and this particular era in history. There is a 6,000 year gap in recorded history to these times. Logic suggests that the term HG is a misnomer as Gobekli Tepe is clearly an example of a civilization. However, the details of this civilization are only now being collated. Civilization has always been associated with permanent in situ structures that constitute communities. Gobekli Tepe is clearly such. And a very large community at that.

Indeed. However the most probable linkage can be found in that many cultures settle near water.
No doubt that proximity near water would leave an indelible memory on any survivors, especially if struck by a 2 mile high Tsunami (or any unusual major tsunami for that matter). More and more evidence is coming to light that some major water born event occurred 12,000 years ago. Evidence discovered in both the Pacific and Atlantic is starting to give credence to this possibility. What baffles Archeology and Science is what could have potentially caused such a collosal global catastrophe. The sinking of a large land mass suddenly into the ocean offers at least one credible explanation. The explosion of a unlocated super-volcano could be another. A meteor or asteroid strike even further possibilities. Evidence has yet to be discovered to indicate which causality actually occurred. What gives the legend of Atlantis more credibility is that its' demise is reported by Plato to have occurred at this same approximate time of 12,000 years ago. The discoveries at Gobekli Tepe give tangible proof to advanced architectonics having existed 12,000 years ago as well. The accidental discovery of such a sophisticated (previously unknown) culture gives further credence to the possibility of Atlantis also having existed. Whether all this is connected remains to be established. However, so many new discoveries have come to light in the last 5 years of so many submerged cities that it is only a matter of time before the entire picture of what actually occurred 12,000 years ago comes to light. The next ten years of archeologic research will be most illuminating. The proof of Atlantis may never be fully realized, but the implications are already coming into place.
 
Joined Aug 2009
21,072 Posts | 10+
Minnesnowta
Zarin said:
Hunter-Gatherers do not count as a "civilization." More as a lifestyle. Hunter-Gatherers did not build a large complex of numerous lithic buildings (and maintain them) that covers 25 hectares with a stoneworking sophistication that rivals anything found in early Egypt or Sumer.

How do we know this? They could have been much more sophisticated than we typically presume.

Zarin said:
Gobekli Tepe is being labeled as HG, because the archeologists exploring this site have not yet found evidence of any "permanent" domeciles.

It's also due to what type of foodstuff they have found in the site. There is no evidence of permanent settlement and no evidence of agriculture. However, while permanent settlement and agriculture are prerequisites for civilization, they do not define civilization.

Zarin said:
However, it so far appears only the what are being referred to as "temples" were purposely buried. Whatever was used for permanent domeciles has long been erased by erosion over 12,000 years. However, much still remains to be uncovered (about 90%) from this very large 12,000 year old site with the potential for many surprises. This designation of Hunter-Gatherers is only being applied because so little is known about these people and this particular era in history.

This is only my own speculation, but I think it may be probable that a following Neolithic agricultural religion superseded the Gobekli religion. Intentional burying suggest to me a changing of the guards so to speak. Covering up their "magic" without desecrating it's cultural importance.

Zarin said:
Logic suggests that the term HG is a misnomer as Gobekli Tepe is clearly an example of a civilization. However, the details of this civilization are only now being collated. Civilization has always been associated with permanent in situ structures that constitute communities. Gobekli Tepe is clearly such. And a very large community at that.

I think it is more likely that the Gobekli complex represents a shared religion of many HG bands. Icons from Gobekli have been found dispersed throughout the area, rather than concentrated in one area, which is consistent with people who lived in temporary or semi-permanent dwellings.

It could be that Gobekli was maintained and operated by a priestly class that were sustained by many disparate bands.

Zarin said:
No doubt that proximity near water would leave an indelible memory on any survivors, especially if struck by a 2 mile high Tsunami (or any unusual major tsunami for that matter). More and more evidence is coming to light that some major water born event occurred 12,000 years ago. Evidence discovered in both the Pacific and Atlantic is starting to give credence to this possibility. What baffles Archeology and Science is what could have potentially caused such a collosal global catastrophe. The sinking of a large land mass suddenly into the ocean offers at least one credible explanation. The explosion of a unlocated super-volcano could be another. A meteor or asteroid strike even further possibilities. Evidence has yet to be discovered to indicate which causality actually occurred. What gives the legend of Atlantis more credibility is that its' demise is reported by Plato to have occurred at this same approximate time of 12,000 years ago. The discoveries at Gobekli Tepe give tangible proof to advanced architectonics having existed 12,000 years ago as well. The accidental discovery of such a sophisticated (previously unknown) culture gives further credence to the possibility of Atlantis also having existed. Whether all this is connected remains to be established. However, so many new discoveries have come to light in the last 5 years of so many submerged cities that it is only a matter of time before the entire picture of what actually occurred 12,000 years ago comes to light. The next ten years of archeologic research will be most illuminating. The proof of Atlantis may never be fully realized, but the implications are already coming into place.

The problem I have with Plato's tale is why are we to presume that Plato had accurate details of an event that occurred 9,000 years before his time anymore than you or I have accurate details of what happened 9,000 years ago?

If Atlantis does have roots in real events, the story would have been transmitted orally for thousands of years. People would naturally be inserting aspects of their own culture into the tale over time. By the time the tale was being told by civilized man, he could be extrapolating civilization onto the people that the tale is based.

An analogy can be made with the Biblical tale of Adam and Eve. Early man had no idea that our ancestors lived as HG for uncounted thousands of years, with the exception of Eden being a distant cultural memory of HG lifestyle. So in the story, the "very first man on earth" is a farmer.
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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As i wrote above, the greeks didn't know when Solon lived exactly. Platon had 180 years between Kritias and his great-grandfather, the companion of Solon. The greeks didn't know about Lykurgus and of course had just myth about Troy. The reason is simple, even when writing was evolved, th most history was oral. The oldest hieroglyphs are 5,500 years old, so date back to 3,500 BC, not till 10,600 BC. If Atlantis existed, we would need 7,100 years of oral tradition. So Romans and Greeks and any other nation fail to pass on oral history for a few hundred yars, but the Egyptians could? I doubt this!
 
Joined Aug 2009
21,072 Posts | 10+
Minnesnowta
As i wrote above, the greeks didn't know when Solon lived exactly. Platon had 180 years between Kritias and his great-grandfather, the companion of Solon. The greeks didn't know about Lykurgus and of course had just myth about Troy. The reason is simple, even when writing was evolved, th most history was oral. The oldest hieroglyphs are 5,500 years old, so date back to 3,500 BC, not till 10,600 BC. If Atlantis existed, we would need 7,100 years of oral tradition. So Romans and Greeks and any other nation fail to pass on oral history for a few hundred yars, but the Egyptians could? I doubt this!

Well Australian aboriginal myths show that knowledge can be transmitted orally for thousands of years.

Since then, Dixon has assembled a number of similar examples of Australian Aboriginal myths that accurately describe landscapes of an ancient past. He particularly noted the numerous myths telling of previous sea levels, including:[10]

the Port Phillip myth (recorded as told to Robert Russell in 1850), describing Port Phillip Bay as once dry land, and the course of the Yarra River being once different, following what was then Carrum Carrum swamp. This was an oral history that accurately described a landscape from 10 000 years ago.

the Great Barrier Reef coastline myth (told to Dixon) in Yarrabah, just south of Cairns, telling of a past coastline (since flooded) which stood at the edge of the current Great Barrier Reef, and naming places now completely submerged after the forest types and trees that once grew there. This was an oral record that was accurate for the landscape 10 000 years ago.

the Lake Eyre myths (recorded by J. W. Gregory in 1906), telling of the deserts of Central Australia as once having been fertile, well-watered plains, and the deserts around present Lake Eyre having been one continuous garden. This oral story matches geologists' understanding that there was a wet phase to the early Holocene when the lake would have had permanent water.

Source: [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_mythology]Australian Aboriginal mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]



Of course that doesn't mean 100% literal history. Australia may also be somewhat unique as they maintained relative cultural hegemony (compared to other regions in the world) throughout that time.
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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Well Australian aboriginal myths show that knowledge can be transmitted orally for thousands of years.



Source: Australian Aboriginal mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Of course that doesn't mean 100% literal history. Australia may also be somewhat unique as they maintained relative cultural hegemony (compared to other regions in the world) throughout that time.
Yes, that's some kind of "flood myth". Of course it is impressing, that the Australians were aware of that changings, but they couldn't date it. And I am sure, that they knew no single name of the people at those days far back in time. I agree with others, that the Atlantis myth can have a historical base, but what and when? A lot of the Atlantis myth is already proven wrong, as i wrote above.
 
Joined Aug 2009
21,072 Posts | 10+
Minnesnowta
Yes, that's some kind of "flood myth". Of course it is impressing, that the Australians were aware of that changings, but they couldn't date it. And I am sure, that they knew no single name of the people at those days far back in time. I agree with others, that the Atlantis myth can have a historical base, but what and when? A lot of the Atlantis myth is already proven wrong, as i wrote above.

Yes, agreed.
 
Joined Dec 2011
2,465 Posts | 3+
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As i wrote above, the greeks didn't know when Solon lived exactly. Platon had 180 years between Kritias and his great-grandfather, the companion of Solon. The greeks didn't know about Lykurgus and of course had just myth about Troy. The reason is simple, even when writing was evolved, th most history was oral. The oldest hieroglyphs are 5,500 years old, so date back to 3,500 BC, not till 10,600 BC. If Atlantis existed, we would need 7,100 years of oral tradition. So Romans and Greeks and any other nation fail to pass on oral history for a few hundred yars, but the Egyptians could? I doubt this!
There is no doubt that "oral" tradition is dubious as to its' extended conveyance of complete accuracy. However, even writing has this same problem. It is called editing, misinterpretation and or paraphrasing. And I will also concede that Plato may have added his own regional mythos to the stories handed down by the Egyptians. This could very well account for any disagreement between Plato's account and the history of Athens. Moreover, the story that the Egyptians did offer to Solon may have been altered in the retelling. I don't take Plato 100% literally, but do take into consideration Plato's personal credibility as not only a great philosopher but as a reporter of "facts." At least facts as he discerned them to be. One has to ultimately ask the question: What portion of Plato's reporting in the Critias and Timaeus on Atlantis is credible? And on what basis?
Location, description and the dating of an event is key to the truth of any mythos. And although these elements may be distorted in the conveyance of any mythological tale, Plato would have collated not only the information that came from his Egyptian sources; but also any other material on the subject (or related to it) that Plato may have also had access to. The Greek world of Plato's time had numerous mythos related to the Moroccan area to include an actual "Atlantean" people residing there. Not to mention many other very ancient tales brought on by sailors and traders. We simply do not know how Plato arrived at all of his information and speculation is the best that may be offered. But one thing is for sure, Plato was very aware of much of the knowledge available in his time. There may have many been other sources for the Atlantis story, existing in Plato's time; that have not come down to modern perusal. Or at least related stories that supported the Egyptian tale of Atlantis according to Plato's sense of logic. The discovery of advanced Anatolian architectural communities around the time of Atlantis' existence and the apparent indications of major changes occurring 12,000 years ago do give some credence to Plato's story. However, the truth will be in discovery of the actuality of the details.
However, the real core of the Atlantis tale does not lie with Plato but with his reputedly original source...the Egyptian priests of Sais. It is here that the credulity of the mythos of Atlantis truly lies. It is well known that the Egyptians recorded events ad infinitum. And yes this particular event may have once had an original oral conveyance or did it? No one has ever considered the possibility that Atlantis had developed a system of writing and that the Egyptian and Sumerian systems may be indirectly related to it. However, to the Atlanteans writing may have been a secret and exclusive knowledge that was not universally shared. For many reasons. However, any people who came in contact with the Atlanteans would have become aware of this process and eventually attempted to at least imitate it. The idea that knowledge could be permanently recorded would have been intrinsically desirable to any people.
The Egyptians enscribed on papyrus and stone while the Sumerians made their common impressions on moist clay and then fired it for permanence. Although it isn't readily apparent, there are some similarities to the rapidly written form of Egyptian hieretic and those Sumerian wedge impressions. Both were developed for rapid recording, while more formalized writing was used on major monuments. It was all based on using symbolic images to represent sounds. Which all writing represents. The developement of any language is based on the conveyance of sounds to transfer information.
So it is more likely that any reliable proof of the Atlantis story lies somewhere within the recordings of Egypt and possibly even Sumeria. Could this proof be enscribed in the dark recesses of a lost Egyptian temple? Or right out in front of our eyes but completely ignored or improperly interpreted? Or far worse, being purposely supressed because of its' very controversial nature? The discoveries at Gobekli Tepe are important as they are contemporaneous with Plato's timeline for Atlantis and may be connected to its' influence. Only 10% of Gobekli Tepe has been uncovered and further surprises may well be waiting to be uncovered there. Several foci may offer indirect indications for proof of Atlantis...Egypt, Morocco, Sumeria and now more importantly Gobekli Tepe. There is the possibility that Atlantis, itself, may eventually be discovered, which I seriously doubt. However, a "colony" or post Deluge settlement is not out of reasonable possibility. As the discovery of Troy did for Homer's credibility, the proof of Atlantis will add real credulity to what actually happened 12,000 years ago and raise the historical credibility of Plato as well.
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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There is no doubt that "oral" tradition is dubious as to its' extended conveyance of complete accuracy. However, even writing has this same problem. It is called editing, misinterpretation and or paraphrasing. And I will also concede that Plato may have added his own regional mythos to the stories handed down by the Egyptians. This could very well account for any disagreement between Plato's account and the history of Athens. Moreover, the story that the Egyptians did offer to Solon may have been altered in the retelling. I don't take Plato 100% literally, but do take into consideration Plato's personal credibility as not only a great philosopher but as a reporter of "facts." At least facts as he discerned them to be. One has to ultimately ask the question: What portion of Plato's reporting in the Critias and Timaeus on Atlantis is credible? And on what basis?
Written sources have their problems,too, but different. Oral history is much more distorted, sometimes it completely changes the results of incidents, mixes participants etc.
It's hard to say how credible plato is. I don't insinuate he lied, but he can have added parts to the myth, to make it more exciting, so that it is more literature than science. We don't know this. But of course it is not Plato's story, but those of kritias' grandfather's father's companion, who was told by a priest about it. So it is not only hear-saying, it is hear-saying of the hear-saying of somebodies hear-saying.

Location, description and the dating of an event is key to the truth of any mythos. And although these elements may be distorted in the conveyance of any mythological tale, Plato would have collated not only the information that came from his Egyptian sources; but also any other material on the subject (or related to it) that Plato may have also had access to. The Greek world of Plato's time had numerous mythos related to the Moroccan area to include an actual "Atlantean" people residing there. Not to mention many other very ancient tales brought on by sailors and traders. We simply do not know how Plato arrived at all of his information and speculation is the best that may be offered. But one thing is for sure, Plato was very aware of much of the knowledge available in his time. There may have many been other sources for the Atlantis story, existing in Plato's time; that have not come down to modern perusal. Or at least related stories that supported the Egyptian tale of Atlantis according to Plato's sense of logic. The discovery of advanced Anatolian architectural communities around the time of Atlantis' existence and the apparent indications of major changes occurring 12,000 years ago do give some credence to Plato's story.
Where are other Atlantis-myths in the greek writings? Hesiod, Homer, nobody has it. According to the myth, the Athenians defeated a huge empire - and nothing was known about these victory in Athens and in the whole greece?
And again back to the Egyptian sources, the myth must have been told for several thousand years, because the Egyptians had no hieroglyphs. And the priest of Sais and the goddess neith could have write it down many hundreds of years later, because a temple of neith, which could contain documents existed first during the New kingdom.
So if the myth is true at all, then the only truth of the story is, that there was an reign, which was destroyed by a catastrophy (human or natural).


However, the truth will be in discovery of the actuality of the details.
However, the real core of the Atlantis tale does not lie with Plato but with his reputedly original source...the Egyptian priests of Sais. It is here that the credulity of the mythos of Atlantis truly lies. It is well known that the Egyptians recorded events ad infinitum. And yes this particular event may have once had an original oral conveyance or did it? No one has ever considered the possibility that Atlantis had developed a system of writing and that the Egyptian and Sumerian systems may be indirectly related to it. However, to the Atlanteans writing may have been a secret and exclusive knowledge that was not universally shared. For many reasons. However, any people who came in contact with the Atlanteans would have become aware of this process and eventually attempted to at least imitate it. The idea that knowledge could be permanently recorded would have been intrinsically desirable to any people.
As I said above, there are no records older than 3500 BC and allthough the Egyptians wrote down a lot, the first dynasties themselves are quite uncertain.
Let us suppose Atlantis had a writing, secret or not. How could the Egyptians of sais read these sources and how did these sources come to them. The late egyptians couldn't understand the hieroglyphs, but the Atlantis writings were readable? And why do we have no single finding of it, if they had conquered the most parts of the mediterranian?

The Egyptians enscribed on papyrus and stone while the Sumerians made their common impressions on moist clay and then fired it for permanence. Although it isn't readily apparent, there are some similarities to the rapidly written form of Egyptian hieretic and those Sumerian wedge impressions. Both were developed for rapid recording, while more formalized writing was used on major monuments. It was all based on using symbolic images to represent sounds. Which all writing represents. The developement of any language is based on the conveyance of sounds to transfer information.
So it is more likely that any reliable proof of the Atlantis story lies somewhere within the recordings of Egypt and possibly even Sumeria. Could this proof be enscribed in the dark recesses of a lost Egyptian temple? Or right out in front of our eyes but completely ignored or improperly interpreted? Or far worse, being purposely supressed because of its' very controversial nature? The discoveries at Gobekli Tepe are important as they are contemporaneous with Plato's timeline for Atlantis and may be connected to its' influence. Only 10% of Gobekli Tepe has been uncovered and further surprises may well be waiting to be uncovered there. Several foci may offer indirect indications for proof of Atlantis...Egypt, Morocco, Sumeria and now more importantly Gobekli Tepe. There is the possibility that Atlantis, itself, may eventually be discovered, which I seriously doubt. However, a "colony" or post Deluge settlement is not out of reasonable possibility. As the discovery of Troy did for Homer's credibility, the proof of Atlantis will add real credulity to what actually happened 12,000 years ago and raise the historical credibility of Plato as well.
A lot of speculation to save what is saveable. But there is not much to verify the existence of Atlantis. As I wrote before, the Egyptians mainly used the moon calendar, especially in the old times. Tht lets me suppose, of course speculation as well, that the years are months. This would lead us to the sea people storm, the end of the mycenian culture, it is not far away from Thera-eruption. All this could be part of the atlantis myth. Perhaps there were as well connections with kingdoms outside the mediterranian sea, which were destroyed. We don't know. But such ideas are better than a high civilisation in the Dryas.
 
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Where are other Atlantis-myths in the greek writings? Hesiod, Homer, nobody has it. According to the myth, the Athenians defeated a huge empire - and nothing was known about these victory in Athens and in the whole greece?
This was explained in Timaeus and Critias as a gap between the people who lived in Plato's time and the people who lived at the time of Atlantis. Apparently these were a different people, but one from which the Egyptians implied the Athenians of Plato's time were descended. Archeology is well aware of the several migrations of different peoples into the Ionian area over the last 6,000 years, but there is a large gap in time between 6,000 years ago and 12,000 tears ago in the archeological record. However, Plato may not have been aware of these ancient Athenians except that information which he acquired from the Egyptian mythos. The discoveries at Gobekli Tepe are starting to fill in this huge 6,000 year old gap, but only in the area of Anatolia. However, Gobekli Tepe is not that far from Greece. The fact that Gobekli Tepe existed and was unknown to history shows how little we do know about our human past.
And again back to the Egyptian sources, the myth must have been told for several thousand years, because the Egyptians had no hieroglyphs. And the priest of Sais and the goddess neith could have write it down many hundreds of years later, because a temple of neith, which could contain documents existed first during the New kingdom.
Unfortunately for archeology, the evolution of Egyptian hieroglyphics is actually unknown, Nor is archeology fully aware of how long hieroglyphics actually existed or where it originally was begun and when. The only real indications of writing from this period of 3500 BCE is stone carving. However, the Egyptians invented the creation of paper (papyrus) and paper does not remain stable over an extended period of time. The best guess as to when paper was actually first created is just that...a guess. There most likely would have been precursor writing on animal hide surfaces in some form of ink or paint, but this too has limits to its' longevity. There may have been far older written inscriptions on easy to carve into sandstone, but even wind weathering came severely limit its longevity. So the Egyptian writing system can only be dated by what has so far been discovered. The bas-relief carvings at Gobekli Tepe show that at least scultural pictorialization in hard stone existed at the time of Atlantis. Scuptural pictorialization of images may have been the first attempt (so far discovered) to put sounds permanently onto stone. Which means other forms of sound recording may have existed long before bas-relief sculpture. The cave paintings indicate that pictorialization of images goes back to at least 40,000 years. The recording of any image for posterity is a form of writing albeit it is very elementary. We therefore now know that the Gobekli Tepans and probably others of this time period were just as capable of sculptural images as were the Egyptians 6,000 years later. Plus there is no real significant difference in the quality of this possibly precursor writing either. The biggest problem in tracing the developement of writing is to find the original sources. Logically most writing (especially its' evolution) was done on easy to carry or store organic materials which have a severely limited timespan. One particular developement, although seemingly crude, is the Iroquian wampum belt. This was used to convey messages and consisted of small different colored beads sewn onto leather. Those Iroquian symbols can be classified as a written language as the symbology was universal and was used to convey information. Moreover, just because examples of early writing (as archeology would define it) no longer exist, does not disprove the logic of it having existed. And for a far greater length of time. Gobekli Tepe, at the very least, indicates the beginnings of formalized attempts to record information on a grand scale and also a very public one. And this occurred contemporaneously near the timeline Plato gives for Atlantis.
So if the myth is true at all, then the only truth of the story is, that there was an reign, which was destroyed by a catastrophy (human or natural).
So let us start with this premise. An advanced civilization existed 12,000 years ago and was destroyed by a yet unknown causality. Gobekli Tepe actually fits this descrition. Gobekli Tepe (which existed over hundreds of years in several subsequent layers) was purposely buried under sand and we do not know why. And it was completely unknown in any written or oral form 20 years ago. Anyone who had suggested that an advanced civilization existed 12,000 years ago and was completely lost to human record would have been labeled a lunatic. As I and others who believe in the actual existence of Atlantis have been repeatedly insinuated. Yet, Gobekli Tepe is now a fact. Gobekli Tepe has no mythos whatsoever surrounding its existence. No reference by any ancient highly revered Greek philosopher. So if Gobekli Tepe can exist, why not Atlantis? At least the mythos of Atlantis has been handed down to posterity. Which implies an even more indelible and durable historical impression for it having even been remembered. If a completely unknown civilization can be discovered, why not one that does have historical reference.

As I said above, there are no records older than 3500 BC and allthough the Egyptians wrote down a lot, the first dynasties themselves are quite uncertain.
Let us suppose Atlantis had a writing, secret or not. How could the Egyptians of sais read these sources and how did these sources come to them. The late egyptians couldn't understand the hieroglyphs, but the Atlantis writings were readable? And why do we have no single finding of it, if they had conquered the most parts of the mediterranian?
No records that survive. However, we now know, due to Gobekli Tepe, that permanent high quality images were being carved in stone 12,000 years ago. No one would have believed this 20 years ago. And thanks to the cave paintings, we know that humans were recording images 40,000 years ago, we thus know that pictorialization began quite far back in time. Pictorialization on cave walls also implies the same on other potential surfaces. Most likely on animal skins as well. However, proof of this is not possible due to organic decomposure.
A lot of speculation to save what is saveable. But there is not much to verify the existence of Atlantis.
Actually there are far more connections to Atlantis than you think. Gobekli Tepe was nowhere mentioned in history, but Atlantis has references all over the place. Check out the many references to an Atlantean people (by this actual name), from Greek sources; who supposedly lived near the Atlas mountains in Morocco. There are also many other references to this area in Greek mythology. Even the Garden of Hesperides was located there. Why was this so? Just another suspicious mythology? Only mere coincidences? Moreover, a strange three ringed structure called the Richat in Mauritania bears a striking resemblance to what Plato referred to as the singular aspect of the three rings of Atlantis. At best this Richat structure proves that such a structure could have come into existence elsewhere, if it is not the very source for the three ringed legend. Plus, the Map of Herodotus, if authentic, gives credence to the Greeks (or at least one) having known the Atlantic Ocean by that name 50 years before Plato was born. Moreover, there are many myths around the world of an ancient advanced culture eventually totally destroyed. The Bible is a written source of such a mythos and the main source for the Deluge. Even the Aztecs make reference to their original homeland as a place in the Atlantic Ocean called Aztlan. Just a coincidence not only where it was located but in the very sound of its' name?
As I wrote before, the Egyptians mainly used the moon calendar, especially in the old times. Tht lets me suppose, of course speculation as well, that the years are months. This would lead us to the sea people storm, the end of the mycenian culture, it is not far away from Thera-eruption. All this could be part of the atlantis myth. Perhaps there were as well connections with kingdoms outside the mediterranian sea, which were destroyed. We don't know. But such ideas are better than a high civilisation in the Dryas.
Since we do not have the original story as told to Solon in any form other than what was recorded by Plato, we have to assume that Plato got it right in both timing of the story and the information he put together. Information, most likely, based on many other sources of information. Which puts this information's credibility totally linked to Plato's. Plato was a rationalist and more than likely did a lot of information checking before this story was actually written down. He did not make notes however. So we have no way of knowing where all of his sources of information originated. However, never under-estimate how much knowledge was available 2400 years ago. Much of it lost, when parts of the Great Library of Alexandria ( it was not a single structure) were destroyed (estimated as four potential events) over 900 years of its' existence.
 
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This was explained in Timaeus and Critias as a gap between the people who lived in Plato's time and the people who lived at the time of Atlantis. Apparently these were a different people, but one from which the Egyptians implied the Athenians of Plato's time were descended. Archeology is well aware of the several migrations of different peoples into the Ionian area over the last 6,000 years, but there is a large gap in time between 6,000 years ago and 12,000 tears ago in the archeological record. However, Plato may not have been aware of these ancient Athenians except that information which he acquired from the Egyptian mythos. The discoveries at Gobekli Tepe are starting to fill in this huge 6,000 year old gap, but only in the area of Anatolia. However, Gobekli Tepe is not that far from Greece. The fact that Gobekli Tepe existed and was unknown to history shows how little we do know about our human past.
Egypt had relations with the greeks. there is a lot of reports. I would be surprised, if they could remember back to 11000 BC, but forgot the migration of the greek peoples to Greece. And we do not only need an Athens at 9000 BC, no, we need a powerful Athens. There is not a single evidence for this.

Unfortunately for archeology, the evolution of Egyptian hieroglyphics is actually unknown, Nor is archeology fully aware of how long hieroglyphics actually existed or where it originally was begun and when. The only real indications of writing from this period of 3500 BCE is stone carving. However, the Egyptians invented the creation of paper (papyrus) and paper does not remain stable over an extended period of time. The best guess as to when paper was actually first created is just that...a guess. There most likely would have been precursor writing on animal hide surfaces in some form of ink or paint, but this too has limits to its' longevity. There may have been far older written inscriptions on easy to carve into sandstone, but even wind weathering came severely limit its longevity. So the Egyptian writing system can only be dated by what has so far been discovered. The bas-relief carvings at Gobekli Tepe show that at least scultural pictorialization in hard stone existed at the time of Atlantis. Scuptural pictorialization of images may have been the first attempt (so far discovered) to put sounds permanently onto stone. Which means other forms of sound recording may have existed long before bas-relief sculpture. The cave paintings indicate that pictorialization of images goes back to at least 40,000 years. The recording of any image for posterity is a form of writing albeit it is very elementary. We therefore now know that the Gobekli Tepans and probably others of this time period were just as capable of sculptural images as were the Egyptians 6,000 years later. Plus there is no real significant difference in the quality of this possibly precursor writing either. The biggest problem in tracing the developement of writing is to find the original sources. Logically most writing (especially its' evolution) was done on easy to carry or store organic materials which have a severely limited timespan. One particular developement, although seemingly crude, is the Iroquian wampum belt. This was used to convey messages and consisted of small different colored beads sewn onto leather. Those Iroquian symbols can be classified as a written language as the symbology was universal and was used to convey information. Moreover, just because examples of early writing (as archeology would define it) no longer exist, does not disprove the logic of it having existed. And for a far greater length of time. Gobekli Tepe, at the very least, indicates the beginnings of formalized attempts to record information on a grand scale and also a very public one. And this occurred contemporaneously near the timeline Plato gives for Atlantis.
attempts to record informations? We need a completely recorded myth about Atlantis, not an attempt to record information or some images.

So let us start with this premise. An advanced civilization existed 12,000 years ago and was destroyed by a yet unknown causality. Gobekli Tepe actually fits this descrition. Gobekli Tepe (which existed over hundreds of years in several subsequent layers) was purposely buried under sand and we do not know why. And it was completely unknown in any written or oral form 20 years ago. Anyone who had suggested that an advanced civilization existed 12,000 years ago and was completely lost to human record would have been labeled a lunatic. As I and others who believe in the actual existence of Atlantis have been repeatedly insinuated. Yet, Gobekli Tepe is now a fact. Gobekli Tepe has no mythos whatsoever surrounding its existence. No reference by any ancient highly revered Greek philosopher. So if Gobekli Tepe can exist, why not Atlantis? At least the mythos of Atlantis has been handed down to posterity. Which implies an even more indelible and durable historical impression for it having even been remembered. If a completely unknown civilization can be discovered, why not one that does have historical reference.
What do you mean with advanced? If you have an "advanced" Atlantis, you need as well an advanced Egypt to record the story and an "advanced" athens to beat Alantis. and all these advanced cultures disappeared nearly completely, just with these myth left? Göbekli Tepe is a great archaeological site and "advanced" compared with other regions, but still neolithic.

No records that survive. However, we now know, due to Gobekli Tepe, that permanent high quality images were being carved in stone 12,000 years ago. No one would have believed this 20 years ago. And thanks to the cave paintings, we know that humans were recording images 40,000 years ago, we thus know that pictorialization began quite far back in time. Pictorialization on cave walls also implies the same on other potential surfaces. Most likely on animal skins as well. However, proof of this is not possible due to organic decomposure.
we have sculptures like the venus of willendorf, 25k years old
220px-Venus_von_Willendorf_01.jpg

and we have other findings, too. Nevertheless had we not mythically advanced cultures all over europe.

Actually there are far more connections to Atlantis than you think. Gobekli Tepe was nowhere mentioned in history, but Atlantis has references all over the place. Check out the many references to an Atlantean people (by this actual name), from Greek sources; who supposedly lived near the Atlas mountains in Morocco. There are also many other references to this area in Greek mythology. Even the Garden of Hesperides was located there. Why was this so? Just another suspicious mythology? Only mere coincidences? Moreover, a strange three ringed structure called the Richat in Mauritania bears a striking resemblance to what Plato referred to as the singular aspect of the three rings of Atlantis. At best this Richat structure proves that such a structure could have come into existence elsewhere, if it is not the very source for the three ringed legend. Plus, the Map of Herodotus, if authentic, gives credence to the Greeks (or at least one) having known the Atlantic Ocean by that name 50 years before Plato was born. Moreover, there are many myths around the world of an ancient advanced culture eventually totally destroyed. The Bible is a written source of such a mythos and the main source for the Deluge. Even the Aztecs make reference to their original homeland as a place in the Atlantic Ocean called Aztlan. Just a coincidence not only where it was located but in the very sound of its' name?
The mythological Atlas, the map Atlas, the mountain range, the continent Atlantis, the Atlantic ocean, an Aztec Aztlan. And? Do all have the same roots. We don't know what Atlantis means, if it is the original name of these people (if they existed) or egyptian or of any other origin. Atlas means "heaver". If Atlantis means "Isle without name", there is absolutely no connection with both. It is the same with the mountain range. The native name seems to be different. So it got its greek name by the myth of Atlas. This is the same with the ocean. And the map is even named by somebody else than the Greek Atlas. The aztec Aztlan means probably land of the white bird. But the aztec culture is not at all 12,000 years old.

Since we do not have the original story as told to Solon in any form other than what was recorded by Plato, we have to assume that Plato got it right in both timing of the story and the information he put together. Information, most likely, based on many other sources of information. Which puts this information's credibility totally linked to Plato's. Plato was a rationalist and more than likely did a lot of information checking before this story was actually written down. He did not make notes however. So we have no way of knowing where all of his sources of information originated. However, never under-estimate how much knowledge was available 2400 years ago. Much of it lost, when parts of the Great Library of Alexandria ( it was not a single structure) were destroyed (estimated as four potential events) over 900 years of its' existence.
it is hear-saying. Why should we assume it as correct? How could Plato check the myth? Yes, the library with all its secrets. I would love to see this library, but I strongly suppose, that the myth about it, is as well bigger than the reality
 
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Egypt had relations with the greeks. there is a lot of reports. I would be surprised, if they could remember back to 11000 BC, but forgot the migration of the greek peoples to Greece. And we do not only need an Athens at 9000 BC, no, we need a powerful Athens. There is not a single evidence for this.
We know for certain that the Egyptians had relations with the Greeks at the time of Plato and also there are indications that they also had had relations with the previous Myceneans and the Minoans as well. But we simply do not know much about whom or what the Egyptians knew about before 6,000 BCE. This is because there are no written records that have survived. Whatever information about Atlantis that the Egyptians may have had either has not yet been discovered or is either lost or currently existing but not recognized.
There very well could have been a strong people (a seafaring one) residing at the site of Athens, but no records of these people so far exist. Just as no records of Gobekli Tepe existed previously either, but there Gobekli Tepe is.

attempts to record informations? We need a completely recorded myth about Atlantis, not an attempt to record information or some images.
We do have a "completely recorded" myth about Atlantis. It is called the Timaeus and Critias dialogues by Plato. And this is not an "attempt to record information." These accounts were written by one of the most respected philosophers of the ancient Hellenistic world. However, it is the only complete record we currently have. Or that survives. Where there was absolutely nothing on Gobekli Tepe, whatsoever. That Gobekli Tepe and all the other Anatolian sites now being uncovered existed so far back in unrecorded time (to the time of Atlantis) indicates or suggests that other places within the Greek-Turkey region could have also existed. Including a seafaring people residing at or near the vicinity of Athens. However, those people residing in this potential Athens would have been destroyed, as would all other coastal residing peoples around the Atlantic by the colossal tsunami created by the sinking of Atlantis into the sea. The most interesting thing about the dating of Gobekli Tepe is that it appears to have arisen very shortly after the time Plato stated Atlantis sank into the sea. Gobekli Tepe could have been created by survivors from Atlantis or at least their descendants. Further research there may reveal much that was never suspected about human capabilities 12,000 years ago.


What do you mean with advanced? If you have an "advanced" Atlantis, you need as well an advanced Egypt to record the story and an "advanced" athens to beat Alantis. and all these advanced cultures disappeared nearly completely, just with these myth left? Göbekli Tepe is a great archaeological site and "advanced" compared with other regions, but still neolithic.
Having an advanced Atlantis does not imply or require any "advanced" Egypt or an "advanced" Athens. You do not support this opinion with any rationale. The US is advanced but most other countries in the world are not as advanced and many (at least huge parts) are still just as primitive as they were 5000 years ago. According to Plato (or the priests of Sais) Atlantis was a colonizing civilization and quite a hostile one. Any people overcome by Atlantis were most likely oppressed and severely controlled. Whatever "advancements" were invented by Atlantis were also severely controlled, just as the silk creating process of China was strictly controlled for centuries. The mythos by Plato does say the Athenians ended up defeating the Atlanteans, but does not fully explain how or why this was done. If the US suddenly sank into the ocean, it wouldn't be long before our overseas forces would be overcome by hostile forces. And I hope one doesn't have to explain why or what would be obvious.

we have sculptures like the venus of willendorf, 25k years old
220px-Venus_von_Willendorf_01.jpg

and we have other findings, too. Nevertheless had we not mythically advanced cultures all over europe.
Except that we do have an advanced culture in Anatolia, which borders Europe. One dated at the same time as Atlantis and one where no "record" of it previously existed. Where there is one unknown civilization, lost to history, there could also be many others. We just have to find them. There are many in the round sculptures, that have been discovered all over Europe. Some are very crude and some extremely refined and date back to twice the age of Gobekli Tepe. Which suggests that there may be much about European sculptural capability we are not aware of. Gobekli Tepe, however. is the first example of advanced architectonic structures with bas-relief carving of high sophistication and very advanced stoneworking. And this technology exists contemporaneously near the exact timeline of Atlantis. Who knew?

The mythological Atlas, the map Atlas, the mountain range, the continent Atlantis, the Atlantic ocean, an Aztec Aztlan. And? Do all have the same roots. We don't know what Atlantis means, if it is the original name of these people (if they existed) or egyptian or of any other origin. Atlas means "heaver". If Atlantis means "Isle without name", there is absolutely no connection with both. It is the same with the mountain range. The native name seems to be different. So it got its greek name by the myth of Atlas. This is the same with the ocean. And the map is even named by somebody else than the Greek Atlas. The aztec Aztlan means probably land of the white bird. But the aztec culture is not at all 12,000 years old.
I seriously doubt if "Atlantis" was the name spoken by the people who lived on the lost continent. It is obviously a Greek term. One based on their mythological Atlas (a mythological concept that could, itself, have originated on Atlantis). All the sources giving reference to the Atlantic, the Atlas mountains or any people living near or in these places are Greek references. Terms which were eventually latinized and even later turned into english. However, this doesn't mean that a word similar sounding or related to "Atlantis" might have been passed down to the Egyptians, the Moroccans, finally to the Greeks and even to the Aztecs. A word similar to Atlas. The shorter a word is the more easily and reliably transmissible it becomes by oral means. This mythos must have been principally passed by oral transmission once Atlantis was subsumed by the ocean. Or remained recorded by surviving Atlanteans themselves. Whom the Egyptians may be directly, culturally connected to. However, once the capability of recording it was possible it would have then become a reasonably permanent impression of this mythos. We simply do not have any of these recordings or do not yet recognize them as such. And this story may exist in many evolved, convoluted and related forms all over the world.
As to the history of the Aztecs, we do not know how far back in history their mythology goes, where it originated or the credibility of their legends. There are peoples, currently residing in the US, whose history goes back to ancient India, Egypt, Europe, Polynesia, Africa and all points in between. Their mythos still lives in these transported peoples. Moreover, there is also a large contingent of native peoples, whose past extends back to the time 12,000 years ago, when humans crossed the Bering land bridge from Asia. Or possibly some (a very few)also could have come here to escape the destruction of a sinking continent.

it is hear-saying. Why should we assume it as correct? How could Plato check the myth? Yes, the library with all its secrets. I would love to see this library, but I strongly suppose, that the myth about it, is as well bigger than the reality
Everything is myth until proven to be factual. And myths do and can become "bigger than reality." However, within every myth lies the truth of its origin. The destruction of the Great Library and all its' knowledge was one of the worst crimes against knowledge in human history on a par with the almost complete destruction of the Mayan codices. Thousands of documents, in both cases; that recorded aspects of human history, are now lost forever. We can only surmise what might have been lost and hope that certain documents may possibly still exist. Documents still intact and hidden somewhere in lost or secret alcoves. Soon to be discovered "Dead Sea" scrolls about Atlantis. Maybe the still remaining buried portion of Gobekli Tepe (about 90%) will offer up a few more answers.
 
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We know for certain that the Egyptians had relations with the Greeks at the time of Plato and also there are indications that they also had had relations with the previous Myceneans and the Minoans as well. But we simply do not know much about whom or what the Egyptians knew about before 6,000 BCE. This is because there are no written records that have survived. Whatever information about Atlantis that the Egyptians may have had either has not yet been discovered or is either lost or currently existing but not recognized.
There very well could have been a strong people (a seafaring one) residing at the site of Athens, but no records of these people so far exist. Just as no records of Gobekli Tepe existed previously either, but there Gobekli Tepe is.
I mean, it is dubious, that they knew so detailed about Atlantis and Athens in 9000, but that we have so few information about the mycenian greece.
Yes, of course it is possible, that there was such strong nation in 9000. perhaps they were as well on the Moon and mars. We don't know this, too.

We do have a "completely recorded" myth about Atlantis. It is called the Timaeus and Critias dialogues by Plato. And this is not an "attempt to record information." These accounts were written by one of the most respected philosophers of the ancient Hellenistic world. However, it is the only complete record we currently have. Or that survives. Where there was absolutely nothing on Gobekli Tepe, whatsoever. That Gobekli Tepe and all the other Anatolian sites now being uncovered existed so far back in unrecorded time (to the time of Atlantis) indicates or suggests that other places within the Greek-Turkey region could have also existed. Including a seafaring people residing at or near the vicinity of Athens. However, those people residing in this potential Athens would have been destroyed, as would all other coastal residing peoples around the Atlantic by the colossal tsunami created by the sinking of Atlantis into the sea. The most interesting thing about the dating of Gobekli Tepe is that it appears to have arisen very shortly after the time Plato stated Atlantis sank into the sea. Gobekli Tepe could have been created by survivors from Atlantis or at least their descendants. Further research there may reveal much that was never suspected about human capabilities 12,000 years ago.
You wrote at those days were first attempts to record information. The Atlantis myth is no such attempt, as you said, its a complete myth. That's why 9000 BC is not probable.
You present us Göbekli tepe as an advanced metropolis. it was a great site, but it is still a neolithic site.

Having an advanced Atlantis does not imply or require any "advanced" Egypt or an "advanced" Athens. You do not support this opinion with any rationale. The US is advanced but most other countries in the world are not as advanced and many (at least huge parts) are still just as primitive as they were 5000 years ago. According to Plato (or the priests of Sais) Atlantis was a colonizing civilization and quite a hostile one. Any people overcome by Atlantis were most likely oppressed and severely controlled. Whatever "advancements" were invented by Atlantis were also severely controlled, just as the silk creating process of China was strictly controlled for centuries. The mythos by Plato does say the Athenians ended up defeating the Atlanteans, but does not fully explain how or why this was done. If the US suddenly sank into the ocean, it wouldn't be long before our overseas forces would be overcome by hostile forces. And I hope one doesn't have to explain why or what would be obvious.
atlantis was beaten by athens and the story recorded by Egypt. so both had to be advanced too.

Except that we do have an advanced culture in Anatolia, which borders Europe. One dated at the same time as Atlantis and one where no "record" of it previously existed. Where there is one unknown civilization, lost to history, there could also be many others. We just have to find them. There are many in the round sculptures, that have been discovered all over Europe. Some are very crude and some extremely refined and date back to twice the age of Gobekli Tepe. Which suggests that there may be much about European sculptural capability we are not aware of. Gobekli Tepe, however. is the first example of advanced architectonic structures with bas-relief carving of high sophistication and very advanced stoneworking. And this technology exists contemporaneously near the exact timeline of Atlantis. Who knew?
The people of Göbekli tepe build a sacred place. they were AFAWK, hunters and gatherers and not a high culture.

I seriously doubt if "Atlantis" was the name spoken by the people who lived on the lost continent. It is obviously a Greek term. One based on their mythological Atlas (a mythological concept that could, itself, have originated on Atlantis). All the sources giving reference to the Atlantic, the Atlas mountains or any people living near or in these places are Greek references. Terms which were eventually latinized and even later turned into english. However, this doesn't mean that a word similar sounding or related to "Atlantis" might have been passed down to the Egyptians, the Moroccans, finally to the Greeks and even to the Aztecs. A word similar to Atlas. The shorter a word is the more easily and reliably transmissible it becomes by oral means. This mythos must have been principally passed by oral transmission once Atlantis was subsumed by the ocean. Or remained recorded by surviving Atlanteans themselves. Whom the Egyptians may be directly, culturally connected to. However, once the capability of recording it was possible it would have then become a reasonably permanent impression of this mythos. We simply do not have any of these recordings or do not yet recognize them as such. And this story may exist in many evolved, convoluted and related forms all over the world.
As to the history of the Aztecs, we do not know how far back in history their mythology goes, where it originated or the credibility of their legends. There are peoples, currently residing in the US, whose history goes back to ancient India, Egypt, Europe, Polynesia, Africa and all points in between. Their mythos still lives in these transported peoples. Moreover, there is also a large contingent of native peoples, whose past extends back to the time 12,000 years ago, when humans crossed the Bering land bridge from Asia. Or possibly some (a very few)also could have come here to escape the destruction of a sinking continent.
if Platon got the myth via kritias and Solon from the Egyptians, shouldn't it be a Egyptian name or the correct name of the people? And even if we don't know what atlanis means, we know what the greek and aztec meaning is. and they are not identically.

Everything is myth until proven to be factual. And myths do and can become "bigger than reality." However, within every myth lies the truth of its origin. The destruction of the Great Library and all its' knowledge was one of the worst crimes against knowledge in human history on a par with the almost complete destruction of the Mayan codices. Thousands of documents, in both cases; that recorded aspects of human history, are now lost forever. We can only surmise what might have been lost and hope that certain documents may possibly still exist. Documents still intact and hidden somewhere in lost or secret alcoves. Soon to be discovered "Dead Sea" scrolls about Atlantis. Maybe the still remaining buried portion of Gobekli Tepe (about 90%) will offer up a few more answers.
I would agree, that in myths often lies a truth, but what truth. In the nibelungen saga, the borgonds moved to attila and were destroyed in his capitol. the truth is, that the borgonds were destroyed by the roman magister Aetius, who had a lot of hunnic troops. In these saga circle we have theoderich, who lived later, we have danes like Lüdeher and Lüdegast, who didn't raid at those early years. Well, one historian even supposes, that the huns of the saga are no huns at all but frisian Huna and the Hunnic Sosat the westfalian town of Soest. So what is the truth of the nibelungen myth? is it Siegfried. he drove to iceland, which was uninhabited at those days or is it a German isenland?
Or if you like to saty in the mediterranian area. What is the truth in the myth of Troy? that there was a war? That greeks fought against Troy? Maybe, maybe not. Myths are first of all myths
 
Joined Sep 2012
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I found some geoglyphs that are too complex for the natives, and are close to the Mt Shasta area in California. They could be earthart, but I just cant believe they were accidental. I learned how to blog to show them to people. I would love to know what everyone thinks they are. www.americangeoglyphs.com
To the right of the blog are pages. Under the heading of Random Interesting sites click on the Goat Head. Also look close at the fertility site. The testicles have a alien face in them. Also, the eye site. Is very close to the eye of Horus.
Thanks
 

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