East and West

Joined Dec 2012
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USA
Another thread got me thinking; what does Historum have to say of Medieval Europe's most prominent feature: its dual nature, of a Greek east and Latin west?

Many have argued that this oringinates in Roman times; once Latin had spread to the West, a gradual linguistic and cultural rift emerged between the two halves of the Mediterranean, which continued and grew into the Medieval period. I understand that many, as a result, tend to see Byzantium as different from the West wholly- and to not have evovled out of the same world.

My own opinion is of course a far different story, and wholly influenced and biased of course:cool:, by my fervent study of the southern Mediterranean. But what are your thoughts on the subject, Historumites?
 
Joined Mar 2013
393 Posts | 3+
california
For the ordinary inhabitant of areas you describe, the linguistic and cultural rift probably had no relevance: the average Gaul probably had little in common linguistically and culturally with the average Bithynian or Cappadocian.

But ideologically, I think the rift started with the gradual sidelining of the traditional Senatorial aristocracy and the upper-class ethos they upheld, which of course included immersion in both Greek and Latin culture.
 
Joined Dec 2012
449 Posts | 0+
USA
For the ordinary inhabitant of areas you describe, the linguistic and cultural rift probably had no relevance: the average Gaul probably had little in common linguistically and culturally with the average Bithynian or Cappadocian.

But ideologically, I think the rift started with the gradual sidelining of the traditional Senatorial aristocracy and the upper-class ethos they upheld, which of course included immersion in both Greek and Latin culture.

Haha, you essentially re-stated a thesis of mine here :lol:. Yes, in my view as well it is the Senatorial elite with their Estates, and the similar-looking cities dotting the Mediterranean whch best show us the virtual "unanimity" of Greek and Latin. For example, much as the Sentorial class in Italy and Baetica almost all spoke Greek- with some being Greeks themselves- so too was Greek a common tongue in the urban ports and markets on either side of the Sea.

On a higher note, the Villa culture- and the urban centers serving a common functionality- are prime pieces of Roman Civilization. It seems logical to me that with the disappearence of this form of living in the 7th and eigth centuries, in Gaul and Anatolia, has something to do with a religio-cultural scale on the proportions we see during the Middle Ages.
 
Joined Dec 2009
5,364 Posts | 1,122+
Blachernai
Haha, you essentially re-stated a thesis of mine here :lol:. Yes, in my view as well it is the Senatorial elite with their Estates, and the similar-looking cities dotting the Mediterranean whch best show us the virtual "unanimity" of Greek and Latin. For example, much as the Sentorial class in Italy and Baetica almost all spoke Greek- with some being Greeks themselves- so too was Greek a common tongue in the urban ports and markets on either side of the Sea.

On a higher note, the Villa culture- and the urban centers serving a common functionality- are prime pieces of Roman Civilization. It seems logical to me that with the disappearence of this form of living in the 7th and eigth centuries, in Gaul and Anatolia, has something to do with a religio-cultural scale on the proportions we see during the Middle Ages.

I agree that this Greek and Latin dichotomy is one that arises from elite culture, but I think that is a false and inaccurate way to representing the medieval world. First, it implies a greater continuity with Graeco-Roman civilization than is often the case. This is not to say that all of classical civilization disappeared on either side, but rather to give the period greater appreciation on its own ground rather than following the Enlightenment Romanophile reasoning that some late antiquity scholars have taken up. The idea of a Greek east and Latin west is a false dichotomy that fails to give proper credence to many of the other cultures and languages that formed the interplay of life around the Mediterranean. Realistically speaking, we can only talk of a Greek/Armenian/Syriac/Arabic east.
 
Joined Dec 2012
449 Posts | 0+
USA
I agree that this Greek and Latin dichotomy is one that arises from elite culture, but I think that is a false and inaccurate way to representing the medieval world. First, it implies a greater continuity with Graeco-Roman civilization than is often the case. This is not to say that all of classical civilization disappeared on either side, but rather to give the period greater appreciation on its own ground rather than following the Enlightenment Romanophile reasoning that some late antiquity scholars have taken up. The idea of a Greek east and Latin west is a false dichotomy that fails to give proper credence to many of the other cultures and languages that formed the interplay of life around the Mediterranean. Realistically speaking, we can only talk of a Greek/Armenian/Syriac/Arabic east.

Agreed. On account of Greek and latin Senaotrial class, I was Generalizing, but was referring to the Imperial period, not the Medieval. (hence senatorial)

Also, you are spot on with the Greek-Latin "oversimplification" we see in lots of modern scholarship. I can tell you, that in our period of late Antiquity, you can draw the same parallels in the west. The "Latin West" was somewhat less distinct in it's social and regional cultural layering- but the same law applies. In the west of Africa and Spain, large tracts if land remained out of touch for all intents and purposes eith the rest of Romanitas. In Baetica we can still see the ghosts of non-roman populations representing themselves through different cultures within the social ladder, as demonstrated excellently by Malaca.
 
Joined Jan 2012
2,381 Posts | 10+
Northern part of European lowland
Many ways to divide ..

Significant parts of Europe had very limited or no greek or roman (or christian) heritage, so there is more than one division.
 
Joined Dec 2009
5,364 Posts | 1,122+
Blachernai
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Agreed. On account of Greek and latin Senaotrial class, I was Generalizing, but was referring to the Imperial period, not the Medieval. (hence senatorial)

Also, you are spot on with the Greek-Latin "oversimplification" we see in lots of modern scholarship. I can tell you, that in our period of late Antiquity, you can draw the same parallels in the west. The "Latin West" was somewhat less distinct in it's social and regional cultural layering- but the same law applies. In the west of Africa and Spain, large tracts if land remained out of touch for all intents and purposes eith the rest of Romanitas. In Baetica we can still see the ghosts of non-roman populations representing themselves through different cultures within the social ladder, as demonstrated excellently by Malaca.

Thanks. I was hoping you were going to fill in on the divisions in the early medieval west, since my gaze is firmly fixed between Constantinople and Damascus, and thus I don't get much of a chance to look west very often.

I do suspect (but haven't looked into the most important recent work on the topic, a book in French by Christian Settipani) that the final death-blow to the senatorials in the Byzantine lands was less the loss of the city and moreso their complete loss of function. Caucasian aristocrats seem to have eagerly stepped into military roles in Byzantium in the seventh and eighth centuries, creating a new aristocracy that got its power from the army and was not based in Graeco-Roman culture. I would also hazard a guess that this is related to the lack of literature in classical genres from the "dark age" period; these new aristocrats were largely busy elsewhere, and on top of that there was no good story with a beginning, middle, and end to tell, since Byzantium was still fighting for its life. Throughout the entire Roman the elites had served as agents in the collection of taxes, but this seems to have become particularly stringent under the Dominate. With the collapse of the standing army in the seventh century and the subsequent economic damage, specially appointed imperial officials appear and seem to have become the IRS in the countryside, further diminishing the already limited roles of the traditional elites.
 
Joined Mar 2013
1,227 Posts | 238+
Breakdancing on the Moon.
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I agree that this Greek and Latin dichotomy is one that arises from elite culture, but I think that is a false and inaccurate way to representing the medieval world. First, it implies a greater continuity with Graeco-Roman civilization than is often the case. This is not to say that all of classical civilization disappeared on either side, but rather to give the period greater appreciation on its own ground rather than following the Enlightenment Romanophile reasoning that some late antiquity scholars have taken up. The idea of a Greek east and Latin west is a false dichotomy that fails to give proper credence to many of the other cultures and languages that formed the interplay of life around the Mediterranean. Realistically speaking, we can only talk of a Greek/Armenian/Syriac/Arabic east.

People in your discipline say this. People in my discipline say this. Yet this isn't ever going to really percolate throughout pop history and the public ever. This is something that I was discussing with a sociologist friend of mine recently. People are too vested, the blinkers are on too tightly. You'd have to suborn someone with a lot of popular clout and get them to almost...preach. Its one of the things that makes any outreach work an absolute nightmare btw.

I think generally the classical element in the East is heavily under-estimated though, again from ideology and then simple habit.
 
Joined Dec 2009
5,364 Posts | 1,122+
Blachernai
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People in your discipline say this. People in my discipline say this. Yet this isn't ever going to really percolate throughout pop history and the public ever. This is something that I was discussing with a sociologist friend of mine recently. People are too vested, the blinkers are on too tightly. You'd have to suborn someone with a lot of popular clout and get them to almost...preach. Its one of the things that makes any outreach work an absolute nightmare btw.

I think generally the classical element in the East is heavily under-estimated though, again from ideology and then simple habit.

I suspect the difficulty in acquiring the languages is part of the problem. Until relatively recently, there was no English textbook for learning Syriac without having first learned Hebrew. Armenian is a rare language that hardly ever seems to be taught. Finding Arabic programs is easier, but at least in my experience (I'm in a late antiquity program that is entirely taught by classicists, who despite generally having a Brownian outlook on things don't go beyond the reign of Justinian) there are few who have the classical languages and Arabic. I'm going to have to go overseas to do a D.Phil where I can learn some classical Arabic, because at least here it is not taught.

I do wonder if the classical element in the Byzantine world is de-emphasized since it seems more than a few Byzantinists are disgruntled classicists. I'm certainly amongst that crowd, but at the same time I have little trouble in seeing the 7-9th c. as a time where the classical element has reached its nadir, although this could simply be related to the source material we have.
 
Joined Dec 2012
449 Posts | 0+
USA
Thanks. I was hoping you were going to fill in on the divisions in the early medieval west, since my gaze is firmly fixed between Constantinople and Damascus, and thus I don't get much of a chance to look west very often.

I do suspect (but haven't looked into the most important recent work on the topic, a book in French by Christian Settipani) that the final death-blow to the senatorials in the Byzantine lands was less the loss of the city and moreso their complete loss of function. Caucasian aristocrats seem to have eagerly stepped into military roles in Byzantium in the seventh and eighth centuries, creating a new aristocracy that got its power from the army and was not based in Graeco-Roman culture. I would also hazard a guess that this is related to the lack of literature in classical genres from the "dark age" period; these new aristocrats were largely busy elsewhere, and on top of that there was no good story with a beginning, middle, and end to tell, since Byzantium was still fighting for its life. Throughout the entire Roman the elites had served as agents in the collection of taxes, but this seems to have become particularly stringent under the Dominate. With the collapse of the standing army in the seventh century and the subsequent economic damage, specially appointed imperial officials appear and seem to have become the IRS in the countryside, further diminishing the already limited roles of the traditional elites.

Indeed. The case of Gaul around the same time period I believe to be somewhat a similar transformation, although Gaul of this period is not my specialty. I do want to stress the similarity, that instead of what we had going on in Iberia- IE an almost complete absorbtion of the Goths into the Senatorial Aristocracy, and assuming many aspects of their administrative and poltiical functionalities- the Frankish realm, perhaps due to holding equal weight across the Rhine, continued down the path of replacing the Senatorial elite with a new, militarized aristocracy, entirely Germanic in it's capabilities- but, ironically, Latin speaking and mostly indigenous. The process is similar to what happened in Anatolia, albeit obviously without the influence of Constantinople direct control, and the lack of the Germanic (IE like Byzantium's Armenian and Caucasian) families importing themselves; it was essentially their practical roles that were adopted. It is also, however, in the west, a continuation of the events of the 5th century- but developing opposite after the 6th century to that of Gothic hispania.

Kind of a mouthful,:persevere: but the process is indeed hard to explain. It's also important that we give Frankish lands across the Rhine their bit of influence on these developments, too. Similarly to how the Armenian and Caucasian influences began to really take effect in the 7th century in Byzantium, so too did the Germanic, non-Frankish influences from beyond the Rhine take their hold as well. Previously the caste of the Franks followed the path of the Goths, but after the 6th century, their roles and assimilation into gaul were interrupted and began to show influence of Germania- as did the whole of Francia north of Provence, Septimania and Aquitaine.

Very interesting the whole tax system was in Late Antiquity. Similarly to both Byzantium, and surprisingly, Lombardy, the tax systems broke down in a very similar manner.
 
Joined Dec 2012
449 Posts | 0+
USA
People in your discipline say this. People in my discipline say this. Yet this isn't ever going to really percolate throughout pop history and the public ever. This is something that I was discussing with a sociologist friend of mine recently. People are too vested, the blinkers are on too tightly. You'd have to suborn someone with a lot of popular clout and get them to almost...preach. Its one of the things that makes any outreach work an absolute nightmare btw.

I think generally the classical element in the East is heavily under-estimated though, again from ideology and then simple habit.

It is very true, although I can't help but wonder if channels like "History" are partly to blame for the vast quantities of misinformation floating about the eyes of the public (Lorica Segmentata in the Punic Wars, anyone?).

It definantly makes for a nightmarish presentation if trying to deliver a speech to a public audiance, such as in Universities or Museums. Half the presentations are usually clouted by dissolving common misconceptions about any one topic.
 
Joined Mar 2013
1,227 Posts | 238+
Breakdancing on the Moon.
I suspect the difficulty in acquiring the languages is part of the problem. Until relatively recently, there was no English textbook for learning Syriac without having first learned Hebrew. Armenian is a rare language that hardly ever seems to be taught. Finding Arabic programs is easier, but at least in my experience (I'm in a late antiquity program that is entirely taught by classicists, who despite generally having a Brownian outlook on things don't go beyond the reign of Justinian) there are few who have the classical languages and Arabic. I'm going to have to go overseas to do a D.Phil where I can learn some classical Arabic, because at least here it is not taught.

I do wonder if the classical element in the Byzantine world is de-emphasized since it seems more than a few Byzantinists are disgruntled classicists. I'm certainly amongst that crowd, but at the same time I have little trouble in seeing the 7-9th c. as a time where the classical element has reached its nadir, although this could simply be related to the source material we have.

I think its a mix, in that there IS natural evolution...I mean all the basic elements conceivably have Roman roots...but obviously time takes its toll and you have extraneous cultural influence too. Its not like the West in that regard.

Eh ancillary languages are difficult to come by. Although here we do have excellent training if you adopt a relative position its not AMAZING. I think anybody wasting their time on Aristotle and Plato tends to pick up Arabic if they want to apply a teleological viewpoint.

Armenian is an absolute ..... in that you either get hyper specialised monographs from whence you can not learn OR the usual colloquial/teach yourself crap. Which don't teach you enough. I can only imagine picking up Syriac or Hebrew or, gods, Coptic/Demotic is a gigantic headache. Well not so much Hebrew nowadays. I'm curious as to where the next generation will take these things.
 
Joined Dec 2012
449 Posts | 0+
USA
Coptic/Demotic is a gigantic headache.

You're right, if you're trying to learn it via "not-on-your-own", IE the smart way to do it. Demotic is one of those things I've picked up after learning Coptic; and is not a smooth transition to learn at all. Coptic is an easier step, as it has it's own alphabet, based off the Greek; Demotic requires an already complete understanding of Coptic and KoineGreek.

So if you're trying to learn the languages, if you can find a way to be taught, AMEN- avoids a years-long headache. If you cannot, as in my case, i've found that simply put, familiarity with the script and taking it from there is the best way to go.
 
Joined Dec 2009
5,364 Posts | 1,122+
Blachernai
Armenian is an absolute ..... in that you either get hyper specialised monographs from whence you can not learn OR the usual colloquial/teach yourself crap. Which don't teach you enough. I can only imagine picking up Syriac or Hebrew or, gods, Coptic/Demotic is a gigantic headache. Well not so much Hebrew nowadays. I'm curious as to where the next generation will take these things.

I've been doing Syriac since January, and it's astonishingly not that hard. It's not simple, but compared to Greek or Latin there is just so much less to the grammar. We did the complete grammar in 14 weeks meeting once a week for an hour and a half each time. I am glad I had a teacher, though, since there are some things that the book just doesn't tell you, like how pointed texts don't exist unless you're reading a few select things, and how much of Syriac is in Estrangela and not the Serta script the book used.

Oxford is high up on my list of potential D.Phil places due to the training in ancillary languages, since I would certainly need Arabic for my proposed thesis and would need to get some more experience reading Syriac as well.
 
Joined Mar 2013
1,227 Posts | 238+
Breakdancing on the Moon.
Yeah I mean in terms of materials. To be fair, we have it easier than our predecessors and the next generation will have it easier. Yep, lots of auxiliary language support here - but again poor material.

Arabic, to be fair, has a myriad of great resources at least.

You're right, if you're trying to learn it via "not-on-your-own", IE the smart way to do it. Demotic is one of those things I've picked up after learning Coptic; and is not a smooth transition to learn at all. Coptic is an easier step, as it has it's own alphabet, based off the Greek; Demotic requires an already complete understanding of Coptic and KoineGreek.

So if you're trying to learn the languages, if you can find a way to be taught, AMEN- avoids a years-long headache. If you cannot, as in my case, i've found that simply put, familiarity with the script and taking it from there is the best way to go.

Oh really? I didnt' even know there were easily accessible materials. I actually self taught Latin in a few weeks prior to university and most of my languages have also been...well self taught. I actually prefer it since I can dictate the pace, though its much faster if you have recourse to an expert.

That's interesting though, however this really isn't my field by several centuries so i'm just generally curious about these languages. I'll never pick them up. :p
 
Joined Feb 2013
6,724 Posts | 28+
I would say that the picture is drastically oversimplified in too many ways to be useful, frankly. The West was as much Germanized as it was Latin, the East had far more influence from the Slavs and the Arabs (Spain being the major exception to this in the West, the Varangian Empire in Kiev the major exception to this in the East). There is a split like this, but it was in the Graeco-Roman context. Medieval Europe had at least three, if not four or more separate cultures altogether, not simply two divided on a hoary old dichotomy that doesn't really apply.

The only case where this actually would work is in terms of the split between those clerics loyal to the Bishop of Rome and those loyal to the Bishop of Constantinople.
 

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