Greek or Roman

Rome or Greece

  • Rome

    Votes: 23 50.0%
  • Greece

    Votes: 14 30.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 9 19.6%

  • Total voters
    46
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Archived
Joined Jun 2010
3,582 Posts | 1+
Quoted for truth.

Abandon-Ship.jpg


With all due respect for the arguments of Thess and LoG but this will be a repeat of another (plural actually) thread and frankly, with all due respect for the OP, this thread was Lounge to begin with. Boy loving or manly? :notrust:

WE SINK! WE SINK!

OH, WE ALREADY SANK!

Nice post gaius valerius, I enjoied that!
 
Joined Jun 2010
3,582 Posts | 1+
Lord of Gauda's intrusions and red herrings are getting boring too.

I adresed my post to you because I never speak to those who do not listen. At least intentionally. And because I love Rome. And because I love Greece.

(And because my sexual orientation does not involve criminal activities)
 
Joined Sep 2010
10,810 Posts | 50+
Serbia
I bet OP is somewhere getting a laugh out of this.He put a hook out,and some took the bait straight away(never in doubt).Mission accomplished.:cool:
Alcibiades
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
The question remains.... How a thread that is titled "Greek or Roman" suddenly includes Egypt and India? The usual suspect is to blame!
 
Joined Jun 2010
3,582 Posts | 1+
I bet OP is somewhere getting a laugh out of this.He put a hook out,and some took the bait straight away(never in doubt).Mission accomplished.:cool:
Alcibiades

Absolutely. He got a good catch. Now, all people go to a nurse, make yourself wipe the blood out of the lip that has bitten the hook.

Oh, if she's pretty (or he's handsom), try to re-orientate sexuality!:lol::lol::lol:
 
Joined Aug 2009
5,747 Posts | 10+
Belgium
Oh, if she's pretty (or he's handsom), try to re-orientate sexuality!:lol::lol::lol:

Or not, more chances for the other team :cool:. See, we've effectively derailed this ghastly thread for the mods to step in and lock it or at least move it to Lounge where it belongs. It's not trolling though, it's an intervention (I hope ppl watch How I Met Your Mother :)).

20090626075442147.jpg
 
Joined Sep 2010
10,810 Posts | 50+
Serbia
Or not, more chances for the other team :cool:. See, we've effectively derailed this ghastly thread for the mods to step in and lock it or at least move it to Lounge where it belongs. It's not trolling though, it's an intervention (I hope ppl watch How I Met Your Mother :)).

20090626075442147.jpg
We are actually saving the people of Historum by purposefully derailing this thread.I do think we deserve some kind of an award,or at least a recognition.:cool:
Alcibiades
 
Joined Aug 2009
5,747 Posts | 10+
Belgium
We are actually saving the people of Historum by purposefully derailing this thread.I do think we deserve some kind of an award,or at least a recognition.:cool:
Alcibiades

;;;Celestial Being Reporting in!;;;
lrg-662-celestial_being-gundam-00.png


...here to end the war between Romans,
Greeks, Indians and all others by armed intervention.
 
Joined Jul 2009
6,478 Posts | 16+
Montreal, Canada
How did a thread on the Greeks vs the Romans evolved to another Greek vs Indian one?:lol::lol:
 
Joined Aug 2009
5,747 Posts | 10+
Belgium
That's why Celestial Being is crashing this party and ending the war by armed intervention. HIYYAAH!
 
Joined Jun 2009
6,987 Posts | 17+
Glorious England
Same goes for Greece pre 700 BCE.
Nothing more than farming cultures and hovels.

I'm afraid this isn't true, we know that Mycenaean culture was palace-based, with developed cities and an alarming amount of bureaucracy. It does boggle my mind that when humans first start to record anything, its boring bureaucratic records.
 
Joined Oct 2010
797 Posts | 0+
:lol:It is always fine to watch Thess and LOG to go over the same arguments over and over again.
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
:lol:It is always fine to watch Thess and LOG to go over the same arguments over and over again.


There is a difference though. To prove that one copied from another is far more difficult and speculative than proving that certain knowledge existed. I go for the latter, he goes for the first one.
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
[SIZE=+1]Was Greek Culture Stolen from Africa?
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Modern myth vs. ancient history[/SIZE]
Excerpted from her Book Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History
Why I wrote the book. In the fall of 1991 I was asked to write a review-article for The New Republic about Martin Bernal's Black Athena and its relation to the Afrocentrist movement. The assignment literally changed my life. Once I began to work on the article I realized that here was a subject that needed all the attention, and more, that I could give to it. Although I had been completely unaware of it, there was in existence a whole literature that denied that the ancient Greeks were the inventors of democracy, philosophy, and science. There were books in circulation that claimed that Socrates and Cleopatra were of African descent, and that Greek philosophy had actually been stolen from Egypt. Not only were these books being read and widely distributed; some of these ideas were being taught in schools and even in universities.
Ordinarily, if someone has a theory which involves a radical departure from what the experts have professed, he is expected to defend his position by providing evidence in its support. But no one seemed to think it was appropriate to ask for evidence from the instructors who claimed that the Greeks stole their philosophy from Egypt.
Normally, if one has a question about a text that another instructor is using, one simply asks why he or she is using that book. But since this conventional line of inquiry was closed to me, I had to wait till I could raise my questions in a more public context. That opportunity came in February 1993, when Dr. Yosef A. A. ben-Jochannan was invited to give Wellesley's Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial lecture. Posters described Dr. ben-Jochannan as a "distinguished Egyptologist," and indeed that is how he was introduced by the then President of Wellesley College. But I knew from my research in Afrocentric literature that he was not what scholars would ordinarily describe as an Egyptologist, that is a scholar of Egyptian language and civilization. Rather, he was an extreme Afrocentrist, author of many books describing how Greek civilization was stolen from Africa, how Aristotle robbed the library of Alexandria, and how the true Jews are Africans like himself.
After Dr. ben-Jochannan made these same assertions once again in his lecture, I asked him during the question period why he said that Aristotle had come to Egypt with Alexander, and had stolen his philosophy from the Library at Alexandria, when that Library had only been built after his death. Dr. ben-Jochannan was unable to answer the question, and said that he resented the tone of the inquiry. Several students came up to me after the lecture and accused me of racism, suggesting that I had been brainwashed by white historians. But others stayed to hear me out, and I assured Dr. ben-Jochannan that I simply wanted to know what his evidence was: so far as I knew, and I had studied the subject, Aristotle never went to Egypt, and while the date of the Library of Alexandria is not known precisely, it was certainly only built some years after the city was founded, which was after both Aristotle's and Alexander's deaths.
A lecture at which serious questions could not be asked, and in fact were greeted with hostility -- the occasion seemed more like a political rally than an academic event. As if that were not disturbing enough in itself, there was also the strange silence on the part of many of my faculty colleagues. Several of these were well aware that what Dr. ben-Jochannan was saying was factually wrong. One of them said later that she found the lecture so "hopeless" that she decided to say nothing. Were they afraid of being called racists? If so, their behavior was understandable, but not entirely responsible. Didn't we as educators owe it to our students, all our students, to see that they got the best education they could possibly get? And that clearly was what they were not getting in a lecture where they were being told myths disguised as history, and where discussion and analysis had apparently been forbidden.
Good as the myths they were hearing may have made these students feel, so long as they never left the Afrocentric environment in which they were being nurtured and sheltered, they were being systematically deprived of the most important features of a university education. They were not learning how to question themselves and others, they were not learning to distinguish facts from fiction, nor in fact were they learning how to think for themselves. Their instructors had forgotten, while the rest of us sat by and did nothing about it, that students do not come to universities to be indoctrinated --at least in a free society.





Did Plato Study in Egypt?
Plato never says in any of his writings that he went to Egypt, and there is no reference to such a visit in the semi-biographical Seventh Epistle. But in his dialogues he refers to some Egyptian myths and customs. Plato, of course, was not a historian, and the rather superficial knowledge of Egypt displayed in his dialogues, along with vague chronology, is more characteristic of historical fiction than of history. In fact, anecdotes about his visit to Egypt only turn up in writers of the later Hellenistic period. What better way to explain his several references to Egypt than to assume that the author had some first-hand knowledge of the customs he describes? For authors dating from the fourth century and earlier, ancient biographers were compelled to use as their principal source material the author's own works. Later biographers add details to the story of Plato's Egyptian travels in order to provide aetiologies for the "Egyptian" reference in his writings. The most ironic anecdote of all is preserved by Clement of Alexandria: Plato studied in Egypt with Hermes the "Thrice Great" (Trismegistus). This is tantamount to saying that Plato studied with himself after his death. The works of Hermes could not have been written without the conceptual vocabulary developed by Plato and Aristotle, and is deeply influenced not just by Plato, but by the writings of Neoplatonist philosophers in the early centuries AD. In any case, whoever these teachers were, Plato seems never to have learned from them anything that is characteristically Egyptian, at least so far as we know about Egyptian theology from Egyptian sources. Instead, Plato's notion of the Egyptians remains similar to that of other Athenians; he did not so much change the Athenian notion of Egyptian culture as enrich and idealize it, so that it could provide a dramatic and instructive contrast with Athenian customs in his dialogues.
Was there ever such a thing as an "Egyptian Mystery System?"
Even after nineteenth-century scholars had shown that the reports of Greek visitors to Egypt misunderstood and misrepresented what they saw, the myth that Greek philosophy derived from Egypt is still in circulation. The notion of an Egyptian legacy was preserved in the literature and ritual of Freemasonry. It was from that source that Afrocentrists learned about it, and then sought to find confirmation for the primacy of Egypt over Greece in the fantasies of ancient writers. In order to show that Greek philosophy is in reality stolen Egyptian philosophy, Afrocentrist writers assume that there was in existence from earliest times an "Egyptian Mystery System," which was copied by the Greeks. The existence of this "Mystery System" is integral to the notion that Greek philosophy was stolen, because it provides a reason for assuming that Greek philosophers had a particular reason for studying in Egypt, and for claiming that what they later wrote about in Greek was originally Egyptian philosophy. But in reality, the notion of an Egyptian Mystery System is a relatively modern fiction, based on ancient sources that are distinctively Greek, or Greco-Roman, and from the early centuries AD.
In their original form, ancient mysteries had nothing to do with schools or particular courses of study; rather, the ritual was intended to put the initiate into contact with the divinity, and if special preparation or rituals were involved, it was to familiarize the initiate with the practices and liturgy of that particular cult. The origin of the connection of Mysteries to education in fact dates only to the eighteenth century. It derives from a particular work of European fiction, published in 1731. This was the three-volume work Sethos, a History or Biography, based on Unpublished Memoirs of Ancient Egypt, by the Abbé Jean Terrasson (1670-1750), a French priest, who was Professor of Greek at the Collège de France. Although now completely forgotten, the novel was widely read in the eighteenth century..Of course Terrasson did not have access to any Egyptian information about Egypt, since hieroglyphics were not to be deciphered until more than a century later.
Why claim that Greek philosophy was stolen from Egypt?
Perhaps the most influential Afrocentrist text is Stolen Legacy, a work that has been in wide circulation since its publication in 1954. Its author, George G. M. James, writes that "the term Greek philosophy, to begin with is a misnomer, for there is no such philosophy in existence." He argues that the Greeks "did not possess the native ability essential to the development of philosophy." Rather, he states that "the Greeks were not the authors of Greek philosophy, but the Black people of North Africa, The Egyptians." It is not hard to understand why James wishes to give credit for the Greek achievement to the Egyptians, even if there is little or no historical foundation for his claims. Like the other nationalistic myths, the story of a "Stolen Legacy" both offers an explanation for past suffering, and provides a source of ethnic pride.
But although the myth may encourage and perhaps even "empower" African-Americans, its use has a destructive side, which cannot and should not be overlooked. First of all, it offers them a "story" instead of history. It also suggests that African-Americans need to learn only what they choose to believe about the past. But in so doing, the Afrocentric myth seeks to shelter them from learning what all other ethnic groups must learn, and indeed, face up to, namely the full scope of their history.
What people on earth have had a completely glorious history? While we point to the great achievements of the Greeks, anyone who has studied ancient Greek civilization knows that they also made terrible and foolish mistakes. Isn't treating African-Americans differently from the rest of humankind just another form of segregation and condescension? Implied discrimination is the most destructive aspect of Afrocentrism, but there are other serious problems as well. Teaching the myth of the Stolen Legacy as if it were history robs the ancient Greeks and their modern descendants of a heritage that rightly belongs to them. Why discriminate against them when discrimination is the issue? In addition, the myth deprives the ancient Egyptians of their proper history and robs them of their actual legacy. The Egypt of the myth of the Stolen Legacy is a wholly European Egypt, as imagined by Greek and Roman writers, and further elaborated in eighteenth-century France. Ancient Egyptian civilization deserves to be remembered (and respected) for what it was, and not for what Europeans, ancient and modern, have imagined it to be.
What is the evidence for a "Stolen Legacy?"
James's idea of ancient Egypt is fundamentally the imaginary "Mystical Egypt" of Freemasonry. He speaks of grades of initiation. In these Mysteries, as the Freemasons imagined them, Neophyte initiates must learn self-control and self-knowledge. He believes that Moses was an initiate into the Egyptian mysteries, and that Socrates reached the grade of Master Mason. In his description of the Greek philosophy, he emphasizes the Four Elements that play such a key role in Terrasson's Memphis and Masonic initiation ceremonies. He speaks of the Masonic symbol of the Open Eye, which based on an Egyptian hieroglyph but in Masonry has come specifically to represent the Master Mind. As in the University/Mystery system invented by Terrasson, Egyptian temples are used as libraries and observatories.
What then are the Greeks supposed to have stolen from the Egyptians? Are there any texts in existence that be found to verify the claim that Greek philosophy was stolen from Egypt? How was the "transfer" of Egyptian materials to Greece accomplished? If we examine what James says about the way in which the "transfer" was supposed to have been carried out, we will find that that few or no historical data can be summoned to support it. In fact, in order to construct his argument, James overlooked or ignored much existing evidence.
Did Aristotle raid the Library at Alexandria?
Aristotle.gif
No ancient source says that Alexander and Aristotle raided the Library at Alexandria. That they do not do so is not surprising, because it is unlikely that Aristotle ever went there. Aristotle was Alexander's tutor when Alexander was young, but he did not accompany him on his military campaign. Even if he had gone there, it is hard to see how he could have stolen books from the library in Alexandria. Although Alexandria was founded in 331 BC, it did not begin to function as a city until after 323. Aristotle died in 322. The library was assembled around 297 under the direction of Demetrius of Phaleron, a pupil of Aristotle's. Most of the books it contained were in Greek.
Did Aristotle plagiarize Egyptian sources?
If Aristotle had stolen his ideas from the Egyptians, as James asserts, James should be able to provide parallel Egyptian and Greek texts showing frequent verbal correspondences. As it is, he can only come up with a vague similarity between two titles. One is Aristotle's treatise On the Soul, and the other the modern English name of a collection of Egyptian texts, The Book of the Dead. These funerary texts, which the Egyptians themselves called the Book of Coming Forth by Day, are designed to protect the soul during its dangerous journey through Duat, the Egyptian underworld, on its way to life of bliss in the Field of Reeds. Both Aristotle and the Egyptians believed in the notion of a "soul." But there the similarity ends. Even a cursory glance at a translation of the Book of the Dead reveals that it is not a philosophical treatise, but rather a series of ritual prescriptions to ensure the soul's passage to the next world. It is completely different from Aristotle's abstract consideration of the nature of the soul. James fails to mention that the two texts cannot be profitably compared, because their aims and methods are so different. Instead, he accounts for the discrepancy by claiming that Aristotle's theory is only a "very small portion" of the Egyptian "philosophy" of the soul, as described in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. On that basis, one could claim that any later writer plagiarized from any earlier writer who touched on the same subject. But why not assume instead that the later writer was influenced by the earlier writer, or even came up with the some of the same ideas independently, especially if those ideas are widespread, like the notion that human beings have souls?
James also alleges that Aristotle's theory of matter was taken from the so-called Memphite Theology. The Memphite Theology is a religious document inscribed on a stone tablet by Egyptian priests in the eighth century BC, but said to have been copied from an ancient papyrus. The archaic language of the text suggests that the original dates from sometime in the second millennium BC. According to James, Aristotle took from the Memphite theology his doctrine that matter, motion, and time are eternal, along with the principle of opposites, and the concept of the unmoved mover. James does not say how Aristotle would have known about this inscription, which was at the time located in Memphis and not in the Library of Alexandria, or explain how he would have been able to read it. But even if Aristotle had had some way of finding out about it, he would have had no use for it in his philosophical writings. The Memphis text, like the Egyptian Book of the Dead, is a work of a totally different character from any of Aristotle's treatises.
The Memphite text describes the creation of the world as then known (that is, Upper and Lower Egypt). It relates how Ptah's mind (or "heart") and thought (or "tongue") created the universe and all living creatures in it: "for every word of the god came about through what the heart devised and the tongue commanded." From one of his manifestations, the primordial waters of chaos, the sun-god Atum was born. When Ptah has finished creating the universe, he rests from his labors: "Ptah was satisfied after he had made all things and all divine words."
In form and in substance this account has virtually nothing in common with Aristotle's abstract theology. In fact, in Metaphysics Book 11, Aristotle discards the traditional notion of a universe that is created by a divinity or divinities, in favor of a metaphysical argument. If there is eternal motion, there is eternal substance, and behind that, an immaterial and eternal source of activity, whose existence can be deduced from the eternal circular motion of the heavens. The source of this activity is what is called in English translation the "unmoved mover."All that this theory has in common with the Memphite theology is a concern with creation of the universe. On the same insubstantial basis, it would be possible to argue that Aristotle stole his philosophy from the story of creation in the first book of Genesis.


Source:

Not Out of Africa - Mary Lefkowitz
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
Also, I will not let lies spread around here. Too much misinformation has infected this thread.

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Hindu Algebra[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] The successors of the Greeks in the history of mathematics were the Hindus of India. Their record in mathematics dates from about 800 B.C., but became significant only after influenced by Greek achievements. Most Hindu mathematics was motivated by astronomy and astrology. A base ten, positional notation system was standard by 600 A.D. They treated zero as a number and discussed operations involving this number.
The Hindus introduced negative numbers to represent debts. The first known use is by Brahmagupta about 628. Bhaskara (b. 1114) recognized that a positive number has two square roots. The Hindus also developed correct procedures for operating with irrational numbers.
They made progress in algebra as well as arithmetic. They developed some symbolism which, though not extensive, was enough to classify Hindu algebra as almost symbolic and certainly more so than the syncopated algebra of Diophantus. Only the steps in the solutions of problems were stated; no reasons or proofs accompanied them.
The Hindus recognized that quadratic equations have two roots, and included negative as well as irrational roots. They could not, however, solve all quadratics since they did not recognize square roots of negative numbers as numbers. In indeterminate equations the Hindus advanced beyond Diophantus. Aryabhata (b. 476) obtained whole number solutions to ax ± by = c by a method equivalent to the modern method. They also considered indeterminate quadratic equations.


source:

Highlights in the History of Algebra[/FONT]
 
Joined Sep 2010
10,810 Posts | 50+
Serbia
Last edited:
As I was saying before I was rudely interupted,yesterday I got back from shopping-spree,arms full of bags of clothes and all those other small (un)neccessities.I got a great Louis Vuitton bag,sexy Stella Mccartney Boots,Manolo Blahnik shoes,Versace dress and so much more.

I must say I am very satisfied.I will keep you informed on my next adventures and escapades in this exciting activity called shopping.














:cool:
Alcibiades
 
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
Several references in Indian literature praise the knowledge of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanas"]Yavanas[/ame] or the Greeks.
The [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata"]Mahabharata[/ame] compliments them as "the all-knowing Yavanas" (sarvajnaa yavanaa) i.e. "The Yavanas, O king, are all-knowing; the Suras are particularly so. The [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mleccha"]mlecchas[/ame] are wedded to the creations of their own fancy."[14] and the creators of flying machines that are generally called [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimanas"]vimanas[/ame].[12]
The "Brihat-Samhita" of the mathematician [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira"]Varahamihira[/ame] says: "The [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks"]Greeks[/ame], though impure, must be honored since they were trained in sciences and therein, excelled others....." .[15]
Yet another Indian text, (Gargi-Samhita), also similarly compliments the Yavanas saying: "The Yavanas are barbarians yet the science of astronomy originated with them and for this they must be revered like gods".[16]


[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_civilization]Hellenistic civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
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