Hitler, Stalin, Mao - who killed more?

okay a quick google and here's a guy discussing exactly this.

Twentieth Century Atlas - Most Evil Dictator

It comes down to whether you count indirect deaths (starvation due to Mao's policies), or due to war (Hitler started WW2, so do you count everyone who died because of that?), or direct deliberate murder.

So... have a look at the numbers and pick the winner that you put money on.

gregorian said:

okay a quick google and here's a guy discussing exactly this.

Twentieth Century Atlas - Most Evil Dictator

It comes down to whether you count indirect deaths (starvation due to Mao's policies), or due to war (Hitler started WW2, so do you count everyone who died because of that?), or direct deliberate murder.

So... have a look at the numbers and pick the winner that you put money on.

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This is straight to the point. Good job!

The numbers change depending on how you look at it. Sure Mao killed more people than the other two but he never intended for it to happen. His policies looked great on paper but when it was implemented, officials within the bureaucracy started messing it up (reporting fake quotas, etc.).

The numbers change depending on how you look at it. Sure Mao killed more people than the other two but he never intended for it to happen. His policies looked great on paper but when it was implemented, officials within the bureaucracy started messing it up (reporting fake quotas, etc.).

Click to expand...

Even if we count the numbers in the GLF, the statistics are just speculation. It's usually calculated by death rate, in which the census during the era is iffy at best. Plus, it's questionable whether death rate should be used to calculate the number of people killed in the first place. Death rate is a very, very, very broad variable which would include a whole list of factors, not just government policy. The problem lies in that they didn't record every death/the cause of death, nor could they have inputted everything into a computer to process, as it would be impossible to count everything by hand. So what we're left with is the death rate, an entirely unreliable variable for calculating the direct effects of government policy. Whatever result you get from the death rate can at best be seen as a guesstimate.

Stalin and Mao share the final line with miliseconds...

But who's the Sexiest?

Stalin's got the hair and the big bushy mo, but Mao has those round faced baby good looks.
Sorry Hitler but that little nose-mustache was never sexy.

What about Pol Pot? Because we all know, it's not the evil in the dictator, but rather how many people the dictator could effect with his evil.

Pol Pot and the Marxist Ideal


Wait a second. If two out of three of these evils greatest are Marxists. Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were Marxist, right?

Maybe this is the most evil man of them all?



In any event. My vote goes to Hitler. He was clearly the most destructive force to ever hit the planet. (With the exception of Marx perhaps)


The WWII Death Toll is 62,171,400 to 78,511,500

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Total_Deaths

So, while not all the deaths can be directly attributed to Hitler and the Nazis, maybe it is safe to say the majority of them would not have occurred without them?


[EDIT]

I could be wrong though... Some are claiming upwards of 61 Million deaths accountable to Stalin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_k...imes#States_where_mass_killings_have_occurred

"The published results vary depending on the time when the estimate was made, on the criteria and methods used for the estimates, and sources available for estimates. Some historians attempt to make separate estimates for different periods of the Soviet history, with casualties for the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinist"]Stalinist[/ame] period varying from 8 to 61 million"

For me Stalin and the other commies are the worst as they essentially tried to destroy nations. Tartars, Greeks, Sogdians, Chechens, Ingush, Poles. The list goes on and on.

Karl Marx was a crack-pot. The man lived off the money of Frederich Engels. He was a lazy drunk, yet somehow he managed to shape the last 150 years of world history, destroying nations with his idiotic ideals...

What an excellent man. Let us contribute the millions of deaths throughout the world suffered at the hands of communist-related policies and wars to this, one Kar Marx. I do in fact like this idea

A widely recognized authority on the subject, R.J.Rummel, discusses the subject in his book, Death by Government.
From the title page:
II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS

III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS

mingming said:

This is straight to the point. Good job!

The numbers change depending on how you look at it. Sure Mao killed more people than the other two but he never intended for it to happen. His policies looked great on paper but when it was implemented, officials within the bureaucracy started messing it up (reporting fake quotas, etc.).

Click to expand...

It is silly to condemn bureaucracy in Stalin's and Mao's crime.People systematically exterminated in the all spans of his ruling, and It was impossible without their direct participation.

Pavel said:

It is silly to condemn bureaucracy in Stalin's and Mao's crime.People systematically exterminated in the all spans of his ruling, and It was impossible without their direct participation.

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Right, let's blame the entire Russian people because they were just as murderous, sick, and remorseless as Stalin.

Mandate of Heaven said:

Right, let's blame the entire Russian people because they were just as murderous, sick, and remorseless as Stalin.

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I implied, that all these dictators organized purges and carnages in their countries , a I can't rely on, that your sarcasm is pertinent.

Besides, I must point out, that I met some opinions on this thread, which as far from the truth ,as commie's opinion, that Stalin was staid and kind.It is hard to estimate quantity of Stalin's victims.WWII and harsh life of humble people perished many lives.Records retained data about 0.5 million victims.I reckon ,that quantity of killed victims not more than 5 millions.You need to know, that population of USSR enhanced in years of Stalin's ruling (for whole periods).Although many people were in custody in Gulag.But it is no evidence ,that Stalin is the most bloody dictator in the earth.He deserves to align with Hitler, Mao,Pol Pot, but it is reckless , to allege, that he is the worst

JoeGlidden said:

Karl Marx was a crack-pot. The man lived off the money of Frederich Engels. He was a lazy drunk, yet somehow he managed to shape the last 150 years of world history, destroying nations with his idiotic ideals...

What an excellent man. Let us contribute the millions of deaths throughout the world suffered at the hands of communist-related policies and wars to this, one Kar Marx. I do in fact like this idea

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I am not a Marxist.

/Karl Marx

JoeGlidden said:

Karl Marx was a crack-pot. The man lived off the money of Frederich Engels. He was a lazy drunk, yet somehow he managed to shape the last 150 years of world history, destroying nations with his idiotic ideals...

What an excellent man. Let us contribute the millions of deaths throughout the world suffered at the hands of communist-related policies and wars to this, one Kar Marx. I do in fact like this idea

Click to expand...

You can't blame Marx for the crimes of Communists. In he's mind Communism was going to liberate the from the oppression and suffering. The Vanguard party, which lead to the Bureaucracy was not even invented by him

Can't blame Marx for anything. Communism if implemented correctly would be a utopia, sadly that will never be possible.

mingming said:

Can't blame Marx for anything. Communism if implemented correctly would be a utopia, sadly that will never be possible.

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In the Communist Manifesto, Marx essentially says that democracy is an impossibility, and dictatorship a necessity. Unless you strictly interpret his "dictatorship of the proletariat" as a metaphor, you must say most of his disciples remained faithful to the core ideals, although of course he wouldn't approve of any of them. Marx wasn't a marxist, simply. Howerver, as much as Communism seems a utopia, it doesn't mean it'll cause anything but pain when realized. Just because a description of what the world could be doesn't include goblins, witchcraft and palaces of gold for everyone doesn't make it more likely. Too many have failed to read Burke and get his essential point here

mingming said:

Can't blame Marx for anything. Communism if implemented correctly would be a utopia, sadly that will never be possible.

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Did Marx include anything in his manifesto regarding mechanised farming, robotic servants, super computer hive minds?

Probably not.

Maybe he was a little bit of an ego-maniacal revolutionary?


Millions of people died trying to implement his ideologies. Considering Communism is supposed to unite the proletariat, they sure couldn't save their own lives when all was said and done.

Marx might have very well killed more people than anyone else in history.


But he sure is "Sexy"

I mean there isn't a single dreamer who isn't attracted to his utopia. It just makes sense to everybody.

Chancellor said:

Unless you strictly interpret his "dictatorship of the proletariat" as a metaphor

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Considering he was of the bourgeois class himself, perhaps it was nothing more than a misfired political campaign slogan?

Maybe people give the guy too much credit.

Maybe he was just crazy?

I have not read the history of his career, but perhaps he would taken office if given the chance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx#Cologne:_1848-1849


I am not studied on the Cultural Revolutions, or the Gang of Four, but these were hardcore propagandists, were they not? Somewhere between a liberator class, imposing absolute chaos, in an attempt to gain power?

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Four"]Gang of Four - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]




Here is another death toll, from a French book, The Black Book of Communism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism#Contents

• 65 million in the People's Republic of China
• 20 million in the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union"]Soviet Union[/ame][3]
• 2 million in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia"]Cambodia[/ame]
• 2 million in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea"]North Korea[/ame]
• 1.7 million in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa"]Africa[/ame]
• 1.5 million in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan"]Afghanistan[/ame]
• 1 million in the Communist states of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc"]Eastern Europe[/ame]
• 1 million in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam"]Vietnam[/ame][4]
• 150,000 in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America"]Latin America[/ame]
• 10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."(p. 4)

Oddly enough, someone published a Black Book of Capitalism, in response to the the

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Livre_Noir_du_Capitalisme"]Le Livre Noir du Capitalisme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


"An appendix provides an incomplete list of 20th century death tolls which Perrault attributes to the capitalist system. The list, which includes both combatant and noncombatant dead, includes an estimated 58 million dead from the First and Second World Wars, plus death tolls from various colonial wars, anticommunist wars and repressions, ethnic conflicts, and some victims of famines or malnutrition,which brings the incomplete list to a combined total of about 100 million deaths attributed to capitalism in the 20th century."

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I find it hard to believe that one book can claim that Communism as a Government caused deaths through famine, and such, then another claims that Communists were never engaged in war.

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I think Capitalism wins as a Government or Ideology.

I might not include military campaigns, whether they be in defense, or offensive campaigns as an indication of bad government structure. You can't blame a communist government for not being more prepared from a military perspective. Which was the case with Russia in WWII, and you can't blame a country like Britain or France for entering war against an aggressor like Germany.

Chancellor said:

In the Communist Manifesto, Marx essentially says that democracy is an impossibility, and dictatorship a necessity. Unless you strictly interpret his "dictatorship of the proletariat" as a metaphor, you must say most of his disciples remained faithful to the core ideals, although of course he wouldn't approve of any of them. Marx wasn't a marxist, simply. Howerver, as much as Communism seems a utopia, it doesn't mean it'll cause anything but pain when realized. Just because a description of what the world could be doesn't include goblins, witchcraft and palaces of gold for everyone doesn't make it more likely. Too many have failed to read Burke and get his essential point here

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No he never. Marx said ''Democracy is the road to socialism.''. Thomas Jefferson was against Democracy, was he a Dictator?

The Proletariat is the whole working class, not one person or small group. How is that Dictatorship? Under capitalism it is the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, so when the Socialist revolution is won it becomes ''The Dictatorship of the Proletariat'', meaning that the working class is in power.