Is Turkey becoming a puppet of USA?

monsieurdl · Apr 7, 2012

Ayazid said:
Who are those radical religious fanatics who try to drive a wedge between Turkey and your country? Please, don't that tell me that you mean the AKP. Honestly, I am no expert on radical Turkish islamism, it doesn't seem to be a really significant force, so I hope that you could enlighten us.

With actions like this, which are counter to Ataturk, it is obvious to me. Turks should be afraid of what could happen when laws like this are passed. This is precisely why Ataturk wanted Turkey to remain secular. Erdogan just does not get it- it is not about electives, but about where all of this leads... it is a very dangerous beginning.

Ataturk would be extremely dissapointed and upset:

Another CHP Deputy Chairman, Engin Altay, said that the AK Party and the MHP violated the Constitution. He addressed the deputies of the two parties, saying, “You are committing a crime against the Constitution today.” CHP Sivas deputy Malik Ejder Özdemir said in protest that the proposal is contrary to the principle of secularism in the Constitution and added: “Today is a historic day: now they can say we [the AK Party and the MHP] abolished the republic and declared Turkey a caliphate again.”
Speaking to the press about the article during his return to Turkey from Iran early on Friday, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan criticized the protest of the Confederation of Public Sector Trade Unions (KESK) against the bill on Thursday, in which police and KESK members clashed and police used water cannons and tear gas against the KESK members. Erdoğan said education on the Quran and the Prophet will be given as elective and not compulsory courses, adding, “anybody who doesn't want to attend such courses has the choice not to attend them. We won't force the KESK members or their children to attend these courses. Why are they showing such reactions against the article then?”

THE DAILY STAR :: News :: Middle East :: Erdogan: Turkey firmly supports Iran

sturm · Apr 7, 2012

monsieurdl said:
I'll tell you why Erdogan is standing up for Iran:

THE DAILY STAR :: News :: Middle East :: Erdogan: Turkey firmly supports Iran

And well done to Turkey for this.
While Turkey continues to get Iranian oil, countries such as mine that suck up to the US, are also limiting or stopping import of iranian law, and I the common citizen who doesn't care for nuclear weapons, pay sky high prizes for fuel, and everything is getting expensive, with each rise of the oil prices here the inflation rises up with at least 1%.

monsieurdl · Apr 7, 2012

sturm said:
And well done to Turkey for this.
While Turkey continues to get Iranian oil, countries such as mine that suck up to the US, are also limiting or stopping import of iranian law, and I the common citizen who doesn't care for nuclear weapons, pay sky high prizes for fuel, and everything is getting expensive, with each rise of the oil prices here the inflation rises up with at least 1%.

Sounds like foreign dependence on oil is the problem to me, as it is with us. You think you are the only one with skyrocketing oil prices?

Small price to pay for a curbing of Iranian nuclear ambitions, and maybe just maybe we'll FINALLY rid ourselves of the dependence. I'd rather have that than a nuclear war in the Middle East and beyond. I don't want us to pull a Chamberlain with countries like Iran and allow them to hoodwink the West into thinking they are peaceful when they are anything but. Didn't we learn this lesson in 1936 and 1938?

sturm · Apr 7, 2012

monsieurdl said:
Small price to pay for a curbing of Iranian nuclear ambitions, and maybe just maybe we'll FINALLY rid ourselves of the dependence.

Here is when i will advice you to speak only for yourself, because for me it is a big price.

monsieurdl said:
I'd rather have that than a nuclear war in the Middle East and beyond

When the US show the same standards towards Israel and Pakistan (countries possessing nuclear weapons and countries that were involved in many conflicts since the end of World war 2) then i will stand behind the US opinion on this and say that Iran should stop developing nuclear weapons, if in fact they actually do, because let us not forget that Saddam also was supposed to have WMD's.

monsieurdl · Apr 7, 2012

sturm said:
Here is when i will advice you to speak only for yourself, because for me it is a big price.

In 2009, over 30% was added to your gasoline price by the Bulgarian government, as compared to 16% by the United States government here. It is not our fault your government has decided to take out a pound of flesh from your people.

When the US show the same standards towards Israel and Pakistan (countries possessing nuclear weapons and countries that were involved in many conflicts since the end of World war 2) then i will stand behind the US opinion on this and say that Iran should stop developing nuclear weapons, if in fact they actually do, because let us not forget that Saddam also was supposed to have WMD's.

Iran has threatened the West so many times that, unlike Pakistan, we would be insane to give Iran the chance to develop these weapons.

Israel is a subject that I cannot talk about- I completely disagree with our hypocritical stance when it comes to them.

As far the WMDs and the war, I was against that as well... it was a completely bogus war that you have me on.

2 out of 3 I'll give you... not bad.

Ayazid · Apr 7, 2012

monsieurdl said:
With actions like this, which are counter to Ataturk, it is obvious to me. Turks should be afraid of what could happen when laws like this are passed. This is precisely why Ataturk wanted Turkey to remain secular. Erdogan just does not get it- it is not about electives, but about where all of this leads... it is a very dangerous beginning.

Ataturk would be extremely dissapointed and upset:

THE DAILY STAR :: News :: Middle East :: Erdogan: Turkey firmly supports Iran

You could have been so kind and present the context too. If you really think that everything what contradicts Atatürk's policies qualifies as "radical islamism", than I find meaningless to discuss this topic with you at all. Also, an elective course on the Quran and the life of the Prophet Muhammad in Turkish schools can be hardly interpreted as a "declaration of the caliphate".

As for the second article about Iran, Turkey has been playing a delicate geo-political game, but it's clear that its interest differ from those of the Shia regime in Iran. Its stance toward the Syrian rebellion is a good example of that. I hope you don't think that Turkey under the AKP and Iran are going to create some kind of an islamist anti-USA alliance.

Just two words, monsieur: Saudi Arabia

monsieurdl · Apr 7, 2012

Ayazid said:
You could have been so kind and present the context too. If you really think that everything what contradicts Atatürk's policies qualifies as "radical islamism", than I find meaningless to discuss this topic with you at all. Also, an elective course on the Quran and the life of the Prophet Muhammad in Turkish schools can be hardly interpreted as a "declaration of the caliphate".

You have me at a disadvantage here, because I cannot prove that it will result in radical Islam in Turkey. However, the law does go against his secular vision and could be interpreted as unconstitutional- that I will not concede.

Ayazid said:
As for the second article about Iran, Turkey has been playing a delicate geo-political game, but it's clear that its interest differ from those of the Shia regime in Iran. Its stance toward the Syrian rebellion is a good example of that. I hope you don't think that Turkey under the AKP and Iran are going to create some kind of an islamist anti-USA alliance.

Just two words, monsieur: Saudi Arabia

No, I don't have that fear. Erdogan is protecting the oil imports from Iran, that I can see. He has impressed me with his comments over Assad's regime, to be sure, a far cry from his usual comments. I never expected him to take Syria to task over their actions- maybe he fears a massive Syrian exodus in the future over the border?

You're lucky- I have a realistic view of the Middle East and can discuss it with little problems. Many Americans unfortunately have never been near the region and have a distorted view of it. We're on an island, even in this age of communications... and our news networks don't help that.

dagul · Apr 7, 2012

Although Islam is the major religion of Turkey and has close ties with the Middle Eastern countries, but its western root runs deep in its culture and so its people have good understanding of democracy and thus it have compromises with western nations like the US and the UK. It is just working what's best for its interests.

sturm · Apr 8, 2012

monsieurdl said:
In 2009, over 30% was added to your gasoline price by the Bulgarian government, as compared to 16% by the United States government here. It is not our fault your government has decided to take out a pound of flesh from your people.

How exactly was it added by the Bulgarian government?
Bulgaria is a free market economy, there are oil companies that are rising the price of fuel/gas, when the price rises troughout the world. The only thing that the government manages is VAT (value added tax) which is around 20%, which for the European Union is average.

When the war with Iraq started, the price of gas went up a lot, now if a war with Iran is started the price will go skyhigh to an extend that driving a car would be a luxury, public transport's ticket will also rise, some products too.
So i say again well done to Turkey for continuing discussions with Iran and buying oil from there, so that the people of Turkey don't suffer the same fate as we will, the fate of a real puppet to America (one of many) - Bulgaria.

monsieurdl said:
Iran has threatened the West so many times that, unlike Pakistan, we would be insane to give Iran the chance to develop these weapons.

When did Iran threatened the west? Except the country that threatens Iran too - Israel?

Lazyman · Apr 8, 2012

Its the other way around actually, Iran gets a constitutional monarchy under a progessive ruler, and he gets deposed, they get an actual democratic govt? He too gets deposed .

monsieurdl · Apr 8, 2012

sturm said:
How exactly was it added by the Bulgarian government?
Bulgaria is a free market economy, there are oil companies that are rising the price of fuel/gas, when the price rises troughout the world. The only thing that the government manages is VAT (value added tax) which is around 20%, which for the European Union is average.

Wrong. I'm not going to say it unless it is true; I'm not going to lie to you, sturm. Bulgaria adds an excise tax, completely independent of VAT, on unleaded gasoline to the price per liter (363 euros per 1,000 liters in 2011/.363 euros a liter, or $1.30 a gallon (3.6 liters approx) for the American posters), as per this:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom.../excise_duties-part_ii_energy_products_en.pdf

sturm said:
When the war with Iraq started, the price of gas went up a lot, now if a war with Iran is started the price will go skyhigh to an extend that driving a car would be a luxury, public transport's ticket will also rise, some products too.
So i say again well done to Turkey for continuing discussions with Iran and buying oil from there, so that the people of Turkey don't suffer the same fate as we will, the fate of a real puppet to America (one of many) - Bulgaria.

When did Iran threatened the west? Except the country that threatens Iran too - Israel?

And so you would rather buy your gasoline from a country that calls for death to countries, wants to close the Strait of Hormuz, and has a poor human rights record? I'd rather put my faith in countries that offer peace and stability, or rid ourselves of the dependence, than yoke myself to Iran.

Good luck with that.

sturm · Apr 8, 2012

monsieurdl said:
And so you would rather buy your gasoline from a country that calls for death to countries, wants to close the Strait of Hormuz, and has a poor human rights record? I'd rather put my faith in countries that offer peace and stability, or rid ourselves of the dependence, than yoke myself to Iran.

First you didn't show me when did Iran threatened the west exactly?

You cannot comprehend how much hypocrisy have you written in one post. The US receives gasoline from countries such as Saudi Arabia in which someone can be executed for witchcraft (yes in 21th century).

Gasoline is the same wherever it came from. Iran is a sovereign country, I can disagree with there policies, but that doesn't mean i have to interfere, to impose the government system of my country to them. In the same way i disagree that in some of your states, there is a death penalty.

"Pecunia non olet" (money does not stink) said the roman emperor Vespasian, when he held a coin received from the urine tax he imposed.

monsieurdl · Apr 8, 2012

sturm said:
First you didn't show me when did Iran threatened the west exactly?

You cannot comprehend how much hypocrisy have you written in one post. The US receives gasoline from countries such as Saudi Arabia in which someone can be executed for witchcraft (yes in 21th century).

"Death to Israel, Death to the United States" is routine within the halls of government in Iran- this is known by almost everyone, I guess. You don't ever remember Ahmadinejad threatening closure of the Strait of Hormuz?

I don't WANT oil from Saudi Arabia, but you'd accept it in a heartbeat is where we differ because to you as long as it is cheap, it is OK. I am getting this from your casual attitude about Iranian oil and how Turkey should get it from them- not making it up,

sturm said:
Gasoline is the same wherever it came from. Iran is a sovereign country, I can disagree with there policies, but that doesn't mean i have to interfere, to impose the government system of my country to them. In the same way i disagree that in some of your states, there is a death penalty.

"Pecunia non olet" (money does not stink) said the roman emperor Vespasian, when he held a coin received from the urine tax he imposed.

You just said earlier that:

While Turkey continues to get Iranian oil, countries such as mine that suck up to the US

If gasoline is the same wherever it comes from, why are you worried about Bulgaria sucking up to the US, and you get your gasoline from Russia? I am SO glad you admit by your silence that I was right about Bulgaria adding the tax to your price of gasoline.

We import 88% of our gasoline from other countries, and so I sincerely doubt that we have to have countries "suck up" to us; that's funny.

sturm · Apr 8, 2012

monsieurdl said:
We import 88% of our gasoline from other countries, and so I sincerely doubt that we have to have countries "suck up" to us; that's funny.

Yes we do suck up to you and i will explain why.
First of all Bulgaria broke many energy projects with Russia, including the most recent one the Belene nuclear power plant, other is the Burgas-Alexandrupolis pipeline. Those were two major projects for Russia, that were stopped by Bulgaria in view of its pro-western interests. Even though exactly about the Belene project, one of the nuclear reactors is nearly completed and was already paid for, however, now Turkey most likely will buy it and finish it up, to put the russian reactor without a problem to there own new russian built nuclear power plant.
About the gasoline from Russia, it is imported from there because quite frankly there isn't anywhere else to get it from with the current situation.

monsieurdl said:
I am SO glad you admit by your silence that I was right about Bulgaria adding the tax to your price of gasoline.

Yes i admit that i didn't know about this added tax by the government, the fact of the matter however stays that the gas is expensive for me, which was my original point.

monsieurdl said:
"Death to Israel, Death to the United States" is routine within the halls of government in Iran- this is known by almost everyone, I guess. You don't ever remember Ahmadinejad threatening closure of the Strait of Hormuz?

Your once again unable to point me out where exactly Iran threatened the west.
As for the Strait of Hormuz, if somebody is threatened there it is exactly Iran because it is the US that has a navy in there, a couple of thousend kilometers from your own country. Iran doesn't have a fleet near the US, but the US has a fleet near Iran, so who is threaten by whom?

monsieurdl said:
I don't WANT oil from Saudi Arabia, but you'd accept it in a heartbeat is where we differ because to you as long as it is cheap, it is OK. I am getting this from your casual attitude about Iranian oil and how Turkey should get it from them- not making it up,

The difference is that i don't see anything wrong that Iran does on the political stage so to brand it as an "evil". I quite frankly am not afraid of there nuclear program i don't feel threatened by them. Yesterday you were threatened by Afghanistan, or by Iraq, today it is Iran, who's next?

monsieurdl · Apr 8, 2012

sturm said:
Yes we do suck up to you and i will explain why.
First of all Bulgaria broke many energy projects with Russia, including the most recent one the Belene nuclear power plant, other is the Burgas-Alexandrupolis pipeline. Those were two major projects for Russia, that were stopped by Bulgaria in view of its pro-western interests. Even though exactly about the Belene project, one of the nuclear reactors is nearly completed and was already paid for, however, now Turkey most likely will buy it and finish it up, to put the russian reactor without a problem to there own new russian built nuclear power plant.
About the gasoline from Russia, it is imported from there because quite frankly there isn't anywhere else to get it from with the current situation.

Why did you all break your commitments with Russia? Just curious.

sturm said:
Yes i admit that i didn't know about this added tax by the government, the fact of the matter however stays that the gas is expensive for me, which was my original point.

Good. Sorry if I sounded bad in that last statement... sometimes I get carried away and I don't mean to sound condescending. Europe really taxes the heck out of gasoline.

sturm said:
Your once again unable to point me out where exactly Iran threatened the west.
As for the Strait of Hormuz, if somebody is threatened there it is exactly Iran because it is the US that has a navy in there, a couple of thousend kilometers from your own country. Iran doesn't have a fleet near the US, but the US has a fleet near Iran, so who is threaten by whom?

I did, but I'll explain. Hormuz is a key point for all trade from the Persian Gulf. For Iran to threaten it is a very, very serious threat that must be answered by the West. Our Navy presence there is not a coincidence.

sturm said:
The difference is that i don't see anything wrong that Iran does on the political stage so to brand it as an "evil". I quite frankly am not afraid of there nuclear program i don't feel threatened by them. Yesterday you were threatened by Afghanistan, or by Iraq, today it is Iran, who's next?

I was against action in Iraq.

Afghanistan occurred because we thought Osama bin Laden was there, but of course two-faced Pakistan was hiding him the whole time it seems.

Point is, our intelligence is absolute crap... and it has to be intentionally bad. You'll never see me defend some of our policies that I find odious and idiotic.

Iran to me is one of the largest threats to world peace right now, because they are insistent upon their ideals of the Revolution being THE ONLY ones capable of ruling over people, and they will do anything to preserve it- anything.

sturm · Apr 8, 2012

monsieurdl said:
Why did you all break your commitments with Russia? Just curious.

Unfortunately often i don't know the exact reasons for my government decisions. Initially Bulgaria wants desertification, and we don't want to rely so much on Russian gas, but have other options too. The European Union in general wants to find additional sources of gasoline, not only from Russia, but from other countries as well.

monsieurdl said:
Good. Sorry if I sounded bad in that last statement... sometimes I get carried away and I don't mean to sound condescending. Europe really taxes the heck out of gasoline.

No need for apologize but thanks, you were right to correct me about the fuel tax.

monsieurdl said:
I did, but I'll explain. Hormuz is a key point for all trade from the Persian Gulf. For Iran to threaten it is a very, very serious threat that must be answered by the West. Our Navy presence there is not a coincidence.

But the presence of the US navy there predates the iranian nuclear program, i mean there was a US navy and even incidents during the 80's.

monsieurdl said:
I was against action in Iraq.

Afghanistan occurred because we thought Osama bin Laden was there, but of course two-faced Pakistan was hiding him the whole time it seems.

Point is, our intelligence is absolute crap... and it has to be intentionally bad. You'll never see me defend some of our policies that I find odious and idiotic.

Iran to me is one of the largest threats to world peace right now, because they are insistent upon their ideals of the Revolution being THE ONLY ones capable of ruling over people, and they will do anything to preserve it- anything.

I understand here, and i congratulate you on this position, not looking at things as white and black. Some actions are positive other leads to negativity.

About Iran posing a threat.. the problem is i heard the same argument for Iraq and other countries as well, it is only natural to be suspicious. The problem is that as long and as much as the western armies are interfering with politics in the region of the middle east, newer and newer enemies rise up, more and more people are dying from all sides, and quite frankly i don't see results.

Lazyman · Apr 8, 2012

The hypocrisy...oh the hypocrisy....

pnoozi · Apr 8, 2012

koseku said:
First, sorry for bad english. The thing i want to ask is, my country, Turkey going very different side of world. I mean, Erdoğan changed many things in Turkey, some people says we are selling our territories to USA and UK, which makes us a puppet of them; some says we are getting stronger and a better economy but im really confused, are we becoming really strong or just be showed like that

Turkey has been an ally of the United States for a long time (since the Cold War), and has generally acted accordingly. But I wouldn't say that they are simply a puppet of the United States. They have had positive relations with Syria (Iran's strongest ally in the region) until recently, and have had negative relations with Israel (America's strongest ally in the region). So clearly we see Turkey has a significant degree of autonomy.

Panthera tigris altaica · Apr 8, 2012

sturm said:
First you didn't show me when did Iran threatened the west exactly?

You cannot comprehend how much hypocrisy have you written in one post. The US receives gasoline from countries such as Saudi Arabia in which someone can be executed for witchcraft (yes in 21th century).

I hate to break this to you, but, ummm... the US gets the majority to most of it's gas from our part of the hemisphere. Europe and Asia on the other hand...

Efendi · Apr 8, 2012

Additionally, Turkey also refused to provide logistic support to US during invassion of Iraq, which would be far less costly for US to attack from north side.

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