Joined May 2011
15,791 Posts | 1,621+
Navan, Ireland
Not familiar enough to comment on Japanese weapons and a vote for the 'Welsh' Longbow would be on national bias only.
Suspect the Archer would be very important.
Suspect the Archer would be very important.
Joined Oct 2009
831 Posts | 0+
Ontario, Canada
I'll second that it depends more on the archer. As far as I know, power is mostly about draw weight. And the draw weight only matters if the archer has the strength to draw it.
The Japanese bow is superior on horseback though. There is at least one account of the longbow being used on horseback but I suspect that the success of the endeavor on that occasion was due to the shock of the attack rather then deadly aim.
The Japanese bow is superior on horseback though. There is at least one account of the longbow being used on horseback but I suspect that the success of the endeavor on that occasion was due to the shock of the attack rather then deadly aim.
Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
I'm not a weapons buff, so I don't know enough about the technical aspects of each weapon to comment on it, but it would seem to me that the effectiveness of a bow in the overall context of a battle comes down to numbers. The vast majority of Henry V's men were archers at Agincourt.
The samurai began life as mounted horse archers, thus making the weapon relatively restricted in use (to those who could afford the horses and training). I cannot vouch for the effectiveness of ashigaru archers. By the period that I am most familiar with, the bow had begun to be replaced by the arquebus, which requires a lot less training to use effectively (point & click).
I'd give this one to the longbow if it was on a battlefield. In a direct, one on one comparison, I wouldn't know.
Japanese horseback archery, or yabusame:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywRP725u11k&feature=fvwrel]YouTube - ‪Yabusame - Japanese Mounted Archery[/ame]
The daikyu (large bow) is used on horseback.
The samurai began life as mounted horse archers, thus making the weapon relatively restricted in use (to those who could afford the horses and training). I cannot vouch for the effectiveness of ashigaru archers. By the period that I am most familiar with, the bow had begun to be replaced by the arquebus, which requires a lot less training to use effectively (point & click).
I'd give this one to the longbow if it was on a battlefield. In a direct, one on one comparison, I wouldn't know.
Japanese horseback archery, or yabusame:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywRP725u11k&feature=fvwrel]YouTube - ‪Yabusame - Japanese Mounted Archery[/ame]
The daikyu (large bow) is used on horseback.
but honestly I do not know, I do not know enough there archery there to answer the question.
Joined Aug 2010
10,440 Posts | 17+
Wales
I would be interested to see some facts and figures concerning the relative 'powers' of the two bows.
My choice for baser reasons would go to the longbow, but I must confess relative ignorance on japanese archery.
My choice for baser reasons would go to the longbow, but I must confess relative ignorance on japanese archery.
Joined Apr 2008
7,924 Posts | 29+
Hyperborea
The main difference is draw weight. Japanese bows had a pull of around 30lb, so couldn't penetrate armour. This didn't stop them being the primary battlefield weapon of the samurai though. Japanese horses were unarmoured and most troops lightly armoured on the field. They were very effective for the warfare the way it was fought there.
English longbow had enourmous pull weights and were designed to engage heavily armoured troops, so designed for a different job. They were desgined for the European warfare conditions.
Arrow weight would be another factor, English archers used extremely heavy bodkins because they had to penetrate steel, so only had a quite short range of a few hundred metres. Japanese used lightweight arrows that could fly great distances but had little penetrating power.
Accuracy is more to do with the training of the archer than the bow. Both countries trained there archers to extremely high standards. However as with guns, a shot from a moving platform will always be less accurate than one from a stationary one.
English longbow had enourmous pull weights and were designed to engage heavily armoured troops, so designed for a different job. They were desgined for the European warfare conditions.
Arrow weight would be another factor, English archers used extremely heavy bodkins because they had to penetrate steel, so only had a quite short range of a few hundred metres. Japanese used lightweight arrows that could fly great distances but had little penetrating power.
Accuracy is more to do with the training of the archer than the bow. Both countries trained there archers to extremely high standards. However as with guns, a shot from a moving platform will always be less accurate than one from a stationary one.
Joined Jul 2009
6,478 Posts | 16+
Montreal, Canada
Joined Jun 2009
29,886 Posts | 49+
land of Califia
I have actually seen these as high as 70 lbs. This was a modern yumi mind you, so I don't know if that draw weight existed during the ages of warfare. Seeing as how they trained much more extensively than modern practitioners, I wouldn't be suprised if they had bows that powerful however.
Joined Dec 2009
5,641 Posts | 52+
Canada
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The draw strength is not overly important for arrows, when they are meant to be fired from a relatively close distance. A yumi with a 30 lb draw weight is capable at penetrating armour from a very close range.
However, given the nature of yoroi (samurai armour), they are relatively protective against piercing and slashing. Most war yumi that I have found have a draw weight of about 85-90 lbs.
Many modern bows are not designed for war, so it's hard to base it on that.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5VtVCQ7IpY&feature=sub"]YouTube - ‪Koshiya Tanshin‬‏[/ame]
Here's a video of a modern practitioner performing battlefield kyudo. I believe this particular style is known as Satsuma Heiki-Ryu (i.e. invented by those fierce and scary Satsuma warriors who came up with the Jigen-Ryu sword style.)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSxuQ5ahRJ4"]YouTube - ‪腰矢組弓‬‏[/ame]
Here's another of the same style, but done in a formation by a group (the lighting is not the greatest, since there's a glare. But it's decent enough).
However, given the nature of yoroi (samurai armour), they are relatively protective against piercing and slashing. Most war yumi that I have found have a draw weight of about 85-90 lbs.
Many modern bows are not designed for war, so it's hard to base it on that.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5VtVCQ7IpY&feature=sub"]YouTube - ‪Koshiya Tanshin‬‏[/ame]
Here's a video of a modern practitioner performing battlefield kyudo. I believe this particular style is known as Satsuma Heiki-Ryu (i.e. invented by those fierce and scary Satsuma warriors who came up with the Jigen-Ryu sword style.)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSxuQ5ahRJ4"]YouTube - ‪腰矢組弓‬‏[/ame]
Here's another of the same style, but done in a formation by a group (the lighting is not the greatest, since there's a glare. But it's decent enough).
Joined Jun 2009
29,886 Posts | 49+
land of Califia
That's definately equivalent to the longbow. With the longer Ya (arrows), it seems that the Yumi would pack more punch.
Does the shape of the Yumi affect its distance capabilities?
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it should be noted that the Yumi were dropped at a faster rate than the Longbows with the introduction of guns, however this might have a lot to do with the fact that England was relatively at peace during that period while Japan was in it's most war like era.
The Yumi also wasn't as widely particed as the English longbows in purportion to the population.
Also, it's questionable as to how much armour the French horses really had in the hundred years war, the manuscripts from the similar era almost always depict them as having no armour as well. Where as after the 100 years war English involvement in wars outside of the isles were limited for the remainder of the Longbow period.
The Yumi also wasn't as widely particed as the English longbows in purportion to the population.
Also, it's questionable as to how much armour the French horses really had in the hundred years war, the manuscripts from the similar era almost always depict them as having no armour as well. Where as after the 100 years war English involvement in wars outside of the isles were limited for the remainder of the Longbow period.
Joined Jun 2009
29,886 Posts | 49+
land of Califia
Joined Feb 2011
10,194 Posts | 3,839+
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Draw weights for infantry on foot could be quite high (it's usually around 100 lbs). A yumi/longbow could reach 500lb draw weight if they really wanted to. The problem is, no one would be able to draw it. The limitation for a bow's draw weight is not due to the design of the bow itself, but due to human muscle strength.
The exception would be the invention of ballistas. When a winch is added to the picture, humans really would be able to pull more than a bow could handle. There were workarounds. The Romans adopted torsion power, multiple bows/strings were used in East Asia, and late medieval Europe used steel bows.
Joined Dec 2009
5,641 Posts | 52+
Canada
I wouldn't say so, considering the fact that they are capable at shooting long range. But like most long range archery, these are specialized bows with extremely light arrows designed for going as far as can physically be done with said bow.
Even then, most commanders would not utilize long range archery while in battle. You're not as likely to kill or wound the other guy, and you're not as likely to hit them either. It becomes a waste of arrows.
The English War Bow was the first super weapon, used by commoners to kill the ruling class, the nobles. While the Japanese weapon was used by so called warriors who could not even win any battles outside their own country.
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