My Top 10 Greatest Western Military Commander of all time

Joined Jul 2024
408 Posts | 206+
Türkiye
I think Frederick is slightly overrated while Turenne is underrated, as capable as he was as a tactician, his stubbornness caused a 7 years war that drained Prussia of so much of it's manpower and ruined Prussia's economy for decades. So much so that Napoleon humiliated their armies and they were never the same as a fighting force until 1870.
Frederick was a good general and a great tactician, and he had a few extra challenges, but so did Turenne, and I don't think Turenne was tactically mediocre, but he was certainly good at it, even if it wasn't Turenne's best quality.
 
Joined Nov 2024
849 Posts | 967+
Hoboken, NJ
I'd take Heraclius over Belisarius and Gustav.
Over Gustav eh ? That good huh.
Well, his early career is quite crazy. He was destroying Roman armies like nothing. Above all, he was a great ambusher. He destroyed Roman armies in Italy, Perpenna in Spain, Mithridates VI and the Caucasus Albanians all through some absolutely brilliant ambushes. He also attempted to ambush Marcus Antonius. His victory at Dyrrachium was also brilliant. After Lauron, which was really the only bad moment in his career, he contended well with Sertorius, who was one of the best generals in Roman history, and coordinated with Metellus to bring him down. At Pharsalus, his tactics made sense honestly
His record in set piece battles is meh. As you said tho that’s 99% his ambushes winning the war and his opponents being Caesar and sertorius. His tactics at Pharsalus are good, but the lack of prepared reserves killed it. Delbruck makes the point that prepared reserves versus disengaging the 3rd line is the difference of victory and I kind of agree. Or some heavy infantry support on top of his cav/skirmishers. That would be a true combined arms attack.

Yeah it’s hindsight, but there is no planning for the cav attack going wrong. Even something like waiting with the 3rd line like Caesar would have been way better
 
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Joined Nov 2024
849 Posts | 967+
Hoboken, NJ
Napoleon
Caesar
Hannibal
Alexander
Turenne
Pompey
Eugune
John Churchill
Scipio
Philip

Might have Gustav over Scipio and Philip, not sure. I've always thought of Scipio as 30s guy all time.

Philip vs Scipio would be an interesting matchup.
 
Joined Nov 2024
849 Posts | 967+
Hoboken, NJ
I drew up a paint drawing to illustrate my point about Pharsalus.

This is the full hindsight plan.

1748476252276.png
Even if the cav runs into disaster they and the skirmishers can reform behind the reserve heavy infantry. The 3rd line in reserve can start peeling.


Versus Pompey's plan
1748476412931.png

To be fair to Pompey, the way Pharsalus is presented is misleading. The 10th legion flanked(heard that one before) the infantry battle, Caesar's cavalry likely wheeled in a fake retreat in combination with the 4th line and the 3rd line of reserves applied the maximum shock. Pretty flawless battle from Caesar.
 
Joined Oct 2024
288 Posts | 243+
Indonesia
Napoleon
Caesar
Hannibal
Alexander
Turenne
Pompey
Eugune
John Churchill
Scipio
Philip

Might have Gustav over Scipio and Philip, not sure. I've always thought of Scipio as 30s guy all time.

Philip vs Scipio would be an interesting matchup.
Mine would be

Napoleon
Alexander
Caesar
Hannibal
Turenne
Antigonus
Pompey
Scipio
Eugene
Conde?
 
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Joined Feb 2017
1,811 Posts | 1,715+
Minneapolis
Over Gustav eh ? That good huh.
Sure. I recently read a pretty good book about the Thirty Years War, Europe's Tragedy, and didn't see anything about Gustav's campaigns that wowed me like Heraclius' campaigns against Kosrow II's regime beginning 622. I'm open to being enlightened on the matter, however.
 
Joined Nov 2024
849 Posts | 967+
Hoboken, NJ
Sure. I recently read a pretty good book about the Thirty Years War, Europe's Tragedy, and didn't see anything about Gustav's campaigns that wowed me like Heraclius' campaigns against Kosrow II's regime beginning 622. I'm open to being enlightened on the matter, however.
Outside of Pompey, Caesar, and Scipio, if there is gonna be another Roman in the top 10 Western commanders it has to be Sulla. I'm actually not that familiar with Gustav at all, but I was curious. I'll focus my reply on Heraclius.

Heraclius campaign is certainly legendary, and stakes are absolutely insane. I still think it's a relatively short resume. He certainly uses the central position, defeat in detail, and guerrilla warfare to pitch perfection, but the enemies do a great job of giving a lot of room.

3 enemies armies, except the main force is just sitting there the entire campaign. Heraclius defeats the southern inexperienced army, then continues south pillaging everything, forcing the 2nd army to pursue out of anger and fear. Too quickly, the main force is once again uncoordinated. In haste, they fight another battle without coordinating with the main force. Then after the 2nd force is destroyed, the main force is destroyed in battle.

Great campaign, I wish his enemies were more coordinated in trying to destroy Heraclius. Obviously he deserves a ton of credit because his forces were outnumbered, mutinous and stuff. He also selected the perfect operational movements. But the enemy opponents did not do a good job at all in coordinating. So it's an all time legendary campaign, but weighed down by his opponents making uncoordinated movements. It's not his fault. He played his hand perfectly. But with how short the resume is and the points about the legendary campaign I pointed out, it becomes hard to rank him over someone with a LONG resume like Sulla, who also has moments of brilliance.

Obviously there's more brilliance from Heraclius after that, but I think most people think of the 3 army campaign as his absolute peak best moment.
 
Joined Jan 2024
3,592 Posts | 5,495+
Spain
Outside of Pompey, Caesar, and Scipio, if there is gonna be another Roman in the top 10 Western commanders it has to be Sulla. I'm actually not that familiar with Gustav at all, but I was curious. I'll focus my reply on Heraclius.

Heraclius campaign is certainly legendary, and stakes are absolutely insane. I still think it's a relatively short resume. He certainly uses the central position, defeat in detail, and guerrilla warfare to pitch perfection, but the enemies do a great job of giving a lot of room.

3 enemies armies, except the main force is just sitting there the entire campaign. Heraclius defeats the southern inexperienced army, then continues south pillaging everything, forcing the 2nd army to pursue out of anger and fear. Too quickly, the main force is once again uncoordinated. In haste, they fight another battle without coordinating with the main force. Then after the 2nd force is destroyed, the main force is destroyed in battle.

Great campaign, I wish his enemies were more coordinated in trying to destroy Heraclius. Obviously he deserves a ton of credit because his forces were outnumbered, mutinous and stuff. He also selected the perfect operational movements. But the enemy opponents did not do a good job at all in coordinating. So it's an all time legendary campaign, but weighed down by his opponents making uncoordinated movements. It's not his fault. He played his hand perfectly. But with how short the resume is and the points about the legendary campaign I pointed out, it becomes hard to rank him over someone with a LONG resume like Sulla, who also has moments of brilliance.

That's not a fair characterization of the operations in 624-625. Two of the Sassanid armies did cooperate with each other (Sharaplakan and Shahrbaraz) while these two hasted before Shahin's force (who seems to be in overall charge, and initially held back as a strategic reserve) to not share the success, and in fact the whole Sassanid operation plan accounted for all forces, with Shahraplakan shadowing Heraclius while the other forces converged on the Romans. Shahraplakan's force was not inexperienced at all. He had an elite force drawn from the guard units of the Sassanid emperor, in particular from the Chosrogetae and Perozitae.
 
Joined Nov 2024
849 Posts | 967+
Hoboken, NJ
Last edited:
That's not a fair characterization of the operations in 624-625. Two of the Sassanid armies did cooperate with each other (Sharaplakan and Shahrbaraz) while these two hasted before Shahin's force (who seems to be in overall charge, and initially held back as a strategic reserve) to not share the success, and in fact the whole Sassanid operation plan accounted for all forces, with Shahraplakan shadowing Heraclius while the other forces converged on the Romans. Shahraplakan's force was not inexperienced at all. He had an elite force drawn from the guard units of the Sassanid emperor, in particular from the Chosrogetae and Perozitae.
I def understated it a bit, but even if you give it full polish from the opponent operational perspective, it seems we don't know the tactical details of the battle. Hard to judge that. I think the biggest error was the 2nd engagement. After Shahraplakan's 1st army is beaten, the 2nd army(Shahrbaraz) got engaged upon without regrouping with Shahin. That's a huge mistake. I don't know how else to categorize that.

edit: After one army is gone, it's time for the reserve and the remaining army to group up and crush Heraclius, instead it's more defeat in detail. And it's not like Heraclius is forcing the split up like Napoleon.

edit2: I want to make clear Heraclius is brilliant, he's probably 7th on my all time Roman/Byz list. After Aurelian, Sulla, Rullianius and maybe Sertorius. I think Heraclius is ahead of him.
 
Joined Jan 2024
3,592 Posts | 5,495+
Spain
Last edited:
I def understated it a bit, but even if you give it full polish from the opponent operational perspective, it seems we don't know the tactical details of the battle. Hard to judge that. I think the biggest error was the 2nd engagement. After Shahraplakan's 1st army is beaten, the 2nd army(Shahrbaraz) got engaged upon without regrouping with Shahin. That's a huge mistake. I don't know how else to categorize that.

Shahraplakan was shadowing Heraclius, but through shrewd maneuvering Heraclius forced the Sassanids to follow in parallel through mountainous terrain while his own force comfortably marched through a valley with plenty of supplies. However, Shahrbaraz was approaching fast. As Heraclius heard of Shahrbaraz's proximity, he turned around and the passage below follows:

Then the emperor hastened to engage Sarablangas before the latter had been joined by the army of Sarbarazas and, having made many sorties against him both by night and by day, reduced him to a state of timidity.

Then Heraclius made a mad dash to Atropatene, with Shahraplakan and Shahrbaraz combining forces and pursuing. The emperor used two false deserters to convince the Persians that they were fearful and running away, and the Persians rushed to destroy them without Shahin to not share the glory. In their rush they advanced in disorder, and they found the Romans deployed in prepared positions, so Heraclius was able to win a relatively easy victory. Shahraplakan was wounded in action. Shortly after Shahin arrived in the region, and Heraclius turned back and defeated him in a straight pitched battle, though it probably wasn't a very heavy defeat. Soon after, Shahin and Shahrbaraz combined their remaining forces and set off to crush Heraclius with their now superior force. Heraclius escaped with a daring winter march through the Caucasus mountains and the Persians, refusing to follow, dispersed to winter in Armenia, and Shahin went out of the region entirely, probably on Khosrow's orders. However, Heraclius received news that Shahin and Shahrbaraz had separated, and returned to Armenia to engage Shahrbaraz. At some point during the winter, Heraclius foiled an ambush prepared by Shahrbaraz with a preventive strike and raided Shahrbaraz's camp, causing heavy losses and capturing a rich booty.
 
Joined Mar 2013
30,120 Posts | 16,087+
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Sure. I recently read a pretty good book about the Thirty Years War, Europe's Tragedy, and didn't see anything about Gustav's campaigns that wowed me like Heraclius' campaigns against Kosrow II's regime beginning 622. I'm open to being enlightened on the matter, however.
At least Gustav didn't shoot 3 for 20 from the field in one quarter.
 
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Joined Mar 2013
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Belisarius is easily a top 5-10 Roman general.

He had an entire year to train his infantry in Italy and just couldn't be bothered. It pretty much ended up being more useful for his opponent. Hard to put him in the top 5.
 
Joined Jul 2018
3,207 Posts | 3,087+
Pakistan
I recently read a pretty good book about the Thirty Years War, Europe's Tragedy, and didn't see anything about Gustav's campaigns that wowed me like Heraclius' campaigns against Kosrow II's regime beginning 622.
If there was ever such a thing as pure unadulterated military genius - Heraclius in the 620s was it.
 
Joined Aug 2021
15,042 Posts | 10,411+
Italia
If there was ever such a thing as pure unadulterated military genius - Heraclius in the 620s was it.
Really? I don't think it's a great example. It was more a case of learning after previous experiences and established Byzantine military theories. Other commanders that were exceptional in their first campaigns would be better examples.
 
Joined Jul 2018
3,207 Posts | 3,087+
Pakistan
Really? I don't think it's a great example. It was more a case of learning after previous experiences and established Byzantine military theories. Other commanders that were exceptional in their first campaigns would be better examples.
Like Murffy said, it completely 'wowed' me when I read about it for the first time, unlike any other campaign except maybe Sanfengshan.
 
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Joined Aug 2021
15,042 Posts | 10,411+
Italia
Like Murffy said, it completely 'wowed' me when I read about it for the first time, unlike any other campaign except maybe Sanfengshan.
I can't say the same. There have been many campaigns that match Heraclius' work, while the latter was surely very impressive.
 

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