I forgot, around 400 we have north of the alps are significant increase of women burilas and wide layers of destruction. This can be explained by a migration across the alpes at that times.
Joined Jan 2011
1,127 Posts | 46+
FRANCE
The most common definition of Celts now used by historians is "celtic language speakers", as among these populations a certain number of different cultures have emerged.
The two most known, as they have been the first denominated as such, are the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures.
The continuity betwwen these two cultures is now well established. So the Halsttat culture is today considered as a celtic culture.
But most of historians consider that celtic language speakers were in occidental Europe at least from the middle of the 2nd millenary BC.
Ethnogenesis is a very problematic and difficult subject. So we have no simple answers.
I wouldn't refute the Hallstatt culture generally as celtic, but we cannot be sure. I would agree, that there was no great ethnical and especially linguistic difference between the people of hallstatt and Latene, but that doesn't make automatically both celtic. But we know not enough about it, to quarrel about.
But I cannot see, why already in the 2nd millenium we should have Celts. That's far too long. can you give us some of these scientist's names you mean, please?
Joined Jan 2011
1,127 Posts | 46+
FRANCE
Certainly, ethnogenesis is a difficult subject.
We cannot be sure that Hallstatt people were speaking the exactly same language as La Tene one, as we have not found written proofs. But I don’t know many present historians doubting that Hallstatt people were celtic speakers.
About scientist assuming that the celtic language was in use in western Europe far before the emergence of the Hallstatt culture, I would quote some of these :
- Venceslas KRUTA ( Les Celtes – 2000) :
“It appears more and more clearly that … the extension of celtic languages cannot be considered as the result of a late extension from the center-european core.”
- Patrice BRUN ( article from “La préhistoire des Celtes” 2005 – Celtes prehistory)
He assumes the emergence of celtic languages within the 3rd millennium BC.
- John COLLIS (The Celts – Origins, myths inventions – 2003)
“There are two distinct schools of thoughts about the origin and spread of the indo-European languages :
- The one of Colin Renfrew who links it with the spread of early farmers.
- The alternative is to make the time-scale much shorter, from the early Bronze Age at the earliest…”
- Pierre Yves MILCENT (archeologist)
More generally, the Hallstatt – La Tene model, assuming that all celtic speakers came from central Europe is no longer assumed as the wright model. Too many archeological proofs demonstrate that other celtic cultures were existing, before or at the same time, and elsewhere.
One of the latest contribution to that is “Celtic from the west - 2010” by Barry Cunliffe and John Koch.
Obviously, as the old model is no longer asserted, there is not yet a new model asserted by a majority of historians !
We cannot be sure that Hallstatt people were speaking the exactly same language as La Tene one, as we have not found written proofs. But I don’t know many present historians doubting that Hallstatt people were celtic speakers.
About scientist assuming that the celtic language was in use in western Europe far before the emergence of the Hallstatt culture, I would quote some of these :
- Venceslas KRUTA ( Les Celtes – 2000) :
“It appears more and more clearly that … the extension of celtic languages cannot be considered as the result of a late extension from the center-european core.”
- Patrice BRUN ( article from “La préhistoire des Celtes” 2005 – Celtes prehistory)
He assumes the emergence of celtic languages within the 3rd millennium BC.
- John COLLIS (The Celts – Origins, myths inventions – 2003)
“There are two distinct schools of thoughts about the origin and spread of the indo-European languages :
- The one of Colin Renfrew who links it with the spread of early farmers.
- The alternative is to make the time-scale much shorter, from the early Bronze Age at the earliest…”
- Pierre Yves MILCENT (archeologist)
More generally, the Hallstatt – La Tene model, assuming that all celtic speakers came from central Europe is no longer assumed as the wright model. Too many archeological proofs demonstrate that other celtic cultures were existing, before or at the same time, and elsewhere.
One of the latest contribution to that is “Celtic from the west - 2010” by Barry Cunliffe and John Koch.
Obviously, as the old model is no longer asserted, there is not yet a new model asserted by a majority of historians !
Joined Apr 2010
1,247 Posts | 0+
Manila
Joined Jan 2011
2,205 Posts | 8+
England.
That's two of your threads faviorted to read once I've eaten. It looks interesting and well recieved by the responses. 
Joined Jan 2011
1,127 Posts | 46+
FRANCE
In the "Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise" (Gaulish language dictionary) by Xavier Delamarre, Bello-uesus and Sego-uesus are translated by Worthy of victory. It would come from IE *uesu.
Clovis would not come from - weihs but from hlod (famous) - wig (battle)
??
maybe it comes from *uesu-good, maybe not
weihs is the same as your wig, just see the latin version -vechus
Joined Jan 2011
1,127 Posts | 46+
FRANCE
The Celts had a "starting advantage" as they occupied a large territory in the beginning of the 4th century BC and were numerous.
But they never had the awareness to be members of the same people, and the different celt people have been fighting each other for centuries.
As a unified people, they could have overwhelmed Italy during the 4th and beginning of 3rd centuries (if they had wanted to).
But they were not, and from the end of the 3th century, when Romans began to organize and expand, it was too late for Celt people.
But they never had the awareness to be members of the same people, and the different celt people have been fighting each other for centuries.
As a unified people, they could have overwhelmed Italy during the 4th and beginning of 3rd centuries (if they had wanted to).
But they were not, and from the end of the 3th century, when Romans began to organize and expand, it was too late for Celt people.
More History Discussions
- Locked
Trending History Discussions
-
The Great Captains of History - How Many Battles? - Version 7- Started by DiocletianIsBetterThanYou
- Replies: 861
-
-
The Great Captains of History - How Many Battles? - Version 5
- Started by DiocletianIsBetterThanYou
- Replies: 3K
-
The Diversity Of Early African Architecture/Ruins Thread- Started by Kilwa Sultanate
- Replies: 2K
-