What about Eastern Europe?

arras · Jun 22, 2011

sturm said:
Arras, this memorial is nothing more but a memorial to an occupier army, and it is in the center of my city, i want it removed, i don't want it destroyed because it is after all history, but there should be a special park, where such statues must be gathered like a museum. Isn't that a practice in many post socialist countries? What was it done in your country?

it was the same in Slovakia. but I newer was very found of it. Because it is exactly what communists did: by erasing statues and memorials they thought to erase parts of unwelcome history.

Now neokapitalists and democrats are erasing another part of our history.

Some years later another bunch of people will come with their own agenda and will erase monuments of democrats.

Result will be that we will be people without history.

If you think it doesn't fit on to the central place it occupies in your city, find some other suitable one but insulting it is barbarism. People who did it are not better than communist censors and culture commissars.

sturm said:
There are many people bulgarians and not-bulgarians who have done a lot for my country and who don't have a stuatue, but turly deserve to have one.

I do not think desecrating memorial to Soviet soldiers will honour in any way those people. Why are you not building them statues and memorials instead?

sturm said:
Yet the soviet army rises above anything in the center of the town.
By the way, before 1944 one of the major boulevards in Sofia was named "Adolf Hitler" but as you can guess he was renamed. Memory or not, history or not, many statues of the past regime were removed by the communists, why leave there statues now?

If it would be monument of Stalin or Lenin, I would not say one world. However it is memorial to simple soldiers many of who believed that they are bringing freedom to your people and gave their life in the process. Not fighting you. Fighting Hitler and his murderous hordes.

sturm said:
I have enourmous respect for the common soviet soldier who gave his life in fight against Nazi Germany, but i just don't think his memorial should be in the center of my town, at least not anymore.

Then just move it to some other place.

sturm said:
The man who did that is unknown, the police searches for him, and if he is captured he will be most likely arrested for vandalism.

Than police would save honour of Bulgarian people, because it indeed is vandalism.

arras · Jun 22, 2011

Monument of liberating Soviet army in capital of Slovakia Bratislava. One of the nicest in Slovakia. Occupies dominant position on the hill overlooking city. Makes very nice destination for small walk-over. Luckily nobody thinks it should be removed:

On the other hand statues of Marx, Lenin, Gotwald (Czechoslovak communistic leader) and other communistic topheads were removed.

Sankari · Jun 22, 2011

sturm said:
I believe that eastern europeans have equally opened themselfs to the west, and seek the western culture, a culture that was forbidden for them. This made them very interested in it. Even during the communism, while i was in school we gathered together and listened sometimes to radio free europe, it wasn't avaible from every point it was muted, but nevertheless it was possible to listen to it. Also we have listened to music from western europe. So as they say the forbidden fruit is the forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest

Thank you, this supports what I have said.

I also want to say that we here also feel part of the western culture, because after all, where is the differece? We also live a way of life which is similar if not exactly the same as those in western europe, we watch and we make the same movies, same music inspired by that culture. I do believe that the western culture isn't something seperate anymore.

Interesting view. I would have thought East Europeans would be very jealous of their culture and prefer to be seen as separate.

This is a well made documentary about the life during the regime and what happened with it, at least in my country, i strongly recomand anybody interested to look at it:

Thanks, I will watch it.

Warlock · Jun 22, 2011

arras said:
Monument of liberating Soviet army in capital of Slovakia Bratislava. One of the nicest in Slovakia. Occupies dominant position on the hill overlooking city. Makes very nice destination for small walk-over. Luckily nobody thinks it should be removed:

On the other hand statues of Marx, Lenin, Gotwald (Czechoslovak communistic leader) and other communistic topheads were removed.

Bratislava name was fabricated in 1919. Isn't it?

sturm · Jun 22, 2011

arras said:
it was the same in Slovakia. but I newer was very found of it. Because it is exactly what communists did: by erasing statues and memorials they thought to erase parts of unwelcome history.

Now neokapitalists and democrats are erasing another part of our history.

Some years later another bunch of people will come with their own agenda and will erase monuments of democrats.

Result will be that we will be people without history.

If you think it doesn't fit on to the central place it occupies in your city, find some other suitable one but insulting it is barbarism. People who did it are not better than communist censors and culture commissars.

Then it would be only natural for us to return old fascist monuments and older names of boulevards and streets?

arras said:
I do not think desecrating memorial to Soviet soldiers will honour in any way those people. Why are you not building them statues and memorials instead?

They are plenty. I actually don't want a monument of any foreign army whatsoever.

arras said:
If it would be monument of Stalin or Lenin, I would not say one world. However it is memorial to simple soldiers many of who believed that they are bringing freedom to your people and gave their life in the process. Not fighting you. Fighting Hitler and his murderous hordes.

The soviet army entered in Bulgaria as an occupation army, not as a friend. Actually Bulgaria even though ally to Nazi Germany have not declared war to the Soviet Union. It is actually the Soviet Union that declared war, and entered in Bulgaria exactly as occupators.

arras said:
Then just move it to some other place.

If i could i would, the problem is i can't do anything about it. I might protest, but infront of me people who want it to stay there will also protest.

Sankari · Jun 22, 2011

I wonder what the good soldier Švejk would have to say about all the arguing in this thread.

I think he would laugh.

arras · Jun 22, 2011

sturm said:
If i could i would, the problem is i can't do anything about it. I might protest, but infront of me people who want it to stay there will also protest.

So what is their reasoning if Soviets occupied you?

Btw: Slovakia was also Hitlers ally.

sturm · Jun 22, 2011

arras said:
So what is their reasoning if Soviets occupied you?

Btw: Slovakia was also Hitlers ally.

In school here, it was and to some extend it still is, taught that the russians are our closest allies in every aspect of life. That they are liberators, that they liberated us from Ottoman occupation, and from "monarch-fascism" (whatever that is) in World war 2. This was the main doctrine, to learn that.
Those people grown up with those ideas, i've studied history in University and i have seen that thigs stad entirely different, that Russians have aways fallowed there own often imperialistic interests.

vid · Jun 22, 2011

Sankari said:
I wonder what the good soldier Švejk would have to say about all the arguing in this thread.

I think he would laugh.

Considering that Švejk persona was authored by a member of Soviet Communist party (and I am not sure if he wasn't a Chekist too), my guess is that Švejk would be anti-statue hardliner in a very ridiculous way

antonina · Jun 22, 2011

Warlock said:
Pan-Slavic chauvinism and the esoteric fantasy of "slavic race" again? How many scientific Nobel awards have the slavic-speaking countries ???
Nikolaus Köppernick (latin: Nicolaus Copernicus) was a German, scientist who lived in Poland, the mothertongue of Köppernick family was also German.

In Western Europe there weren't such a chauvinist superstate/united race ideologies, the Pan-Latinism (united Italy Portugal France Spain super state) Pan-Germanicism (United England Germany Belgium Netherland Switzerland Austria Denmark Sweden Norway) weren't exist. Only Slavic countries have such a superstate megalomanic race-based ideas for the "domination of Europe". )

Now wait a minute (I'm absent just one day from Historum and see what happens!

). Mikolaj Kopernik was a Polsh astronomer, try Encyclopedia Brittanica for starters:

Nicolaus Copernicus, Polish astronomer, who proposed that the planets have the Sun as the fixed point to which their motions are to be referred;

Born on February 19, 1473, in Toruń, a city in north-central Poland on the Vistula River south of the major Baltic seaport of Gdańsk)—died May 24, 1543, Frauenburg, East Prussia (now Frombork).
______________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

Wikipedia will show you that the area where Kopernik lived was a very multicultural one at the time. He was certainly partly German, as his mother's family was a German one. However, he was born, lived and worked in the Kingdom of Poland (or Polish Commowealth, as it was called).

By your reasoning, one would have to regard eg. Kazuo Ishuguro as a Japanese writer, or Zadie Smith as a Jamaican one!

PS. About Panslavism - don't get it into your head we're any way keen on it here in Poland, and I don't think you'd find many enthusiasts in other Central/Eastern European countries.
The idea has been exploited by Russia far too often to take us into its bear hug - and we've had quite enough of that, thank you.

Sankari · Jun 22, 2011

vid said:
Considering that Švejk persona was authored by a member of Soviet Communist party (and I am not sure if he wasn't a Chekist too), my guess is that Švejk would be anti-statue hardliner in a very ridiculous way

Hasek was a good old fashioned Bolshevik. He died only one year after the Soviet Republic was established. It's not fair to call him a Soviet!

I think Švejk would have dropped his trousers and mooned the statue.

Sankari · Jun 22, 2011

antonina said:
Now wait a minute (I'm absent just one day from Historum and see what happens! ). Mikolaj Kopernik was a Polsh astronomer, try Encyclopedia Brittanica for starters:

Nicolaus Copernicus (Mikolaj Kopernik) was born on February 19, 1473, in Toruń, a city in north-central Poland on the Vistula River south of the major Baltic seaport of Gdańsk)—died May 24, 1543, Frauenburg, East Prussia (now Frombork).

OK guys, it was bad enough when you couldn't agree on who owned what territory, or who's a Balkan and who isn't, or who attacked who first, or whose great-great-grandfather stole whose great-great-grandfather's goat, but now you can't even agree who owns these famous East Europeans?

kimi · Jun 22, 2011

antonina said:
Nicolaus Copernicus, Polish astronomer, who proposed that the planets have the Sun as the fixed point to which their motions are to be referred;

Nicolaus Copernicus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yay, nationalsim. I wont say he was a !!GERMAN!! astronomer (should I also choose even bigger font size?) but he wanst a !!POLISH!! astronomer either.

However, seeing your diet of books you so far told I dont think theres even a chance for comon ground or compromise.

Osviux · Jun 22, 2011

I blame the russians... They always ruin everything

Mosquito · Jun 22, 2011

kimi said:
Nicolaus Copernicus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yay, nationalsim. I wont say he was a !!GERMAN!! astronomer (should I also choose even bigger font size?) but he wanst a !!POLISH!! astronomer either.

However, seeing your diet of books you so far told I dont think theres even a chance for comon ground or compromise.

Mikolaj Kopernik (Nicolaus Copernicus) was born in Poland, was living in Poland, studied on the University of Cracow in Poland (as well as later in Italy), served as official and military commander in Poland, worked in Poland. Poland was a multilanguage and multinational state but he was Polish citisen or rather according to medieval standarts - subject of Polish king and crown. But yes Copernicus was of German blood and his first language was German. For him his nationality wasnt probably as important as it is for some people today.

But so was also another famous astronomer pol. Jan Heweliusz, germ. Johann Hewelcke, latin Johannes Hevelius. He was of Bohemian descent, German speaking, born in Poland, worked in Poland, died in Poland, he described himself as being part of the Polish world (civis Orbis Poloniae). He invented and named the constellation Scutum Sobiescianum (Sobieski's Shield), now called SCUTUM after name of Polish king John III Sobieski. This constellation first occurred publicly in his star atlas Firmamentum Sobiescianum.

What was his nationality? Considering the fact that he described himself as part of Polish world - I would say he was a German speaking Pole of bohemian descent - just like Copernicus about whom some historians say that he was also of Bohemian, not German descent. However if he wasnt famous - wouldnt you call his father (who was from Cracow) and him - german speaking Poles?

antonina · Jun 22, 2011

kimi said:
Nicolaus Copernicus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yay, nationalsim. I wont say he was a !!GERMAN!! astronomer (should I also choose even bigger font size?) but he wanst a !!POLISH!! astronomer either.

However, seeing your diet of books you so far told I dont think theres even a chance for comon ground or compromise.

Don't get excited, what's nationalism got to do with it?

I did say the area was a multicultural one, didn't I?
Ethnicity has nothing to do with determining the issue.
It's hardly worth arguing how many Polish/German or (very likely) other ancestors Kopernik/Copernicus had. Considering his family history + the melting pot that Prussia was at the time, his "ethnicity" was probably very mixed.

However - I repeat - the area where he was born, lived and worked was part of the Polish state. Therefore, by common standards, he was a Polish astronomer.

If this doesn't convince you, perhaps Martin Luter will.
Not able to roast Copernicus in person, he burnt his effigy, accompanied by the sign "Stupid Polish Astronomer"

Anna James · Jun 22, 2011

Deleted after reading sturm's advise.

Anna James · Jun 22, 2011

Warlock said:
Pan-Slavic chauvinism and the esoteric fantasy of "slavic race" again? How many scientific Nobel awards have the slavic-speaking countries ???
Nikolaus Köppernick (latin: Nicolaus Copernicus) was a German, scientist who lived in Poland, the mothertongue of Köppernick family was also German.

In Western Europe there weren't such a chauvinist superstate/united race ideologies, the Pan-Latinism (united Italy Portugal France Spain super state) Pan-Germanicism (United England Germany Belgium Netherland Switzerland Austria Denmark Sweden Norway) weren't exist. Only Slavic countries have such a superstate megalomanic race-based ideas for the "domination of Europe". )

There is Pan-Slavism here, but bringing evidence what the Eastern European countries had contributed to the modern world; as opposed to the opinion that they brought only 101 ways to cook a potato, ans some music.

vid · Jun 22, 2011

This problem exactly can be found in past of all states of the area. There is little sense in trying to pinpoint nationality of historical person according to todays national states. In pre 20th century multinational states, there weren't clear-cut nationalities.

Sankari · Jun 22, 2011

Anna James said:
but no one calls the US, that has thousands of churches and anyone can make his own in his own house "another civilization".

I agree. Whatever is happening in the US, it has nothing to do with civilisation.

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What about Eastern Europe?

arras

arras

Sankari

Warlock

sturm

Sankari

arras

sturm

vid

antonina

Sankari

Sankari

kimi

Osviux

Mosquito

antonina

Anna James

Anna James

vid

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