Joined Jan 2014
1,281 Posts | 0+
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If Bolschevism should be associated with "Judaism", how can USSR's position regarding Israel since 1967 can be explained?

Judaism is not associated with bolchevism. Judeo-bolchevism is a nazi myth.
USSR position regarding Israel was favourable till Israel and Golda Meir started make propaganda in USSR borders... Stalin didnt appreciated it.
Stalin created the first jewish state in history with Birobijan. He was not antisemitic at all ; he voted for the creation of Israel at UN, he armed Israeli forces in 1948 in their struggle against arabs and litterally saved their ..... (Ben Gourion recognized it). But then, Golda Meir came in USSR in order to make some propaganda, to convince jews to go back to their "fatherland" Israel...
 
Joined Jan 2013
5,835 Posts | 11+
Canberra, Australia
Judaism is not associated with bolchevism. Judeo-bolchevism is a nazi myth.

It is not a specifically National Socialist belief.

It was widely held by conservative forces in the West, and also by Polish nationalists.

Even Churchill believed in "Judeo-Bolshevism"; he wrote an article in 1920 claiming that Bolshevism was a Jewish political movement, and proposed that Zionism should be supported as a Jewish political movement in opposition to "Jewish Bolshevism".
 
Joined Jan 2014
1,281 Posts | 0+
France
It is not a specifically National Socialist belief.

It was widely held by conservative forces in the West, and also by Polish nationalists.

Even Churchill believed in "Judeo-Bolshevism"; he wrote an article in 1920 claiming that Bolshevism was a Jewish political movement, and proposed that Zionism should be supported as a Jewish political movement in opposition to "Jewish Bolshevism".

It was particularly a nazi myth. It was a heavy principle of nazism that bolchevism only resulted from jewish influence.
Its is not so strong for other political movement. In one word the more you go to the right-wing the more you believe in this myth, the more "jews" are obsessional.
 
Joined May 2013
891 Posts | 0+
america
It was particularly a nazi myth. It was a heavy principle of nazism that bolchevism only resulted from jewish influence.
Its is not so strong for other political movement. In one word the more you go to the right-wing the more you believe in this myth, the more "jews" are obsessional.

Right, but how does this supposed mythos come to terms with the fact that every secret police chief was indeed Jewish, and that Jewish religious establishments were spared the torch???
 
Joined May 2013
891 Posts | 0+
america
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Yes, I think that we are in a position were we have a lot more information than Churchill did when he stated that. Russia was in chaos at the time, even with the best intelligence resources available at the time, we still have the advantage of opened archives, statistics and lots of historical research carried out in the century passed since then.

"Do a Google search"? Please, provide some sources, otherwise we will have to assume you don't have any. Especially for the claim about "EVERY single secret police chief" being Jewish. It seems easy enough to claim, especially if it is based on one of those writers that surmise "Well, he looked Jewish, so he probably was Jewish as well" or "His great grandparents came from an area that had a lot of Jews, so he is Jewish as well" and that sort of nonsense applied by Slezkine and friends.

No, we do not have better intelligence than the man who led war time Britain, the man who led the world's greatest intel agency. Just because people want to ignore the fact that all Soviet intel chiefs were Jewish, does not mean it was a fabrication. Churchill made it his business to know what was happening in Russia, you know this.


And im assuming from your lack of discrediting counter evidence, you did a Google search, and found the very same evidence that I referred to. Meaning a simple visit to the Library of congress website, and a scan of the last names held by Soviet Secret Police leadership, and indeed the overall leadership right after the Revolution.


I also find the fact that your newly found "information" that so surpasses Churchill's professionally gathered beta, comes in no small part from Jewish academia and scholarship. In this case, leading to an obvious, obvious conflict of interest.

There are Israeli funded websites, that encourage and even pay for Jewish people worldwide to lie in the name of Eretz Israel. Hasbarafellowships.org being only one, but the most prominent. So how can I trust any information put together by people belonging to a nation, that is blatant about their use of misinformation?
 
Joined May 2013
891 Posts | 0+
america
It was particularly a nazi myth. It was a heavy principle of nazism that bolchevism only resulted from jewish influence.
Its is not so strong for other political movement. In one word the more you go to the right-wing the more you believe in this myth, the more "jews" are obsessional.

The right wing?? Like Likud??

No, it is not some right wing obsession, just simple human curiosity, resulting in the acquiring of facts. Churchill was no Nazi, so I tend to look at any views held in strong confidence by the man, to be established from more than just his "gut" suspicion. The man knew what MI6 and MI5 knew, and that was no small pamphlet.
 
Joined Jan 2014
1,281 Posts | 0+
France
Right, but how does this supposed mythos come to terms with the fact that every secret police chief was indeed Jewish, and that Jewish religious establishments were spared the torch???
I am waiting your list of "all jewish secret police chief" lol... supra i have already cited the chief of the ukrainian cheka called Degniarenko and who was not jewish at all... i alreadey cited a book on that, and jews were only a minority in Cheka, NKVD, Red Army and Bolchevikl party... all the rest is propaganda and myths cultivated by right-wing (anti-bolchevik/anti-semit).

What do you mean by "and that Jewish religious establishments were spared the torch???"...
 
Joined Jan 2014
1,281 Posts | 0+
France
No, we do not have better intelligence than the man who led war time Britain, the man who led the world's greatest intel agency. Just because people want to ignore the fact that all Soviet intel chiefs were Jewish, does not mean it was a fabrication. Churchill made it his business to know what was happening in Russia, you know this.
It is a history forum not a politic forum for your propaganda... History says that not all soviet intel chiefs were jewish...

And im assuming from your lack of discrediting counter evidence, you did a Google search, and found the very same evidence that I referred to. Meaning a simple visit to the Library of congress website, and a scan of the last names held by Soviet Secret Police leadership, and indeed the overall leadership right after the Revolution.
Do it right now. We are waiting for your prose.

I also find the fact that your newly found "information" that so surpasses Churchill's professionally gathered beta, comes in no small part from Jewish academia and scholarship. In this case, leading to an obvious, obvious conflict of interest.
Churchill made politics and anti-bolcheviks... he was not particularly agaisnt jews, but if saying some bad things about them could give him some votes, why not ? He was a politic.

There are Israeli funded websites, that encourage and even pay for Jewish people worldwide to lie in the name of Eretz Israel. Hasbarafellowships.org being only one, but the most prominent. So how can I trust any information put together by people belonging to a nation, that is blatant about their use of misinformation?
Every nation use propaganda and misinformation...
 
Joined Jan 2014
1,281 Posts | 0+
France
The right wing?? Like Likud??

No, it is not some right wing obsession, just simple human curiosity, resulting in the acquiring of facts. Churchill was no Nazi, so I tend to look at any views held in strong confidence by the man, to be established from more than just his "gut" suspicion. The man knew what MI6 and MI5 knew, and that was no small pamphlet.
Of course as Hitler was not anti-germans, Likud is not anti-jews...
Churchill was not nazi, but he was antibolchevik too... and he just repeat the common propaganda used against the left... "judeobolchevism" etc...
Im sure you know that MI6 and MI5 has to do some propaganda/misinformation job too ;)
 
Joined Dec 2010
5,581 Posts | 721+
Pillium
No, we do not have better intelligence than the man who led war time Britain, the man who led the world's greatest intel agency.

Quite the little Churchill fanboy aren't you? FYI Churchill may have been PM but that doesn't mean he led the British intel services. He received reports from them and sometimes tried to direct them but for the most part they took their instructions from the armed forces chiefs of staff.

Just because people want to ignore the fact that all Soviet intel chiefs were Jewish, does not mean it was a fabrication.

You have yet to provide a single source that verifies that as a fact, despite being asked.
It seems that we are to take every word you say as gospel truth whilst all other poster's contributions have to be backed up with multiple sources. No, you made the claim that all post revolution security chiefs were Jewish so either back it up, as asked, or retract the statement.

Churchills attitude to the Jews seems to have been similar to that of the upper classes as a whole at that time, one of contempt disguised by proper 'manners'. He may have attempted to give a different picture but what else do you expect from a politician?

Historians clash over Churchill 'anti-Semitism' | UK news | The Observer
 
Joined Jul 2012
3,421 Posts | 181+
Dhaka
Quite the little Churchill fanboy aren't you? FYI Churchill may have been PM but that doesn't mean he led the British intel services. He received reports from them and sometimes tried to direct them but for the most part they took their instructions from the armed forces chiefs of staff.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/mar/11/highereducation.race

Incidentally, when Churchill made those remarks in 1920, he was the War Secretary to whom armed forces chiefs report.
 
Joined Jan 2013
5,835 Posts | 11+
Canberra, Australia
The heads of the Soviet political police were not all of Jewish origin, although some such as Iagoda were.

However, they were strongly pro-Jewish in the same way as the United States Government today is strongly pro-Jewish and supports Jewish interests without question. They invariably crushed any group of people that opposed Jewish interests, such as Ukrainian nationalists.

The first leader of the Cheka, Feliks Dzerzhynskii, was of Polish aristocratic background, but he was heavily judaised through his relationships with Jewish revolutionaries, particularly with Jewish women.

The head of the NKVD during the Great Terror, Nikolai Ezhov, had a Jewish wife and had close relationships with Jewish intellectuals, including Isaak Babel. In fact, it was very common for leading non-Jewish Bolsheviks to have Jewish wives, and there can be little doubt that they were influenced in a pro-Jewish direction by them.

The successor to Ezhov, Lavrentii Beriia, was so virulently philosemitic that it was rumoured that he was a crypto-Jew, which was not true, since he was of Georgian origin. His support of Jewish interests was demonstrated by his immediate action after the death of Stalin to release the Kremlin doctors, most of them Jewish, who had been accused of poisoning Soviet leaders, and to purge the NKVD officers who had accused them.

There was even a rumour that he had killed Stalin himself, in order to halt the anti-Jewish agitation that had accompanied the so-called "Doctors' Plot". However there is no real evidence for that belief.

It is a well-known historical fact that anti-Semitism was a crime under Soviet law, and carried the death penalty in some cases. Prosecution for anti-Semitism was often used as a means of getting rid of political opponents. The most prominent person executed for alleged anti-Semitism was the head of the Crimean Tatar ASSR, Ibragimov, who in the 1920s had offended philosemitic elements in the Soviet hierarchy by his strenuous opposition to proposals for the settlement of Jews in agricultural colonies in Crimea.

There was a joke that circulated in Soviet Russia and, after the Second World War, in the Soviet satellites such as Poland, which is revelatory of the perception among the common people of the relationship between Jewish and non-Jewish Bolsheviks.

It went like this:

Question: "Why are there non-Jewish Bolsheviks (or non-Jewish Chekists)?"

Answer: "Someone has to carry out the executions on Saturdays".

The joke was an allusion to the common East European institution of the "shabbes goy", that is, a non-Jew hired by wealthier Jews to perform all the necessary functions that a pious Jew is prohibited from performing on the Sabbath, eg lighting fires, cooking food, running errands etc.

The "shabbes goyim" were invariably drawn from the lowest strata of Gentile society, and were despised by the general population for being "servants of the Jews".

Hence the purpose of the joke was to imply that non-Jewish Bolsheviks were performing the traditional role of "shabbes goyim", and were as such despicable people, from the dregs of Gentile society.
 
Joined Jan 2014
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France
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The heads of the Soviet political police were not all of Jewish origin, although some such as Iagoda were.
Yes, and ? Does it make ther whole and forever Cheka NKVD a "jewish organisation" like you are claiming it is ?

However, they were strongly pro-Jewish in the same way as the United States Government today is strongly pro-Jewish and supports Jewish interests without question. They invariably crushed any group of people that opposed Jewish interests, such as Ukrainian nationalists.
I dont see any problem for opposing ukrainian nazis...

The first leader of the Cheka, Feliks Dzerzhynskii, was of Polish aristocratic background, but he was heavily judaised through his relationships with Jewish revolutionaries, particularly with Jewish women.
"Judaised" ? 1-he was not a jew, 2-he was not converted 3-he was in affair with some jewish women... and ? It makes him a jewish puppet ? Are you serious ?

The head of the NKVD during the Great Terror, Nikolai Ezhov, had a Jewish wife and had close relationships with Jewish intellectuals, including Isaak Babel. In fact, it was very common for leading non-Jewish Bolsheviks to have Jewish wives, and there can be little doubt that they were influenced in a pro-Jewish direction by them.
1- not all women of Soviet leaders were jewish...
2-You cant blame some for having jewish women... nobody forced them to do so...

The successor to Ezhov, Lavrentii Beriia, was so virulently philosemitic that it was rumoured that he was a crypto-Jew, which was not true, since he was of Georgian origin. His support of Jewish interests was demonstrated by his immediate action after the death of Stalin to release the Kremlin doctors, most of them Jewish, who had been accused of poisoning Soviet leaders, and to purge the NKVD officers who had accused them.
So you admit that the main NKVD chief in soviet history was not a jew ? Good point. But now you claim he was (him too?) a jewish puppet ? Dont you forget he sent many jews in gulag ? that it was him who is supposed to have killed some sionists leaders in SU like Salomon Mikaels (and others) etc. ?

There was even a rumour that he had killed Stalin himself, in order to halt the anti-Jewish agitation that had accompanied the so-called "Doctors' Plot". However there is no real evidence for that belief.
Yes thre is many rumors ! Like "judeobolchevism" is one of them. But rumors are not facts.

It is a well-known historical fact that anti-Semitism was a crime under Soviet law, and carried the death penalty in some cases. Prosecution for anti-Semitism was often used as a means of getting rid of political opponents. The most prominent person executed for alleged anti-Semitism was the head of the Crimean Tatar ASSR, Ibragimov, who in the 1920s had offended philosemitic elements in the Soviet hierarchy by his strenuous opposition to proposals for the settlement of Jews in agricultural colonies in Crimea.
For sure USSR was not antisemitic, and it's a good point to punish antisemits/racists/nationalists.

There was a joke that circulated in Soviet Russia and, after the Second World War, in the Soviet satellites such as Poland, which is revelatory of the perception among the common people of the relationship between Jewish and non-Jewish Bolsheviks.

It went like this:

Question: "Why are there non-Jewish Bolsheviks (or non-Jewish Chekists)?"

Answer: "Someone has to carry out the executions on Saturdays".

The joke was an allusion to the common East European institution of the "shabbes goy", that is, a non-Jew hired by wealthier Jews to perform all the necessary functions that a pious Jew is prohibited from performing on the Sabbath, eg lighting fires, cooking food, running errands etc.

The "shabbes goyim" were invariably drawn from the lowest strata of Gentile society, and were despised by the general population for being "servants of the Jews".

Hence the purpose of the joke was to imply that non-Jewish Bolsheviks were performing the traditional role of "shabbes goyim", and were as such despicable people, from the dregs of Gentile society.
Poland was still very antisemitic after 1945. There was still pogroms as late as 1947...
Very catholic and very antisemitic... very nationalist and very antibolchevik...
 
Joined Jan 2013
5,835 Posts | 11+
Canberra, Australia
Yes, and ? Does it make ther whole and forever Cheka NKVD a "jewish organisation" like you are claiming it is ?

I have never claimed that the Cheka or the NKVD were "Jewish organisations" as such.

Please do not try to falsify in such a dishonest manner what I have written.

What I have claimed, with statistical evidence, is that in the early years of the Bolshevik regime in Russia, and right up to the mid-1930s, Jews were greatly over-represented in the Soviet political police, particularly in its leadership.

I have presented statistical evidence to show that in 1934, nearly 40% of the top leadership of the NKVD was of Jewish nationality, which means that there were proportionately more Jews in that top leadership than members of any other Soviet ethnic group.

I have presented statistical evidence that shows that in 1919, 75% of the Kiev Cheka was Jewish.

It was only in the late 1930s that the proportion of Jews in the leadership of the political police began to fall, with Jews being replaced by ethnic Russians.

Thus, it is true to say that during the first 20 years of Bolshevik rule in Russia and the Soviet Union, the leadership of the political police was disproportionately Jewish in its composition.

What that shows is that the Soviet leaders gave relative preference to Jews in recruiting personnel into the political police and promoting them to leadership positions, right up until the late 1930s. That in turn suggests that the Soviet leaders considered the Jewish population to be more sympathetic to Communism and more loyal to Communist rule than any other ethnic group in the Soviet Union.

That tendency was replicated in the Soviet satellite states after the Second World War, where in the first decade of Communist rule preference was given to Communist functionaries of Jewish origin, since they were considered more loyal to the Soviet Union than Poles, Hungarians, etc.

I dont see any problem for opposing ukrainian nazis...

Ukrainians were entitled to independence and their own national state.

If Jews tried to oppose Ukrainian independence, then Ukrainians were entitled to take action against those Jewish opponents.

That does not excuse the punishment of the mass of innocent Jews along with those who were guilty of oppressing the Ukrainian people, but it does explain it; the punishment of the innocent along with the guilty has always been an unfortunate part of human history.
 
Joined Jul 2012
3,421 Posts | 181+
Dhaka
Have you read the link posted by Davidius just before you ? It is written that it's not Churchill who has written these words...

If that link says that "it's not Churchill who has written these words", then that link is terribly 'misinformed'. Because, Churchill did write that piece in a newspaper article (Illustrated Sunday Herald (London), February 8, 1920, pg. 5), link to which was posted earlier in this thread.
 
Joined Jan 2014
1,281 Posts | 0+
France
If that link says that "it's not Churchill who has written these words", then that link is terribly 'misinformed'. Because, Churchill did write that piece in a newspaper article (Illustrated Sunday Herald (London), February 8, 1920, pg. 5), link to which was posted earlier in this thread.
OK davidius' link deals with an other writing dated by 1937 etc...

I give your source Zionism versus Bolshevism - Wikisource, the free online library

Indeed int this article Churchill has no hindsight as we actually do. He wrote in 1920 about contemporary facts... plus, as you reminded, he hold a political function by this time, and, officially, GB was fighting with the "whites" against the "reds". He had to speak the "whites" propaganda, and what whites propaganda was telling was that beyond bolcheviks there were jews...
This is more diplomatical and political propaganda than an objective and historical thoughts.
 
Joined Jan 2014
1,281 Posts | 0+
France
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I have never claimed that the Cheka or the NKVD were "Jewish organisations" as such.

Please do not try to falsify in such a dishonest manner what I have written.
You were backing up Elvice dishonest words...

What I have claimed, with statistical evidence, is that in the early years of the Bolshevik regime in Russia, and right up to the mid-1930s, Jews were greatly over-represented in the Soviet political police, particularly in its leadership.
This is the problem : you have no valid statistics, cause the only one you could get would not allow you to claim that SU leaders were jewish...

I have presented statistical evidence to show that in 1934, nearly 40% of the top leadership of the NKVD was of Jewish nationality, which means that there were proportionately more Jews in that top leadership than members of any other Soviet ethnic group.
You are taking one year 1934 to deal with all the period. Furthermore, your 40% is not even a majority (51%)...

I have presented statistical evidence that shows that in 1919, 75% of the Kiev Cheka was Jewish.
We are still waiting for some evidences... But let's assume that you are right... let's imagine that 75% of the Kiev Cheka was jewish, does it allow you to say that for all the period and for all things in SU Jews were a majority ? Nope... One thing in one city in one year is not valuable for a whole country for a whole period...

It was only in the late 1930s that the proportion of Jews in the leadership of the political police began to fall, with Jews being replaced by ethnic Russians.
From what statistics did you get it ? Im curious.

Thus, it is true to say that during the first 20 years of Bolshevik rule in Russia and the Soviet Union, the leadership of the political police was disproportionately Jewish in its composition.
We still wait for harder evidences than one year in one city (1919 in Kiev) (1934) for one organization (Cheka) (NKVD). what is embarassing for you is that Beria wa snot jewish ; that leader of Kiev Cheka was not jewish and that indeed jews weere still a minority in thoses instances... And what about Stalin or Lenin ? Not even jewish of course... The only "big" one was Trotski and he was ejected :D Too bad for your demonstration.

What that shows is that the Soviet leaders gave relative preference to Jews in recruiting personnel into the political police and promoting them to leadership positions, right up until the late 1930s.
So you are claiming that there was a racial positive discrimination towards jews ? That's weird. Why the leader of the reovlution was Lenin and not any jew ? Why Stalin ejected Trotski so ? Why Iagoda was killed and replaced by Iegov who himself was replaced by Beria so ? Why in Kiev in 1919 the chief of Cheka was Ukrainian and not jewish ?
Many questions you have to deal with...

That in turn suggests that the Soviet leaders considered the Jewish population to be more sympathetic to Communism and more loyal to Communist rule than any other ethnic group in the Soviet Union.
Well just quote one of this leader claiming that jews were more sympathetic to them... Lenin said that ? Stalin said that ? Who ?
The fact is that, due to tsarist and "whites" antisemitism, many jews joined bolchevik party during the war...

That tendency was replicated in the Soviet satellite states after the Second World War, where in the first decade of Communist rule preference was given to Communist functionaries of Jewish origin, since they were considered more loyal to the Soviet Union than Poles, Hungarians, etc.
Give us some words from Stalin explaining this please. :D
Or is this a secret ? a plot ? a conspiracy ?

Ukrainians were entitled to independence and their own national state. If Jews tried to oppose Ukrainian independence, then Ukrainians were entitled to take action against those Jewish opponents.
Why Ukrainians should separate ? They didnt have to. Many ukrainians were jewish, do you deny them same rights as other ukrainians ?

That does not excuse the punishment of the mass of innocent Jews along with those who were guilty of oppressing the Ukrainian people, but it does explain it; the punishment of the innocent along with the guilty has always been an unfortunate part of human history.
Judeobolchevism is a myth propagated by extremist nationalists, antibolcheviks, "whites", tsarists and antisemits and their allies...

For sure the stupid belief in this myth is one explanation to the Holocaust and pogroms...

It does not make this myth true.

Do you think The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not a forgery ?
 
Joined Jul 2012
3,421 Posts | 181+
Dhaka
OK davidius' link deals with an other writing dated by 1937 etc...

I give your source Zionism versus Bolshevism - Wikisource, the free online library

Indeed int this article Churchill has no hindsight as we actually do. He wrote in 1920 about contemporary facts... plus, as you reminded, he hold a political function by this time, and, officially, GB was fighting with the "whites" against the "reds". He had to speak the "whites" propaganda, and what whites propaganda was telling was that beyond bolcheviks there were jews...
This is more diplomatical and political propaganda than an objective and historical thoughts.

So Churchill was deliberately lying, you say?
 
Joined Jan 2013
5,835 Posts | 11+
Canberra, Australia
Jewish power and influence does not need to be exercised through Jewish leaders.

It is enough for it to be exercised through non-Jewish leaders who always protect Jewish interests.

For example, just in the past few days we have seen a former British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and the present US Vice-president, Joe ....., eulogising a notorious Jewish political criminal at his funeral.

Neither Blair nor ..... is Jewish, yet they find it necessary to express public support for Jewish interests against those of people injured by Jews, regardless of what their personal feelings might be. It is impossible to imagine them eulogising any person considered by Jews as their enemy.

Thus, it is irrelevant whether most Soviet leaders were of Jewish nationality or not. Regardless of their ethnic origin they always supported Jewish interests against those of other nationalities, particularly in the first two decades of Soviet rule, in the same way as today Blair and ..... and other Western leaders always support Jewish interests against their opponents.
 

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