Anatolian homeland for Indo-Europeans?

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So did them earliest nomadic Indo-Iranians who first emerged out of Andronovo and/or Sintashta, I believe.

They split into two branches, the Iranian group and the Indo-Aryan group. The Iranian group went to Iran and Turan. The Indo-Aryan group went to northwestern India.

The Iranian group who went to Iran made the transition to sedentary settled farming faster. While their kinsmen who went to Turan remained nomadic for longer.

Yep and there they settled in an environment that wasn't exactly steppe, so they switched to farming and merged with local farming cultures.

Scythians, Sarmatians, Massagetae etc did stay in the steppes and retained their nomad ways until much later.

And to be fair, all the great civilisations were farming cultures while nomads were mostly the barbarian warrior troublemakers and nothing more.
 

FLK

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The Sinashta culture emerges 1300 years after the Yamnaya.

Yamnaya is 3500 BCE approx.
From it, there is one branch that goes to the Corded ware culture 3000 BCE
and Sinashta is the easternmost off-shot of the Corded ware 2200 BCE

at least that is the most wide spread hypothesis.

The problem with the anatolian hypothesis is that it is also the homeland of the neolithic farmer cultures, while the indo-europeans were clearly horse riding nomads.

It looks very unlikely that horse riding nomads originated in the same area where farmers lived for thousands of years.
That's not a problem with the Anatolian hypothesis, it's just an entirely different theory. The whole horse-riding, invading nomad idea does seem to be the most popular fantasy about the Indo-Europeans, but most of the IE cultures we do know of were sedentary agricultural societies. To me it seems highly implausible that a handful of sheep herders living at the periphery of their local economies would somehow uniformly get every single established agricultural society all the way from Ireland to the Indus Valley to completely switch over to their language. It just seems to me that they aren't bringing that much to the table to cause everyone across the continent to do that. Perhaps the Indo-Iranian group do fit this model of steppe nomads. But to try to expand this model across all of Europe where there is the greatest diversity of IE languages is a real stretch of credibility.

Was there an influence from the steppes? Yes. Around 2200 BC the domestic horse indeed was introduced outside of the steppes, and did have an enormous social and economic impact across Europe and elsewhere. However before that there was the Bronze Age which was another enormous technological wave, and before that yet various other technological waves still associated with the Neolithic, but after the initial expansion. And no doubt, each of these waves were associated with the spread of various cultural features which can also be identified from the archaeological record. But at this time there isn't any written evidence which can demonstrate which languages might have been associated with any of these advances. However, many might find that a proposed expansion of PIE peoples which is strictly tied to the introduction of the horse outside the steppes around 2200 BC might only allow too narrow of a window in time to account for the diversification of all the various IE languages. If some IE peoples were migrating out of the steppes prior to 2200 BC, then they were walking alongside their oxen hauling carts, rather than riding away on horses.
 
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That's not a problem with the Anatolian hypothesis, it's just an entirely different theory. The whole horse-riding, invading nomad idea does seem to be the most popular fantasy about the Indo-Europeans, but most of the IE cultures we do know of were sedentary agricultural societies. To me it seems highly implausible that a handful of sheep herders living at the periphery of their local economies would somehow uniformly get every single established agricultural society all the way from Ireland to the Indus Valley to completely switch over to their language. It just seems to me that they aren't bringing that much to the table to cause everyone across the continent to do that. Perhaps the Indo-Iranian group do fit this model of steppe nomads. But to try to expand this model across all of Europe where there is the greatest diversity of IE languages is a real stretch of credibility.

Was there an influence from the steppes? Yes. Around 2200 BC the domestic horse indeed was introduced outside of the steppes, and did have an enormous social and economic impact across Europe and elsewhere. However before that there was the Bronze Age which was another enormous technological wave, and before that yet various other technological waves still associated with the Neolithic, but after the initial expansion. And no doubt, each of these waves were associated with the spread of various cultural features which can also be identified from the archaeological record. But at this time there isn't any written evidence which can demonstrate which languages might have been associated with any of these advances. However, many might find that a proposed expansion of PIE peoples which is strictly tied to the introduction of the horse outside the steppes around 2200 BC might only allow too narrow of a window in time to account for the diversification of all the various IE languages. If some IE peoples were migrating out of the steppes prior to 2200 BC, then they were walking alongside their oxen hauling carts, rather than riding away on horses.

The Anatolian Hypothesis is close to dead and almost buried. Now even Renfrew no longer believes in it and neither does Petra Goedegebuure.

The core of the Anatolian Hypothesis is that the huge expansion of the IE language was driven by the Neolithic farming revolution. This has few supporters left anywhere.

What Goedegebuure is arguing is that the IE language existed in Turkey/Syria before the farming revolution. Renfrew questions the place for the origin of language and the unexplained anomaly of the Anatolian languages, Hittite, Palai and Luwian. Both agree with the IE Steppe expansion hypothesis during the late PIE period from around 4000BCE but suggest that the language emanated from an Anatolian origin.

The IE expansion out of the Pontic Steppe was well over a1000 years old by 2200 BCE. The horse was domesticated by 3500BCE for certain and maybe a little earlier. In fact, by 2200 BCE the IE were producing chariots on an industrial scale.

Prior to 2000 BCE there were horses in Anatolia but these were few in number and mostly limited to the North East. There is a nice piece of research on this topic. Around 200BCE there was sudden and huge increase in the horse population, horses from the Steppe with a different DNA.

Stringing together all this data into a coherent explanation is puzzling but I think we are getting closer to working out what happened. However, as far as I am aware nothing in all this supports the neolithic farming, Anatolian Hypothesis.
 
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Aah, but then Cimmerians, Scythians, Massagetae, Sarmatians, Dahae were horse riding Indo-Iranian nomads.
All sources I can remember state the Cimmerians were an unrelated people, or foreigners. Which highlights the point that places are not peoples. fwiw the origin of "PIE" languages is most likely Crete. Where the people originate from is probably everywhere, most of them from Sumeria I would imagine. Who buried the pottery in the Steppes is probably a people long gone or replaced in the male line.
 
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FLK

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The Anatolian Hypothesis is close to dead and almost buried. Now even Renfrew no longer believes in it and neither does Petra Goedegebuure.

The core of the Anatolian Hypothesis is that the huge expansion of the IE language was driven by the Neolithic farming revolution. This has few supporters left anywhere.

What Goedegebuure is arguing is that the IE language existed in Turkey/Syria before the farming revolution. Renfrew questions the place for the origin of language and the unexplained anomaly of the Anatolian languages, Hittite, Palai and Luwian. Both agree with the IE Steppe expansion hypothesis during the late PIE period from around 4000BCE but suggest that the language emanated from an Anatolian origin.

The IE expansion out of the Pontic Steppe was well over a1000 years old by 2200 BCE. The horse was domesticated by 3500BCE for certain and maybe a little earlier. In fact, by 2200 BCE the IE were producing chariots on an industrial scale.

Prior to 2000 BCE there were horses in Anatolia but these were few in number and mostly limited to the North East. There is a nice piece of research on this topic. Around 200BCE there was sudden and huge increase in the horse population, horses from the Steppe with a different DNA.

Stringing together all this data into a coherent explanation is puzzling but I think we are getting closer to working out what happened. However, as far as I am aware nothing in all this supports the neolithic farming, Anatolian Hypothesis.
Renfrew's actual statements as far as I'm aware have been grossly misrepresented. While he acknowledged that there was merit to the steppes being integral to the history of IE languages in some way, he never actually denounced the Anatolian hypothesis, and merely left it that the whole situation was much more complex than anyone has comprehended. And this was in a lecture in honor of Marija Gimbutas, so he's hardly going to go off on any argument aggressively refuting her theories.

But the Anatolian hypothesis is strong enough on its own, what of it if one of its earlier proponents has lost his way? Every year it seems more researchers recognize that the steppe hypothesis simply doesn't account for the pertinent facts. And you, yourself, in one sentence claim the Anatolian hypothesis is dead and buried, but then a couple of sentences later acknowledge a consensus for the original language emanating from an Anatolian origin. I'm having troubles following the contradiction between these two statements, so if I've misunderstood you, I hope you might clarify.

But if it were merely Greek, or Italic, or some other branch of the family that were in question, then it might be possible to dismiss the situation as merely "an unexplained anomaly." But the fact that the Anatolian branch retains so many of the oldest and fundamental features reconstructed back to the original proto-language, such that cladistically it is half of the entire IE language family and is widely recognized as being the oldest branch, it makes it awfully hard to overlook that there is an enormous explanation for the situation, which is the entire Anatolian hypothesis. It is hardly merely an anomaly.

Regarding horses, a 2021 study by Pablo Librado and others titled "The origin and spread of domestic horses from the western Eurasian steppes" concluded that horses were domesticated perhaps around 3500 BC or so, but were apparently limited to the steppes in their range until around 2200 BC when they begin appearing elsewhere through Europe and Asia. If these observations are accurate, any purportedly IE groups identified outside of the steppe regions prior to around 2200 BC would not have been horse riders.
 
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All sources I can remember state the Cimmerians were an unrelated people, or foreigners.
Really so? Aah, but then the way I understand it both the sources posted below link them to Indo-Iranians.
 
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.. or why any of those cultures wouldn't be even more specifically Indic or Iranian, ..
(IMHO) They were not that way initially. They turned out to be so in their travels. BMAC.
 
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The problem with the anatolian hypothesis is that it is also the homeland of the neolithic farmer cultures, while the indo-europeans were clearly horse riding nomads.
It looks very unlikely that horse riding nomads originated in the same area where farmers lived for thousands of years.
The problem with Anatolian hypothesis is that they were not worshiping Dyavah/Zeus, Ouranos/Varun, Perun/Indra/Thor, etc.
I do not see any problem with herders on horses engaging in agriculture. All they needed to do was to spread the seeds.

Iranian nomads sowing and reaping wheat out of a stony earth. The Aryan cereal was barley (Yava). We still offer that to Gods in our fire-sacrifices (Yajnas).
Barley is sown in October to November and harvested from March to April. Winter months and lower altitudes. In summers the nomads move to higher elevations.
Allah is bountiful, 'Rehman'. :)
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Tarhunt/Tarhunz (Luwian), or Tarhun/Tarhunna (Hittite) sounds relatively close to Thor (Scandic) and Tiras (Thracian), and might possibly hv been the inspiration for the latter two.
 
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The problem with Anatolian hypothesis is that they were not worshiping Dyavah/Zeus, Ouranos/Varun, Perun/Indra/Thor, etc.
Aah, but then not all deities, including IE deities, were indigenous to their people from the very beginning. For example Eostre the Germanic goddess likely ultimately derived from Ishtar the Assyrian goddess, who was in turn adopted and adapted from Inanna of the Sumerians.

I hv read that some writers hv even postulated a link between Zeus and Teshub, the Hurrian sky/weather god who first became Tarhunt or Tarhun in the Hittite pantheon.
 
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Tarhunt/Tarhunz (Luwian), or Tarhun/Tarhunna (Hittite) sounds relatively close to Thor (Scandic) and Tiras (Thracian), and might possibly have been the inspiration for the latter two.
Indian Aryans had Twastr. Sure, they were Indo-Europeans but perhaps separated from the main mass early and mixed up with wrong people. ;)
Aah, but then not all deities, including IE deities, were indigenous to their people from the very beginning. For example Eostre the Germanic goddess likely ultimately derived from Ishtar the Assyrian goddess, who was in turn adopted and adapted from Inanna of the Sumerians.
That I may not agree with, the resplendant colorful Eostre (Indian Ushas, Dawns) had a very specific association with rising sun, and was not Hera or Prithivi, the Mother Goddess (IMHO).
 
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The problem with Anatolian hypothesis is that they were not worshiping Dyavah/Zeus, Ouranos/Varun, Perun/Indra/Thor, etc.
I do not see any problem with herders on horses engaging in agriculture. All they needed to do was to spread the seeds.

Iranian nomads sowing and reaping wheat out of a stony earth. The Aryan cereal was barley (Yava). We still offer that to Gods in our fire-sacrifices (Yajnas).
Barley is sown in October to November and harvested from March to April. Winter months and lower altitudes. In summers the nomads move to higher elevations.
Allah is bountiful, 'Rehman'. :)
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There are numerous examples in history, when horse riding nomads became sedentary and started farming and built civilisations, Greeks being one of them. I don't know one example of the opposite happening.

Also the Hittites in Anatolia are recorder between 1600 and 1200 BCE, there was plenty of time for them to separate sometimes after 3500 BCE and wander into Anatolia. There are even specific archaeological candidates for that.
 
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Really so? Aah, but then the way I understand it both the sources posted below link them to Indo-Iranians.
Cestrinus was the first king of the Cimmerians in Crimea, his father was Helenus I, king of Epirus, his father was Priam I of Troy. In 443 BC Antenor II moved them to the Rhine, where they took the name of Sicambri. Around 600 BC, another tribe of Cimmerians did go to Persian and later Pakistan. These were the Sugambri captured by Alexander of Macedon. These are thought to be the predecessors of the Heruli. The ancestors of Priam claim to originate around the Tyrrhenian Sea before Dardanus settled in Thrace. The Cimmerians only occupied the Pontic Steppes for roughly 300 years before descending into Anatolia.
 
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Renfrew's actual statements as far as I'm aware have been grossly misrepresented. While he acknowledged that there was merit to the steppes being integral to the history of IE languages in some way, he never actually denounced the Anatolian hypothesis, and merely left it that the whole situation was much more complex than anyone has comprehended. And this was in a lecture in honor of Marija Gimbutas, so he's hardly going to go off on any argument aggressively refuting her theories.

But the Anatolian hypothesis is strong enough on its own, what of it if one of its earlier proponents has lost his way? Every year it seems more researchers recognize that the steppe hypothesis simply doesn't account for the pertinent facts. And you, yourself, in one sentence claim the Anatolian hypothesis is dead and buried, but then a couple of sentences later acknowledge a consensus for the original language emanating from an Anatolian origin. I'm having troubles following the contradiction between these two statements, so if I've misunderstood you, I hope you might clarify.

But if it were merely Greek, or Italic, or some other branch of the family that were in question, then it might be possible to dismiss the situation as merely "an unexplained anomaly." But the fact that the Anatolian branch retains so many of the oldest and fundamental features reconstructed back to the original proto-language, such that cladistically it is half of the entire IE language family and is widely recognized as being the oldest branch, it makes it awfully hard to overlook that there is an enormous explanation for the situation, which is the entire Anatolian hypothesis. It is hardly merely an anomaly.

Regarding horses, a 2021 study by Pablo Librado and others titled "The origin and spread of domestic horses from the western Eurasian steppes" concluded that horses were domesticated perhaps around 3500 BC or so, but were apparently limited to the steppes in their range until around 2200 BC when they begin appearing elsewhere through Europe and Asia. If these observations are accurate, any purportedly IE groups identified outside of the steppe regions prior to around 2200 BC would not have been horse riders.

Well both professors spoke at the Marija Gimbutas lecture. Here is Petra B.. 's contribution:



Its a rather jerky lecture but (to me at least) its seems that she supports the Steppe Hypothesis for expansion of the IE language. She is clearer in her written submissions which I can post up.

With regard to Renfrew, I doubt he that he would drop his lifetime support for the Anatolian Hypothesis to honour MG specifically in this lecture. In his lecture he seems clear that he supports that the main vector for the expansion of the IE language across Eurasia was the success of the Yamna of the Steppe and its offspring. However, he points out (as do you - I agree BTW) that there are many unanswered questions concerning the Anatolian languages and archaeology and that Anatolia could still be the site of the original homeland. I can dig out the Refrew video but it has been widely discussed already on this website (and I am sure you have viewed it)

This contention, however, is miles away from his former adherence to the Anatolian Hypothesis, which has its central theme that Neolithic farming was the key vector in the spread of IE languages across Europe to the outer reaches of Ireland. This expansion of the language came with the intrusion of the Steppe horseman.

It comes as no surprise that the exploitation of the horse was limited to the Steppe initially. A horse gives a pastoralist a huge productivity improvement, resulting in control a herd of sheep or cattle more than five times as large as a man on foot.
Lets not forget that except in exceptional areas of the World such as the Nile Valley, Mesopotamia, Murghab fan, Indus etc farming was incredibly inefficient and productivity very low and really not much improved with horse power. So we see the "sophisticated cultures" of Egypt, Middle East, China and India only importing the horse (from the Steppe) in huge numbers in conjunction with the newly invented Chariot, a decisive battle winner and prestige object.
 
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There are numerous examples in history, when horse riding nomads became sedentary and started farming and built civilisations, Greeks being one of them. I don't know one example of the opposite happening.
What I mean is that generally people do not depend on just milk and meat, they need cereals, beans, lentils too. So, herders also engage in agriculture.

As for the IE people, RigVeda says that they were originally from within the Arctic Circle before the ice-age set in. They came to Yamnaya for refuge.
But please note, they had nothing to do with Hinduism, which is a mix of indigenous religious thoughts of India (of course, Aryan thoughts were later incorporated in it).

I differ with one particular line in the Wikipedia article, which I do not think Tilak ever mentioned:
"In the early geological ages, the Alps were low, the Himalayas not yet upheaved, .."
* Alps and Himalayas had nothing to do with the proposed migration of IE people from within the Arctic Circle to Volga delta. Both were out of the way. IE may have crossed Urals which are not much of a mountain. Himalayas came up 50 million years ago when no humans but only Haplorhines existed (Dry-nosed Primates).

220px-Chapultepec_Zoo_-_Hamadryas_baboon.jpg
Hamadryas baboon (Haplorhini - Wikipedia)
 
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As for the IE people, RigVeda says that they were originally from within the Arctic Circle before the ice-age set in. They came to Yamnaya for refuge.
BG 8.23-26: I shall now describe to you the different paths of passing away from this world, O best of the Bharatas, one of which leads to liberation and the other leads to rebirth. Those who know the Supreme Brahman and who depart from this world, during the six months of the sun's northern course, the bright fortnight of the moon, and the bright part of the day, attain the supreme destination. The practitioners of Vedic rituals, who pass away during the six months of the sun's southern course, the dark fortnight of the moon, the time of smoke, the night, attain the celestial abodes. After enjoying celestial pleasures, they again return to the earth. These two, bright and dark paths, always exist in this world. The way of light leads to liberation and the way of darkness leads to rebirth.

It is a curious passage. If taken literally, it is reffering to this obscure area:IMG_1850.png
 
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FLK

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All sources I can remember state the Cimmerians were an unrelated people, or foreigners. Which highlights the point that places are not peoples. fwiw the origin of "PIE" languages is most likely Crete. Where the people originate from is probably everywhere, most of them from Sumeria I would imagine. Who buried the pottery in the Steppes is probably a people long gone or replaced in the male line.
What is the thought behind identifying Crete as the origin of PIE languages? I haven’t heard this idea before.
 
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What is the thought behind identifying Crete as the origin of PIE languages? I haven't heard this idea before.
PIE does not exist. It is also unlikely the people in that region of PIE during the bronze age collapse were the same people in the region 1000 years prior. Classifications like Indo-European or Semitic are very misleading. What does exist is evidence of Linear A leading to Linear B, and Linear B leading to Phoenician and most likely Tyrsenian languages. It is hard to find a continuous language from a different source, relating to "Indo-European" peoples. I just do not see the evidence of PIE existing. Those classifications come from late 19th Century Germans, which is not saying a lot. Germans think the world began in the 6th Century. They search for a history that is not their own, to replace the history that is their own. They can dig up all the pottery of conquered people they want, wont find a Urheimat there.
 
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FLK

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The problem with Anatolian hypothesis is that they were not worshiping Dyavah/Zeus, Ouranos/Varun, Perun/Indra/Thor, etc.
I've always been leery of efforts trying to generalize a common religion or myth back for the entire IE family. Religion and myth to me seem like they're always constantly changing, and crossing over cultural divides. The Tocharian languages, for example, are thought to be the oldest among the non-Anatolian branch, yet when they're encountered in the historical record, it seems that they they turn out to be Buddhists. At least for them, there is some historical context. For prehistoric scenarios, though, it seems like everything is just a chicken-and-the-egg guessing game. Yes, I can recognize that maybe a few language families do seem to have some common mythological motifs, but the question that always occurs to me when someone mentions this is how far those motifs span across other non-IE traditions as well. I think I've read somewhere that the whole phenomenon of kurgan burial mounds originated from the Caucasus where the oldest such features are found. Yet while kurgans are supposedly to be associated with the expansion of IE peoples from the steppes, the Caucasus are decidedly a bastion of multiple non-IE languages groups.

But if figures such as Zeus, Varun, Thor, etc. can only be reconstructed for some of the language families, but not others (such as Hittite/Luwian/Palaic), then perhaps they only arose at the point in history when those languages were already separate. Or perhaps they were merely introduced from an external source across a subset of certain IE languages. I don't know if it has much bearing on the overall direction the IE languages might have been spreading. The IE languages spread out across a lot of different cultures, and were introduced to lots of new people along the way. It seems only natural that religions among them would vary and change as well.
 

FLK

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I do not see any problem with herders on horses engaging in agriculture. All they needed to do was to spread the seeds.
I agree with you. I think that the pastoral/nomadic aspect of some of the cultures relevant to the whole topic is overstated and given a lot more weight than is due. It seems to be forgotten that Neolithic pioneers kept livestock together alongside growing crops. It's been found that neolithic farmers used a strategy of diversification when settling in new areas. It is thought that they would bring a wide range of seeds with them, but that they relied on livestock as security until it was established which type of crops were most suited in new environments.

It makes sense that as farmers expanded farther north and east into the steppes, reliance on livestock would gradually increase, but crop production was never completely abandoned by the cultures in question. The broadly general picture of the zone spanning from the area of Moldova in the west to the Caspian drainage basin in the east seems to be a gradient of very large communities in the west greatly reliant on cultivation, but with livestock also forming an important part of the economy, to the gradually decreasing size of such centers, and increasing distance between them as one proceeds eastward, with stock breeding gradually increasing in importance. But as a rule of thumb, heavily pastoral communities would be very sparse in population over extremely wide areas.

To draw a quote from a generic book on the topic by JP Mallory: "Even in such areas as the Dnieper, Ukrainian archaeologists argue that such sites as Mikhaylovka may have served as centers on which camp sites of semi-nomadic pastoralists depended. The general picture of the Yamnaya economy is varied and dependent on the natural conditions in which its populations found themselves. In the major river valleys, where agricultural soils and forested environment provided the necessary basis for mixed farming settlements, the Yamnaya culture appears to have followed such an economy. Nevertheless, the increased development of stock breeding, especially the utilization of both the sheep and domestic horse, assisted in the expansion of human settlement out from the river valleys into the deep steppe."

Apparently there may be something of a bias in describing these cultures since most of the known archaeological sites are burials, and settlements are much more scarcely to be found. But significantly, among the ceramics, copper knives, and scrapers typically found among grave goods, characteristic tools also included flint sickle blades and harpoons. Sickle blades seem pretty indicative of crop cultivation, and their inclusion among grave goods ought to attest to the importance of that economic activity. And harpoons as potentially a fishing implement ought to caution anyone against pigeonholing these cultures into only a single economic activity.

So in broad terms, it seems to me that a picture of established agriculture communities that served as economic centers for wide hinterlands sparsely populated with pastoral herders might be more of an apt model to describe these cultures, than only characterizing them as horse riding herders ranging back and forth across the grasslands without any greater economic focus.
 
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